My horse is nappy on the long reins, please help!

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AmyJai

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First some background info:
I have a 14.1/14.2hh coming up to 3 year old rescue cob. It it my first time bringing a horse on myself (although I have helped other people before). I am currently preparing him for light backing at the end of the summer (he will then be brought into work fully the following year).

I have done lots of in hand/halter work and he is brilliant: completely respects my personal space, will yield in any direction, backs up and will walk/trot/stand on command. I am now beginning to long line him; at the shelter that I got him from he had already be long-reined (probs around 10 times) as they thought he was older than it has now been confirmed that he is. I am long reining him in the dually halter before I introduce the bit.

The first few times that i long reined him i walked along behind him and we stayed in walk, working on changing direction, standing, backing up, walking in circles etc. Then after about five sessions on only walking etc I began trotting and he ran off with me and ignored my commands asking him to come back. because of this i decided to long-rein him on the circle, as I thought it would be more difficult for him to run off with me on a circle. He began going nicely on the circle and then all of a sudden ran off and tried to pull me off with him. He now repeats this everytime especially if we are near grass; he will nap and run off to the grass (no matter how hard i try to stop him). I then decided that long reining him outside of the menage wasn't a good idea.

However last monday (second time in the menage) he began napping in the school; turning the opposite way that i ask, rushing off, bucking/rearing, refusing to go forward, refusing to stay on the circle, and occasionally he just stops and refuses to move.

Now, as i have no control when he does this I have decided it is silly to continue long-reining him in the dually halter and am now going to begin the process of bitting him. However I am worried that he will do the same thing with a bit in, and then become hard mouthed and unresponsive to the bit. I haven't long reined him since monday due to his behaviour and am now going to wait untill he is bitted to long rein again.

Its a huge pain as long reining is one of the main stages of backing and this is slowing down the process by a huge amount.

Can someone give me any help or advice? Alot of my horsey friends are just telling me to use a whip, but I don't agree with scaring him into behaving.

Thank you
 
What is your set up when long reining? Where are the lines running, are they connected to the roller at all, what height are they running down his sides, is your outside rein coming over the wither or behind him?

I wouldn't put a bridle on to get control in the first instance as imo you don't want this habit continuing with a bit.

are there any instructors or people experienced with youngsters you could get to help for a few sessions at least?
 
I would have a long reining lesson I think, I had one and it was great learnt how to do it properly, and how to do more things. I prefer having one long rein, which I create by knotting a lead rein onto a lunge rein and attaching both ends to the bit, it goes through the roller both sides (mine is older than yours at 14 though!) I just find one rein easier to hang onto in the event he does something stupid, which was everytime when I was rehabbing him, we got rears and I think some levades :o

If he's genuinely having a confidence crisis, then I think you need to take a step back, do some more ground work then re introduce long reining with someone walking at his head. This also means they can assist in the event of any arguments.

And with the arguments, if the reins are in the roller, don't give in! If you ask him to turn one way and he resists then just keep turning him that way til he goes. If he refuses to move then wait him out til he's bored. Then when he starts to move off again, ask him to stand, then walk him on again. You need to not have any time committments with this method :)
 
Doesn't sound like he is napping, more tanking off! Put a bit string from the poll to the saddle/roller so he can't eat grass and do him in an enclosed area. I'd probably get him responding to the bit then do it with the bit not the dually as well.
 
Yielding, yielding, and more yielding.

A horse has to be properly prepared for work in long reins. He should be taught to yield to the outside rein, so that he can be dissuaded from spinning. He should also be taught to stand, and to back up willingly and without resistance, and to stop, in response to light rein pressure.

Once the horse has learned the above, it is fairly easy to control him and dissuade him from evasion. He can then be asked to go forward.
 
millitiger - I don't know of any instructors that would come out and help me as most of them are commited to the places they work at. I live next door to a livery so I will ask the owner (as we are good friends) as shes brought on many horses before, its just shes very into the traditional way of breaking horses whereas I prefer to use natural methods and just take it all as slow as needed untill he is comfortable and then moving on etc.

