My horse hates the saddle being put on!

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horses99

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She has had Physio and recently had a nice saddle professional fitted and has now developed a learnt behaviour to having the saddle on. I believe this may be because her old one was uncomfortable/ not fitted correctly but now she has a nice one fitted so she is in no pain to do with the saddle. She is happy to be groomed etc and fine to put the bridle on but as soon as I bring the saddle out she straight away changes in behaviour. Even just putting the saddlecloth on can bring angry faces. I have had to start tiring her up to put the saddle on as she does try to bite I do not believe she would make contact but when the saddle fitter held her when I went to put the saddle on and she massively lunges at him teeth out. So to protect myself I tie her up but I don’t think this is helping long term. I try to use my voice to tell her no when she pulls faces and brings her head round to snarl at me but she does show teeth and it takes 15minutes just to get the saddle on her she’s ok to girth and fine to groom and rug etc it’s only putting the saddle on and she pulls small faces when the girth is being done up or I reach for it. Is there any option other than taking things slow and hope she improves? I’ve considered food: treats but don’t want to get into a situation where it’s like a distraction and doesn’t work and then she’s worse without them? I usually have to tack her up alone I have had people hold her head when I place the saddle then she is manageable but it’s hard work by myself. She is a sensitive mare but I can handle her in all other scenarios she’s a nice girl and she is fine after I ride her to take the saddle off. As an experiment today I put it back on after the ride and she gave no reaction as it was after the ride and she was chilled out so it’s a learnt behaviour but doesn’t help with tacking her up to start! any advice please tia
 
How can you be sure she is in no pain when her behaviour is saying otherwise? i wouldn't be so sure it is just a learned behaviour on the say so of one (hopefully well qualified and competent) saddle fitter alone.
 
Has she always does this or has she got worse?

I'd suggest keeping her tied up. She could also be cold backed - have you tried a furry numnah / sheepskin to see if this helps?
 
ozpoz said:
How can you be sure she is in no pain when her behaviour is saying otherwise? i wouldn't be so sure it is just a learned behaviour on the say so of one (hopefully well qualified and competent) saddle fitter alone.
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I agree. Mine didn't like his saddlecloth and would walk around when I put his saddle on but after switching to a bigger saddlecloth the behaviour changed next time I went to saddle him. If yours is still displaying the same behaviour then she's telling you she isn't happy yet.
 
My boy is similar- after having back pain from a fall in the field, he reacted very badly when I started bringing him back into work again (despite having the all clear from professionals). I spent about a week not exercising him, but just putting the saddle on, praising him with a nice scratch, and taking it off again, multiple times a day, and eventually he got better. I knew it was just learnt behaviour with him because he didn't do it if i tacked him up away from home, only in the usual place of his stable!
 
She’s had a Physio out and a separate qualified saddle fitter, I use a thick go saddle on pad/ LeMieux cc pad on her so they’re quite thick?when I got her she was ok with the saddle but she would walk off and never ‘loved’ having it on and has got progressively worse but she may just take time now I suppose
 
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Second opinion on both back and saddle for me. My boy told me he didnt like a saddle. Both physio and saddler said it was fine. Horse disagreed. Different saddle..happy horse.
 
I would just take a couple of weeks or so (annoying as it's xmas time off, I know) and put saddle on, praise/treat, then remove and carry on. Only remove once relaxed and behaving so as not to teach that teeth = saddle off.
 
Think yes may be a treat and patient kind of time for a few weeks! The saddle was very good he understood how she reacted to a saddle and was very clear if she didn’t like it and this one was ok but I think it’s more having the saddle out on than the saddle as she had 10 tried out and at the start he was like oh she will get bored of doing that later and she never did no matter what saddle it was. I did manage to get her yesterday after having it on off about 10 times to stop showing a face to the saddle cloth just haven’t experienced this before with a horse so just wanted to see what others opinion/ experiences were so il just keep persisting and buy some more polos for now! ( her favourite haha) tia x
 
My boy used to get very anxious when I tried to put the saddle on. Wouldn’t stand still and was girthy. Again, think he’d had saddles plonked down before and as he’s extremely sensitive skin, felt the girth being yanked up. Luckily he’s very food oriented so we worked on reward. Also, he likes the saddle put on the neck /wither then saddle slid down. Only likes a high withered numnah and only
Likes a sheepskin cloth over his girth. Saddle goes on. Gets carrots. Saddle readjusted. Carrots. Girth up lowest whole. Gets carrot. Each hole has to be done slowly. With leg stretches and a carrot. He’s a funny dude. As soon as the saddle goes on he stretches round for his treat. It’s wirked for us
 
horses99 said:
Think yes may be a treat and patient kind of time for a few weeks! The saddle was very good he understood how she reacted to a saddle and was very clear if she didn’t like it and this one was ok but I think it’s more having the saddle out on than the saddle as she had 10 tried out and at the start he was like oh she will get bored of doing that later and she never did no matter what saddle it was. I did manage to get her yesterday after having it on off about 10 times to stop showing a face to the saddle cloth just haven’t experienced this before with a horse so just wanted to see what others opinion/ experiences were so il just keep persisting and buy some more polos for now! ( her favourite haha) tia x
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Or it could be that none of the saddles felt comfortable to her.

