My horse hates me...

unicorndreams said:
Have a look at clicker training - in particular look up Maxine Easey who is really good at remedial issues using these 'positive reinforcement' techniques. i don't think you'd have much luck with natural horsemanship aka parelli as they tend to use negative reinforcement which might turn your sensitive mare off further. It sounds like she has been 'flooded' (over-faced) at some point in her early training and hence does not associate humans approaching her with a positive experience even though you have always been nice to her she has 'historic learnings' that perhaps make it hard to believe you will always be so.
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Natural Horsemanship is a great deal more than, and different from, Parelli. It includes clicker training, reinforcement training, behavioural work, Mark Rashid, Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks - in other words, any training method that works with the horses nature instead of forcing them to comply with our rules.
OP, whatever you have been doing for 5 years has got you not very far - you know the saying, if you do what you always did you will get what youi always got etc. Time to change tack, and get some help from someone who can look at what you are doing and tell you what your horse is learning from you? These people aren't very expensive as a rule and can often pick up on something you just got used to and give you "homework" to carry on with. http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/specialist-horse-training.html Where are you?
For now, bear in mind the principles of reinforcement, on which clicker training is based. Whatever behaviour is followed by something the horse likes is likely to be repeated, and whatever is followed by something the horse dislikes is likely never to reappear. So look at they way you interact and what sort of reinforcement she gets from it. And no, horses don't hate. They fear, mistrust, learn but they don't hate.
 
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It was alot more than 5 years before my horse was even the teensiest bit affectionate to me. She was cheeky and enjoyed playing tricks on me but go to give her a cuddle and you could just forget it. I always suspected that she had had a lot of owners in her past (I never found out the first thing about her, not even her name) and that she had learned not to let that barrier down where humans were concerned. In many ways she was very very close to me but just not affectionate or wanting affection. For many years she wouldn't even stay lying down in her stable if I went in even. I think it could well be a girl thing in many cases, and its a bit like cats - some can't wait to jump on your lap while others expect you to serve them then ignore you completely, despite all your best efforts. I'm glad to say though, that by the end of her life she was extremely affectionate, and if I had been away for a couple of days would come over to me and lean her forehead into my chest and just stay there.
 
You have my sympathy - we've got a gelding who acts a bit like this sometimes, with everyone not just one person. Some days, you just can't catch him, he gallops off if you get close. Other days, he'll come merrily over for attention. What's she like if you go away, then come back a little later? This can work with ours, it's like he's completely forgotten that he ran away from us 10 minutes earlier. He's not the sharpest tool in the box, though :)
 
Mine was like this, acted terrified of me, so I treated her verrrrry carefully and nicely we got nowhere for months. I eventually got sick of it and stopped pussyfooting around her, sent her away if she came near me and generally acted like a grumpy boss mare who didn't want her around. Now, we're best buds and I can catch her easy peasy, scratch her all over loose and she will even groom me back!
 
when i first read your post i thought it sounded very extreme and something is seriously wrong... however, having read what you have said since, i would not actually be that worried!
however, i also would not rule out a form of abuse at some point in her past, or at least 'miss-handling'. my mare had a loving home with her last owner, went on loan to someone, and basically flipped within 3 months into a crazy, snorting, scared horse. a physio came to see her some months later (i was looking after her as she had been abandoned by the loaner at my yard) and found a massive sore patch on the left hand side of her head- said she must have been hit hard there :( took 9 months of handling for me to re-back her, and much longer to fully gain her trust. for a while she trusted me but no one else to put on a head collar, now the list has expanded and she is mostly 'normal', but when a friend came to meet the horses (having had her for 3 years now!) my gelding was happy to have a stroke- she stood away and did not let my friend near, until bribed with carrots!
in the summer we would sometimes pop up late to put on light weight rugs in the field. one night she decided she would not let my friend near her, who had been doing rugs all week. then a few weeks later she would not let me put a rug on. i actually chased her around for a bit. then got a head collar and she finally decided with that on she would have the rug on. never had a problem with rugs before or again!!!
mares can be very special, but also pick up on your emotions and hormones too much. if i am in a bad mood i do not even think about riding her as she will tense up.

my friend has a behaviourist visiting her horse in a few weeks and said she will 'look' at the others, so i am intrigued to see what they say
 
I suppose it's a bit like having a friend, probably your only friend and what ever it is they're doing for some reason you're not quite comfortable with it but like all of us some days you cope better than others, then out of the blue your only friend throws something at you and walks away taking the snack that you have been used to having ever day, oh and the coat you usually wear is hidden too, I wonder where your trust levels would be?

