My horse has been diagnosed with navicular Help!!!

[Tiffany]

Can I just say I have nothing against barefoot but it doesn't work for every horse and condition. No matter what the product or service the cases that didn't work aren't generally published.

I now know people who have horses that were diagnosed with navicular months/years ago. Some are doing better than others. What's more there's a mix of shod and barefoot which supports my 'personal' view that what works for one does not work for all.

I'm still researching all options because this is about whats best for my horse not what's easiest for me. I want my girl to be happy and painfree for as long as possible.

 

[Oberon]

Forgot to mention, said horse on my yard had changes to his navicular bones on Xray when he was first diagnosed.

 

[Fauvea]

Seems I'm always posting this article those days. Great article on navicular with recent research explained:
http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.htm

 

[Tiffany]

Forgot to mention, said horse on my yard had changes to his navicular bones on Xray when he was first diagnosed.

As I said I'm really pleased for horse and owner.

 

[Fauvea]

Sorry we'll have to disagree. Navicular of the navicular bone only is not the same as navicular syndrome. Also, my vet is certainly not against barefoot either although it's a mangement style the same as remedial shoeing and neither management style can reverse the condition.

When we talk about navicular, it's always navicular syndrome (with or without associated navicular bone change). What is reversed is the unsoundness due to toe first landing. Putting shoes does not reverse the unsoundness, it hides it.


"We’ve known for many years that horses can have serious caudal foot pain and no changes to the navicular bone. We’ve also known for many years that horses can have dramatic changes to the navicular bone, but show no lameness. Dr. Rooney proved and published that it was actually the unnatural toe first movement (usually caused by avoiding heel pain) that causes navicular remodeling; not the other way around as most professionals thought."
http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.htm

 

[cptrayes]

Can I just say I have nothing against barefoot but it doesn't work for every horse and condition. No matter what the product or service the cases that didn't work aren't generally published.

Rockley Farm publishes each horse's story in full detail and follows up over time. It's all on their blog and their website. There have been a small number of horses which they could not cure, but none which they did not significantly improve and return to a level of work. About 80% have returned to full work, hunting, jumping, eventing etc, which is nothing less than stunning when you consider that almost all of them were still unsound after remedial shoes and a number of medications.

I know of one failure near me and the horse has a bone spur on one navicular bone, which I think probably cannot be resolved. I also know of three barefoot horses who have developed navicular spectrum lameness, and those have all been horses with feet so strong that they were allowed by their trimmers to grow a "shoe" which loaded the foot peripherally and took the frog out of contact with the ground.

With the frog returned to the ground two of those horses are sound (though one struggles with too much grass in its diet) and the third is still in rehab but walk, trot canter sound less than a month after one of the country's leading horse hospitals warned that it was unlikely ever to return to work, such was the damage visible on its navicular bones.

Of course not all foot lameness can be cured by a barefoot rehab. But there is also more to a barefoot rehab than removing shoes, and I would want to know far more about any non-complicated (ie no bone spurs, arthritis, etc) "navicular spectrum" lame horse who has not come sound with a barefoot rehab before I would believe that it could not have been helped. There is no point, for example, in taking off the shoes to cure the horse if it is not given a diet which allows it to grow strong enough feet to mend itself, which is probably the commonest reason for any barefoot failure, not just rehabs. Rehabs can also grow very odd looking "imbalances" in their feet for a while as they adjust, and if the trimmer puts those imbalances "right", as many farriers and some trimmers will have been taught to do, the horse will probably stay unsound.

The rockley blog is an absolute gem of photographic, video and text information about rehabbing lame horses. Thoroughly recommended reading for hoof anoraks

 

[Tiffany]

Seems I'm always posting this article those days. Great article on navicular with recent research explained:
http://www.hoofrehab.com/NavicularSyndrome.htm

Thanks Fauvea - very interesting read. Only read quickly but will print off and read through again. The bit I found most interesting from my first read is foillowing.....