Saddlers/fitters can only see what the owner can see, they cannot feel what the horse feels. She is probably telling you that she still isn't comfortable. It could be that the thick saddle pad that is causing the problem. Did the fitter actually suggest a thick pad under the saddle? If so the saddle doesn't fit properly. And if not, you don't need it.
I would certainly ask for a 2nd opinion for both physio and fitter.
 
Another thought. My horse was just like this and it turned out he had ulcers. It was the only sign he gave. It escalated to me having to cross tie himto get the saddle on and then he reacted to the breastplate being done up. Although he did get bad at being groomed to and you say yours is ok. It might be worth considering. Is he ok being rugged up ?
 
horses99 said:
Think yes may be a treat and patient kind of time for a few weeks! The saddle was very good he understood how she reacted to a saddle and was very clear if she didn’t like it and this one was ok but I think it’s more having the saddle out on than the saddle as she had 10 tried out and at the start he was like oh she will get bored of doing that later and she never did no matter what saddle it was. I did manage to get her yesterday after having it on off about 10 times to stop showing a face to the saddle cloth just haven’t experienced this before with a horse so just wanted to see what others opinion/ experiences were so il just keep persisting and buy some more polos for now! ( her favourite haha) tia x
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Or it could be that none of the saddles felt comfortable to her.

Saddlers/fitters can only see what the owner can see, they cannot feel what the horse feels. She is probably telling you that she still isn't comfortable.

It could be that the thick saddle pad that is causing the problem. Did the fitter actually suggest a thick pad under the saddle? If so the saddle doesn't fit properly. And if not, you don't need it.

I would certainly ask for a 2nd opinion for both physio and fitter.
 
Didn’t suggest to use a thick one I just use the normal LeMieux cc pads as they’re nice and well made the seem pretty gp? And yes she is very particular
 
I’ve considered she may have ulcers what treatment did you use with yours? I’ve heard it’s hard to test other than scoping and I haven’t got insurance, she is fine to rug no issue I do that even when she’s feeding, grooming is fine she may pull a small face at the start but then she doesn’t care
 
I have gone through possibly 6 or 7 saddles in the 9 years I have owned mine. I absolutely would not believe what any saddle fitter tells me if my horse is retiscent to have a saddle put on. They have to wear it and they have to carry you and they know what is comfortable for THEM, and what isn't. Some horses are more vocal and opinionated than others who are more stoic. Personally I prefer a horse to say as best as they can and then I can try to find the solution, rather than some horses who put up with discomfort until either they are in so much pain they end up broncing the rider off or they are so honest they end up with massive muscle wastage. Horses are never as cunning as people make them out to be - they tend to opt for a quiet life really, and I never ever understand why people continue to battle with horses standing still for them to either get on, be bridled or be saddled. I also never understand why some saddle fitters fit a horse and then suggest a whacking great sheepskin pad. Saddles are a minefield - I am grateful that I have found a holistic saddle that suits mine.
 
My local vet practice was doing a free scoping day so I took advantage of that. Ultimately it cost about £1500 for treatment though but my insurance paid out.
You could look at this video and see if yours have any other signs.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr05hMmLCY4

I've also found feeding charcoal for a few days can help but of course there's loads of different things on the market.
 
horses99 said:
She’s had a Physio out and a separate qualified saddle fitter, I use a thick go saddle on pad/ LeMieux cc pad on her so they’re quite thick?when I got her she was ok with the saddle but she would walk off and never ‘loved’ having it on and has got progressively worse but she may just take time now I suppose
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Was the new saddle fitted with the thick nummah??
 
As well as the saddle it could be the girth, I have had sore ribs before and no one would have girthed me either.

Could be ulcers, if it is a mare it could also be ovaries.

I have had some success with an Asur saddle with horses who do not like the saddle. Some can be so bruised with the tree points that it can take many weeks for the bruising to go down. The totally flat old Ansur Dressage with appropriate shims etc can help. A couple of horses droped the whole faces thing when saddled a few times and the saddle did not dig. It was quite emotional when some stretched and relaxed when walked on a long rein and they worked out that there was no pain. All horses who had been checked...

Jay could not take a forward facing tree point, however well the saddle apparently fitted. I ended up with having to make him a jump saddle on a dressage tree. Horses don't lie, so if she is uncomfortable it is a matter of finding out why.

They are clumsy, buta Port Lewis pad is eye opening. Low tech way of telling if the sddle is pinching. Use it instead of a numnah for a ride.
 