As someone has already pointed out whatever it is you're doing isn't working, I don't know about other methods but Intelligent Horsemanship as well as general horsemanship are extremely good with this kind of problem, it might be worth seeing who the recommend associate is in your area.
 
"..she is totally bottom of the pecking order with every single horse straight away…"

I keep feeling that is significant, but I can't explain why.

With a nervous anti-social animal I have usually achieved success by simply approaching several times a day, giving a reward (in this case, I'd give half a carrot, no more) each time, then immediately walking away.

This seems to work, I think, because the animal soon begins to think, "Oh, here comes my treat| rather than "Oh, here comes a treat and all that messing about that I hate". Some times, less is more.

You are actually training your horse to look forward to your approach because of one single result -- the treat (followed by your quick exit) and not confusing the issue with enforced interaction.

That is what I have been doing with the yearling who ran into a post. All I can say is that it seems to be working. He is actually coming to meet me when he sees me now and I can put a finger through his head collar and lead him a few paces. But if I push it and ask for too much, he will spook.
 
My ex-racer was very wary of me when I got him. He would back out of my space whenever I approached, was tense to groom, never looked at me straight on when I was close to him, and over-reacted when I asked him to move over etc. He would ignore me in the field, some days walking away the minute I approached and pretending not to see me. He was head shy (another with aural plaques), and generally antisocial.

After my previous very over affectionate horse it was a real difficult situation for me - especially as my old boy had died only weeks before getting the new lad. I found it really hard to connect with him.

17 months later and he's the most soppy, cuddly, affectionate beast ever. He gives kisses on the noses, lets me kiss and generally handle his ears, nickers to me whenever I walk past/he's tacked up and waiting for me/I nicker to him first, watches me all the time on the yard and actively approaches me in the field. He is in about anything I'm doing in the stable/helps be do up surcingles/is always in about my personal space whenever I'm talking to someone and not giving him enough attention! The other liveries think he's adorable, and he loves all the attention he gets for being so cute.

For him, it was confidence - now he is confident about me and what I do to him, he is super sweet and a real suck up.

Then equally I had a horse previously who EVERY DAY the whole time I owned him would snort and spook at em when I went to catch him. He was sweet and lovely to handle once I had him, but he never got over being a sod to catch.

Your mare may not naturally be as attention seeking as my boy has turned out to be, and she may need more time to come out of her shell. But it doesn't mean she won't.
 
My last horse hated everyone, and just about tolerated me. On a really good day, he would stand for a very short amount of a fuss without trying to plot ways to murder you in the next few mins. The one time I can really only ever remember him actually being nice was the day I found out my mother was going to die! I went to the yard to sort things out so I could be away for a few days (for the obvious), popped down to the field to say hello to him and he came over, rested his head on my shoulder for about 10 mins and nuzzled me so clearly picked up on it. That's the only time I can remember him being nice. I had him for about 5 years. It was just him. He had come from a professional polo and hunting yard where there were always 50 plus horses, he wasn't used to one on one attention and never really liked it much. That was him and his personality, he was an utterly miserable g1t. Liked to be left alone. He wasn't that keen on company in the field either.

If the horse does its job for you without issue then you might just have to accept the mare isn't fussy and dislikes cuddles. Horses don't express "love" in the way humans do. My current horse is a complete fusspot, big puppy dog really, loves fuss and cuddles. But I'm under no illusions about him loving me - he "loves" everyone, he is a complete attention wh0re who will switch his affections to whoever handles him the most. In your case OP, if the mare being difficult about catching is preventing you from actually doing anything with her then I don't think you could go far wrong with a few sessions with a Kelly Marks RA. I had a session with one with my last horse (for loading issues) and it was really useful. None of it was the crystal wielding hippiness I expected - the RA was down to earth, looked at how I handled and interacted with the horse, and changed that to change the horse's behaviour.
 
It would be so lovely if they could talk, wouldn't it?!?! DryRot - I agree, I find it significant that she generally is ignored by other horses. She is never ever aggressive with humans or animals, and she is the boldest most genuine horse to ride, lead. Goes anywhere, does anything without question. She is sensitive about having her ears clipped or trimmed but fine to gently groom them or bridle. I suspect she may have aural plaques but have never actually been to take a good look (this is the only thing that questions whether she has been badly handled/ear twitched in the past). It is so depressing when she acts so wary and fed up all the time. Ohh and yes everytime I go into the field I give her a scratch or treat which she likes but any sight of head collar and the shutters come down again. Again someone mentioned competition horses not having much 'love' and I think she has been subject to this too. Thanks for all your advice and support. I'll look into NH for some ground work exercises to see if I can get her thinking a bit
 
Is there a problem with her eye sight! I always put rope round the horses neck , then nose in nose band and head piece on . I never use just the throat piece being unclipped to put the head collar off and on. Agree hormones can upset them. You sound like a lovely caring owner.
 