In thousands of dead horses he examined, Dr. Rooney found that the fibrocartilages surrounding the flexor tendon and the navicular bone were ALWAYS damaged if bone remodeling was present. He found not one single case in which the damage to the bone was beginning, and the cartilages at the interface between the navicular bone and the deep flexor tendon were not yet damaged. Not one case in thousands. Read this again if your eyebrows didn’t go up.

Nothing showed on x-rays and I've been told MRI scan showed no damage to anything but the navicular bone?

 

[Oberon]

Thanks for that article.

I know this stuff is floating around but I can never find it

 

[cptrayes]

I don't know of any research that says you can reverse bone damage? If the ligaments/tendons over and around the navicular bone are damaged then yes they can repair and the horse will become sound. My horse doesn't have any ligament damage it's purely a bone problem. (albeit slight) He's also recommended barefoot for some horses and conditions but doesn't think it's the best route for my girl.

Tiffany has your horse been MRI'd and shown no ligament or tendon damage at all? If so, she's quite a rare case and you are unlucky. I hope she continues to do well for you. (I see we have cross posted and you have just answered this question) It might be worthwhile you asking for a second opinion on the MRI. I know of a horse which has just been diagnosed by a leading teaching hospital and they were so fixated on the very signifcant bone changes that they completely disregarded both collateral ligament damage and ddft damage that were seen by a second vet) The horse concerned is sound after less than a month, when the hospital said that there was little chance of him ever working again. The family had even sorted out a life for him as a paddock ornament until I told them about a rehab.

Nic Barker xrayed her horse Ghost after a few years barefoot and his navicular bones had remodelled. A sample of one is not big enough of course, but I believe it's probably quite common. It's pretty irrelevant anyway, because it's not the bone causing the lameness in the vast majority of navicular spectrum lameness, it's the soft tissue.

 

[Tiffany]

CPTRAYES - some interesting info there - thanks!

My girl has always had flat feet and low heels, only ever shod on front and had never been lame until a certain farrier shod her. She went lame immediately and in my view has never been quite the same since. Could just be coincidence I suppose?

I see horses competing that are more noticeably unlevel than my girl was before MRI and heard riders say their horses have always been the same?

I just want to do the best for her so won't dismiss anything that could help.

Off to bed now - night

 

[Tiffany]

Tiffany has your horse been MRI'd and shown no ligament or tendon damage at all? If so, she's quite a rare case and you are unlucky. I hope she continues to do well for you. (I see we have cross posted and you have just answered this question)

Nic Barker xrayed her horse Ghost after a few years barefoot and his navicular bones had remodelled. A sample of one is not big enough of course, but I believe it's probably quite common. It's pretty irrelevant anyway, because it's not the bone causing the lameness in the vast majority of navicular spectrum lameness, it's the soft tissue.

Interesting you say I'm unlucky, vet said I'm lucky? It's all so confusing.

 

[cptrayes]

Interesting you say I'm unlucky, vet said I'm lucky? It's all so confusing.

I'm not sure why your vet thinks you're lucky. I suppose because there is only minor damage to the navicular. But in reality you don't have an answer to why your horse is lame, because plenty of horses will have that damage and be sound. I think you are unlucky because soft tissue damage is pretty easily fixable, and yet your horse apparently has none, so can't be fixed. Anyway, you have a way of managing her that suits you both, and I hope that continues for her. If it doesn't, you can always try barefoot as a last resort.

Oooh, I have just read your post "flat feet and low heels" - just the conformation that causes that kind of lameness and heels that can be rebuilt with proper stimulation and nutrition. The trouble is, I suppose, that she is sound enough for you now and you have nothing to gain by trying to change anything. It's a tough call, I feel for you.

 

[jeeve]

vets always advise shoes - get some reccomendations for a really good barefoot trimmer, also, read the book natural horse care by pat coleby

navicular is often misdiagnosed and it often is a preventable /curable with correct trimming and mineral balance

shoes are part of the cause of navicular like symptoms, not the cure

 

[Pale Rider]

I have really enjoyed this thread so far. The blind faith in the vet, who is both out of date and a bit thick by the sound of it.
The frustration shines through of the posters, offering links to the latest available info.
The stolid reaction of the owner, whose blind faith unshaken replies 'my vet says'
Gripping stuff.