My young mare was rearing numerous times a session and very reluctant to go forward. She also hated having the saddle put on. I had the vet, chiro and saddler to her and everything including saddle fit was fine. However, when I tried a different saddle on her, straight cut rather than forward, she was a different horse. Forward going and no longer running away from the saddle or rearing. The saddler said the one she likes doesn't fit her 100% and the original saddle did, but my girl hated it. She's difficult to fit and I am still waiting for my fourth appointment with my second saddler. But I know immediately I walk forwards on her if she doesn't like a saddle. I can just feel it. She doesn't have to misbehave to tell me, so I tell the saddler and we have to try another. Unfortunately the ones she likes don't fit me and vice versa so we still ride in the not quite 100% perfect fit saddle because she's 100% happy in it. At the end of the day the horse is the best judge.
 
Our mare dislikes the saddle we bought for her, in that she tries to nip us when saddling up sometimes - we just thought that was her as she'd done it since we got her (came without a saddle but we had one that fitted OK, a Wintec that belonged to another horse). We got her a GP saddle of her own, and had it fitted via a very reputable local saddler. Only discovered this after buying a nice dressage saddle a year or two later - generally didn't try to bite us. Had had the saddler out (2 different ladies same firm) every 6 months for about 3 years. She was underweight and undermuscled when we got her but it has been adjusted regularly to suit her shape - has changed guullets, and we've tried with and without sheepskin (can be sensitive). Currently we also use LeMieux as she seems to like these. Tried a different saddler for a jump saddle as we'd seen a nice one of a different make our saddler didn't sell on a similar shaped horse and tried it on her (not ridden) and it seemed to suit so invited saddler out with a different range of saddles. Mare tolerated about 6 different saddles being tried on her back - didn't nip, 3 were selected as possibles to ride. She 100% made it obvious which saddle she prefered of these 3 - didn't nip when going on, and rode beautifully in it. This saddler agreed the original GP saddle fits perfectly fine, so we decided she just did not like the style of it - so we've gone for a close contact style jump saddle this time, it's lighter weight and allows much more freedom of movement (as does the Albion dressage she has).

I say listen to your horse and try a different saddler/different saddles and/or get a vet out to see whether there is anything wrong.
 
A horse should not react like this when they are being saddled. She is shouting loud and clear that something is uncomfortable. Maybe the new saddle has a nail sticking in her back (has been known) or looks OK on, but not when ridden.

Can you ride bareback or with just a soft pad? I know someone who gave up with saddles and rides with a pad with girth and stirrups, but she is only hacking not doing competitions. But if you could borrow one to see what happens, then you will know if it is the saddle or the horse.
 
Hi horses99
It does appear as per your assumption that it is a learnt associative behavior, that is not to say there may be more to it, but lets assume it is that.

So my gut( without seeing your horse) would be to break this into a 2 day rehab process to disassociate from prior bad experiences of being saddled up. And always stop for the day when you are in a positive place(this is very important... no... really important..)

So day one is getting your horse to be indifferent with just the numnah and also to break the association with the saddle, as it sounds like your horse is very good at anticipating all the elements to a outcome. There are 2 differing strategies for this using either positive or negative methods. Positive would be to provide a tidbit as you put on the numnah as long as the teeth are not coming at you like something out of the film Alien, then go about your business with the horse, brushing, hoof picking, faffing around in the yard, anything other than going out for a ride. Rinse and repeat at least 5 times, ideally twice that.The most import thing is once you get a couple of non reactions in a row call it quits. The negative method would be go into a arena/field with the horse on a halter and rope and everytime a bad reaction happens get the horse to move its feet and make it realize that putting on the numnah is a place of rest, so no pulling on the halter, just mater of fact about it all. I would also make sure you are wearing what you normally have on to tack up, boots stirrups hat etc etc, as it seems your horse is quite adept at anticipation from your description. Also do this session without bringing out the saddle with the numnah, and only bring the saddle in once you are finished for the day but don't even think of putting it on your horse, as you are trying to break the cycle of association.
Day 2 would be the same but by introducing the saddle to the equation. And depending on how you feel, I would be tempted to not even ride that day. The positive or negative reinforcement methods really depend on the horse and what suites you.
When you get a pinch point like this patience is your friend.
I may not have described my method perfectly,for which I am sorry, but its boxing day. If this does not improve things then move things up to the vet option.
 
I would not assume it is a learnt behaviour at all, and from what has been shared in the OPs various posts would want at very least a second opinion on saddle fit.
 
When I say fitted with both what I meant was when it was initially tested and fitted to her she wore the saddle by itself then I tacked her up in full with saddle pad girth etc etc and rode her testing the saddle so she was looked at by the fitted with the saddle only and also with the pad. She gave various reactions so saddles tried and only 3 did she like most and appeared to show when touched and check of fit little or no reaction but with others she hated. The reason I believe it may be a learnt behaviour is today after riding I took the saddle off as normal then 60 seconds later I put it back on her (never done this why would I) I did this 2 more times and she was fine with it and she didnt care so if it’s pain why didn’t she do it then? She is very switched on and smart. I realise this may not be the whole picture, Thank you for all your advice I will try to be patient and slow and reward good behaviour and desensitise the idea of not liking being racked up by putting the pad on randomly etc and hopefully will see improvement with time as suggested, and if not consider vet and saddle refit or another saddle entirely, thanks again everyone x
 
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