My horse has raised liver enzymes so worried

[smokeyjo]

Hi flaxen tail. No, I haven't done a liver fluke wormer - had never even heard of it before this thread. I assumed that my boy's liver enzymes were raised because he had been on 1 x Danilon a day for the last 6 years (low ringbone), although I chose Danilon because it is supposed to be kinder to the stomach and liver.

He has also been on quite a high oil diet for the past year or so to try and keep condition on him (now looking like a management mistake doh!!).

Interesting to hear about the 19yr old Welsh D; mine is a 27yr old Welsh D. Like you I am reluctant to throw too much at him. Do you think the turmeric has benefitted your other horse? (that's probably another thread though)

In spite of being 27 he still seems so well in himself - came cantering up the field today for his pm feed, so i really want to do the best for him. We'll both have more answers to post in January. Good luck for then.

 

[flaxen tail]

Oh I wonder if the danilon and high oil is the cause for you then especially the oil in a native I have read they shouldnt have too much as it causes fatty liver and makes the liver work too hard, hes a very good age though. The welsh d I feed the turmeric too is 16 and has IR. Turmeric may help in that it has a similar effect to metformin also its anti inflammatory and IR horses systems are a bit inflamed plus she wasnt tracking up properly on the right hind is reluctant to pick it up this has all improved.She loves turmeric I only feed it once a day and could easily up the dose ,yes I think it has benefitted her. I take it as well and used to live on ibrufen cant remember the last time I took any .Yes January lets hope for good news.

 

[smokeyjo]

Oh I wonder if the danilon and high oil is the cause for you then especially the oil in a native I have read they shouldnt have too much as it causes fatty liver and makes the liver work too hard, hes a very good age though. The welsh d I feed the turmeric too is 16 and has IR. Turmeric may help in that it has a similar effect to metformin also its anti inflammatory and IR horses systems are a bit inflamed plus she wasnt tracking up properly on the right hind is reluctant to pick it up this has all improved.She loves turmeric I only feed it once a day and could easily up the dose ,yes I think it has benefitted her. I take it as well and used to live on ibrufen cant remember the last time I took any .Yes January lets hope for good news.

Do you mind if I ask your 'recipe' for feeding turmeric to the IR horse?

How much oil do you use, and do you use freshly ground black pepper?

I'm thinking that if the enzyme levels are down in January (a big 'if') i'd like to investigate turmeric. It's great to hear that you've been using it too.

Seem to be going a bit off-topic here, but it's all such useful information. I've learned a huge amount from all the contributions to this thread and am very appreciative.

 

[flaxen tail]

I feed her a tablespoon of turmeric in her morning feed just before feeding it you have to freshly grind black pepper about 10 grinds into the feed and I put 3 tablespoons of micronised linseed in . The piperine in the blackpepper is needed to help the curcumin in the turmeric absorb and the linseed slows down the passage of the turmeric through the gut. Sometimes I leave out linseed as natives are not supposed to have oil every day. The turmeric must have 3 percent curcumin as this is the active ingredient, some turmeric has had it removed to be put into capsules . Thunderbrooks sell turmeric human food grade and guarantee the curcumin content.People are having good results with all sorts of things arthritis ,sarcoids, just general pain relief. I put boswellia in with her feed as well. There is no exact amount of turmeric just start at a teaspoon introduce slowly and if you see results stay with that amount or if not increase . Some horses go spooky in the first 2 weeks on it. My mare is the calmest she has ever been ,.I f a horse has ulcers though you have to resolve those first then use it after. The horses on it tend to get really shiny coats .there is a ratio people use as a guide I think its 3 times more linseed than turmeric but I tend to do what feels right.The facebook Turmeric Users group is good lots of info and well worth joining .It does seem from what ive read on there that turmeric is beneficial for the liver one girl was advised to have her horse PTS but shes now riding him and hes doing well.

 

[smokeyjo]

That's brilliant flaxen tail. Thanks so much. Am going to print your info out and keep to hand for the time when I might be able to give it a go.

 

[smokeyjo]

I am posting again on this thread because my horse - who had raised liver enzymes at the same time as the OP has been re-tested after 6 weeks

During that time he has been on a 'new' diet consisting mainly of 1 scoop Fast Fibre and 1 scp Happy Hoof with half a scoop of Speedibeet (when soaked). This has been his feed 2 x per day, with the addition of Milk Thistle + a liver tonic (Hepalyte 105) and Global Herbs Restore when the Hepalyte ran out.