Pity there is s horse there who will be lame, and PTS before it's time.

 

[Oberon]

But it is important not to make anyone feel bullied into considering barefoot. Or that they are doing wrong by following a traditional route.

If I didn't know what I do about barefoot, I wouldn't listen to a bunch of random posters on a forum over my own vet either.

And the scientific evidence we have is tenuous at best

A trimmer I had once said it's a bit like being a Jehovah's Witness. You are 100% convinced you are saving people from oblivion by spreading their message.

Everyone else thinks you're a nutter.....

(P.S. I am an athiest - but do not mean to offend anyone's religion at all, I just thought it was a great comparison).

When the horse from my yard was diagnosed, I did mention barefoot but the owners weren't ready to hear it.

Eventually they were ready - and the horse is now sound.
His story http://www.progressivehorse.co.uk/html/shoko.html

People will consider other options when they are ready, despite what we say in here.

If we hassle and alienate people, it will make it harder.

 

[Bluecat]

Hi sorry only just got to chance to read alot of the replies. Very interesting seeing the differing opinions. Tiffany my horse also has very flat feet and cannot cope at all if he loses a shoe. I do understand that barefoot could help this but we tried barefoot with another of my horses (he doesnt have navicular)and he really struggled so i think we will follow the vet and farriers advice first and see how we go. I only want him to be able to do light schooling and walking out on hacks and dont intend to jump him again. So as long as he isnt suffering and vet route keeps him comfortable will go with that if it doesnt will try barefoot.Thanks for the advice tho.

 

[Bluecat]

To those who go barefoot.do you stil get the vet to monitor the navicular to check its not progressed 2 much?

 

[Oberon]

To those who go barefoot.do you stil get the vet to monitor the navicular to check its not progressed 2 much?

My friend's horse has never needed to see the vet since the shoes came off (2 years).

He's seen a McTimoney a few times for bodywork and also for saddle fitting issues since going back into full work (now fixed by Lavinia Mitchell).

But he's never been lame, so never needed the vet.

He's competing dressage with the wife and jumping with the husband

 

[Tiffany]

I have really enjoyed this thread so far. The blind faith in the vet, who is both out of date and a bit thick by the sound of it.
The frustration shines through of the posters, offering links to the latest available info.
The stolid reaction of the owner, whose blind faith unshaken replies 'my vet says'
Gripping stuff.

Pity there is s horse there who will be lame, and PTS before it's time.

There's nothing like helpful, constructive comments and yours was nothing like it

 

[Tiffany]

I'm not sure why your vet thinks you're lucky. I suppose because there is only minor damage to the navicular. But in reality you don't have an answer to why your horse is lame, because plenty of horses will have that damage and be sound. I think you are unlucky because soft tissue damage is pretty easily fixable, and yet your horse apparently has none, so can't be fixed. Anyway, you have a way of managing her that suits you both, and I hope that continues for her. If it doesn't, you can always try barefoot as a last resort.

Oooh, I have just read your post "flat feet and low heels" - just the conformation that causes that kind of lameness and heels that can be rebuilt with proper stimulation and nutrition. The trouble is, I suppose, that she is sound enough for you now and you have nothing to gain by trying to change anything. It's a tough call, I feel for you.

Thanks for all info

 

[Tiffany]

CPTRAYES - forgot to mention there's another horse I know that's got similar symptoms to my girl although she is barefoot and on bute - would you normally put them on bute to start with?

 

[Natch]

Please... spend the time researching navicular, the shoes treatment, the injections (cortisone, tildren...) and the barefoot treatment.

Have a think about the whys and wherefores as to why different groups of people say different things.

Make up your own mind.

It is too complicated and too important an issue not to do your own research.

My stance? I have researched it a lot myself, and I would go the barefoot rehab route.

TIFFANY - Rockley Farm website really does have the answers to your questions