I'm sure most people would disagree with me but have you thought of getting a communicator?
 
tallyho! said:
I'm sure most people would disagree with me but have you thought of getting a communicator?
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Tally ho - I have already due to this very problem - wanted to see if she had had a bad experience. The reading was quite vague (which I expected as a bit of a cynic and take with a very large pinch of salt), said she had a lovely upbringing as a foal and living in a herd environment. The reader said that she was the most human horse she had ever read and that she was very happy with me and that she felt I understood her well and that she liked being busy and was bold. Apparently even when the Communicator asked if there was anything at all she was worried about she said she used to have some pain in one of her hind feet but it had gone now (this was true and before I got her). Doesn't sound like my mare at all does it???

I also had someone do some Bowen with her - she was completely unfazed and fell asleep. The Bowen said she showed a perfect reaction to it but to me she just got that shut down bored look in her eye and was just waiting until these pesky humans let her be in peace again!

I guess I just need to accept that she is who she is and stop looking for answers and just make sure all her experiences with me are positive. She is a lovely gentle mare and as already said in terms of riding and general manners she is perfect for me. So in essence I have come a full circle - just put up with it all and work through the build up of frustration when she makes me feel like the worst owner in the world who beats her regularly... Perhaps it's me that needs some help if I need blooming love and reassurance from a horse!!! :-)

Someone said I need to change things/ the way I am with her but her life is lovely, I can't imagine how to change it for the better if I am honest
 
Dry Rot is spot on. I would not personally go the NH route but talk to a behaviourst. Depending on where you are based I'm sure there are plenty of people on here who could recommend one. I have had wonderful success with one of mine who has gone from biting me when I touched him to being the first to greet me when I go to the field. Good Luck.
 
My horse is/was firmly bottom of the pecking order too - they must worry about being picked on by anyone, horse or human. Or perhaps being vulnerable to the other horses when on a lead rope?
 
My daughters elderly (but sprightly) cob sounds a bit like this. In many ways she's probably one of the best horse I've ever met - under saddle she'll do anything for you and she's dead clever, but love and affection are not her thing at all. She'll accept a bit of a cuddle under sufferance and regularly tries to kick people when being caught in from the field if she's not ready to come in, She's completely aloof from other horses (treats them with utter contempt) - but that is the way she is. I guess some horses are just like that. I wouldn't change her for the world tho..... OP whats your girl like to ride?
 
Jericho said:
Tally ho - I have already due to this very problem - wanted to see if she had had a bad experience. The reading was quite vague (which I expected as a bit of a cynic and take with a very large pinch of salt), said she had a lovely upbringing as a foal and living in a herd environment. The reader said that she was the most human horse she had ever read and that she was very happy with me and that she felt I understood her well and that she liked being busy and was bold. Apparently even when the Communicator asked if there was anything at all she was worried about she said she used to have some pain in one of her hind feet but it had gone now (this was true and before I got her). Doesn't sound like my mare at all does it???

I also had someone do some Bowen with her - she was completely unfazed and fell asleep. The Bowen said she showed a perfect reaction to it but to me she just got that shut down bored look in her eye and was just waiting until these pesky humans let her be in peace again!

I guess I just need to accept that she is who she is and stop looking for answers and just make sure all her experiences with me are positive. She is a lovely gentle mare and as already said in terms of riding and general manners she is perfect for me. So in essence I have come a full circle - just put up with it all and work through the build up of frustration when she makes me feel like the worst owner in the world who beats her regularly... Perhaps it's me that needs some help if I need blooming love and reassurance from a horse!!! :-)

Someone said I need to change things/ the way I am with her but her life is lovely, I can't imagine how to change it for the better if I am honest
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No doubt I'd think it lovely if someone threw a headcollar at me
 
Jericho said:
Someone said I need to change things/ the way I am with her but her life is lovely, I can't imagine how to change it for the better if I am honest
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It was me who said that but I didn't mean to make major changes, just small things like swapping a headcollar for a halter or the other way round depending on what you use now, altering your routine slightly. I would always put the bottom horse out first, never introduce it into a field with the herd already there, in case it made her feel vulnerable - I don't know whether you do this or could change your routine to do so. I would also always bring her in last, so that she doesn't feel threatened in the gateway.
Without being there with you it is difficult to offer advice about such small changes because we all tend to assume that every-one does things the way we do.
 
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