Blood test results last week revealed that 2 of the raised liver enzymes were down, but the most important one (GGT) had gone up a little bit:-

AST originally 601. Retest last week was 272 (should be less than 420)

GGT originally 375. Retest last week was 379 (should be less than 49)

AP originally 615. Retest last week was 467 (should be less than 362)

Vet has now put him on a 3 wk course of antibiotics. He has also been wormed for tapeworm (blood test showed that he needed to be, although he has always been properly wormed since I bought him aged 6) Vet has also prescribed a different tonic (it's a custom-made one for vet I think)

My main anxiety at the moment is weight loss, in spite of the fact that he has a fantastic appetite and is very well in himself, he seems to be dropping off at an alarming rate, especially top-line

I'm hoping that your mare is progressing well flaxen tail. A horrible time of year to know that your horse is struggling with a metabolic problem. I'll post another update after the next blood test in about 6 weeks just in case it helps anyone else. I know that I have really benefitted from all the archived info on here (especially Box-Of-Frogs, a wonderful liver guru. Thank you)

 

[smokeyjo]

PS meant to say that he lives out 24/7 with plenty of grazing/hay and good rugs - just in case the Fast Fibre and Happy Hoof sounded like a bit of a miserable inadequate ration:-(

 

[flaxen tail]

Hi Smokey Jo, so sorry you didnt get better news in the blood tests and they are not back in the normal range, I know there is one result that goes up during healing but to be honest I struggle to make sense of the results they need an expert eye. I was so lucky Debbie at equine science got me to send my results to her and her scientist read them. My mare is looking and behaving fantastic dappled coat really shiny, I am getting her blood test again next week I know even though she now looks good its not a guarantee her enzymes will be normal . I am sorry your horse is loosing weight even though you dosed for tapes, is there any chance it could also be liver fluke . So far I have treated for liver fluke , tapes and encysted redworm plus the liver supplements ,I guess your vet is giving antibiotics as something in the result shows infection. Would ulcers be likely . When I have finished the liver supplements I have got Mycosorb a I dont think it can do any harm. When i get the next test results if her bile duct is still clear I may give turmeric (its my other mare that has turmeric she loves it) . Feel so sorry about your results I may be in the same boat soon when I get mine.

 

[brucea]

I don't know much about mycotoxins but there's a really interesting thread about it on Phoenix Horse Forum here http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/ftopic7262-0-asc-0.php
With liver enzymes raised I'd be wary of giving anything at the moment that might put the liver under additional strain, so that means chemical wormers, vaccinations, high oil feeds etc. What liver tonic is it? Sometimes you're better off just buying whole or ground milk thistle seed on it's own, I often think the more they process something the less good stuff is left in it.
Is there anything else in the field she might be eating?

And as the Phoenix horse forum Admin I have made it open to read for non registered users

 

[flaxen tail]

Brucea thank you so much for that link to the mycotoxin and mycosorb thread have been reading it ,such a lot of info some very sad heartbreaking cases where people have lost their horses . I am going to feed mycosorb a to mine . Thank you very much it was very interesting.

 

[flaxen tail]

Well I am not getting another blood test as vet pleased with her progress and demeanor and her appearance so I can slowly bring her back into work and see how we go. I am relieved and cautiously happy , look forward to your next update smokey jo and fingers crossed for a good outcome I know how worrying it is.

 

[smokeyjo]

Well I am not getting another blood test as vet pleased with her progress and demeanor and her appearance so I can slowly bring her back into work and see how we go. I am relieved and cautiously happy , look forward to your next update smokey jo and fingers crossed for a good outcome I know how worrying it is.

I'm so pleased to read this flaxen tail, especially as your girl is so young. I've just re-read this whole thread and there has been so much useful advice on it.

For my horse the vet thought no to liver fluke as there have never been sheep in the field, and the ground is too dry. He has also discounted toxins as all the other horses in the field are healthy, The unexpected worm burden (tapes) may have been a factor and I'm getting him tested for encysted worms at the next blood-test. I'm hoping though that I can go without worming again until he is more recovered - the fewer chemicals I put in him the better - although you obviously gave your girl all the treatments you could with an excellent result.

I'm half way through the 3 wk course of antibiotics at the moment, and he seems to have stopped dropping off, but still looks too thin. I've tried starting him on yeast-sacc, which I've read is good for horses with liver problems, but he doesn't like it at all, so at the moment my non-riding time is spent making marmite sandwiches to hide the powder in! I'll probably update after my next blood tests, as I always like reading other peoples progress. Good luck for the future.

 

[flaxen tail]

Hi smokey Jo , I agree about chemicals to which end I did a saliva test for tapes first which was negative ,just by chance I asked the vet when she took bloods if she had enough to test for tapes as well and she did,it came back positive so in the end I had to use equitape which apparently is the one that does all 3 types of tape and they were then seen in the manure. This is just my thoughts now but tapes where they latch on to the horse cause a sore or ulcer so may need to treat for that as ulcers will cause weight loss. Hoping for the best for you and your horse ,milk thistle also good for liver issues .