I have two long lines clipped onto either side of the dually and going through the lowest ring on the roller, the outside rein comes behind in rather than other the wither. I have a photo in my albums on me long reining him if that helps.
 
AengusOg- how do you suggest teaching him to yield? so far I have got him to yeild his back end away and if i step sideways whilst standing at his head he will move away. I have no trouble getting him to yield his back end, but when I ask him to yeild from the shoulder its another story! I am using Richard Maxwells methods, just wondered what you suggest?
 
Stencilface- I would love to have a lesson! But I have no idea who could give me one!? I may ask the lady who owns the yard next door but then i'm afraid she will insist on using a lunge whip.

I don't think its a confidence issue, I think hes just figured out that hes stronger than me and he can just ignore my commands. Problem is that hes so determined it becomes impossible to win, and he does it constantly so theres no break! my arms begin to ache trying to get him off the grass/move his butt/turn the right way its a constant battle!

My dad has a go the other day and he even manged to pull him to the grass! (hes a 6'4 slim and very strong man!) but as hes stronger than me, my dad had a lot more fight and managed to get him off whereas I struggle for so long my arms give in :(


I think having someone by his head would be a good idea, however I keep him on my farm and everyone's so busy that i often don't have anyone to help me!

I need to be stronger! Althought i don't want to be, I already have huge arms for a girl !!:S
 
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AmyJai said:
millitiger - I don't know of any instructors that would come out and help me as most of them are commited to the places they work at. I live next door to a livery so I will ask the owner (as we are good friends) as shes brought on many horses before, its just shes very into the traditional way of breaking horses whereas I prefer to use natural methods and just take it all as slow as needed until he is comfortable and then moving on etc.

I have two long lines clipped onto either side of the dually and going through the lowest ring on the roller, the outside rein comes behind in rather than other the wither. I have a photo in my albums on me long reining him if that helps.
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The traditional system is not at fault, but experienced people are just that, so it does not take them as long as inexperienced people.
I use a traditional method but have taken as long as it takes, which might be six months between handling and backing, the basics have to be learned, and obedience is one of the basics.
I have never long reined in a halter, I would not expect it to work, and it has allowed him to misbehave. The whole idea of long reining is to make a nice horse and that means a nice mouth.
I suggest you start bitting him,
PS I see you have him tied up in the dually, is this ok? I am not familiar with dually, but I don't tie up in a pressure release halter in case of panic.
 
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MrsD123 said:
The traditional system is not at fault, but experienced people are just that, so it does not take them as long as inexperienced people.
I use a traditional method but have taken as long as it takes, which might be six months between handling and backing, the basics have to be learned, and obedience is one of the basics.
I have never long reined in a halter, I would not expect it to work, and it has allowed him to misbehave. The whole idea of long reining is to make a nice horse and that means a nice mouth.
I suggest you start bitting him,
PS I see you have him tied up in the dually, is this ok? I am not familiar with dually, but I don't tie up in a pressure release halter in case of panic.
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Its a dually halter as its 'duel' purpose. meaning that it is used as a normal headcollar as well as a training head collar. I would never tie him up clipped onto the training rings as he could pull back and break his nose. I never leave him unattended in the dually and I hardly ever tie him up in it unless it is only for five mins whilst i put his roller on.
 
It's actually called a Dually because it's named after a horse and the horse is named that because he's a sturdy fellow and a "dually" is a particularly large kind of pickup truck.

Otherwise, your point is correct, the whole point of the design is you can use it as a normal or pressure halter. The idea of having a rope or chain over the nose is pretty standard in North America but kudos to Monty for mass marketing it. :)

When you say you're working with Richard Maxwell's system, do you mean you are following his books? Have you done all the exercises leading up to long lining so they are just about perfect? Perhaps step back a bit and see if there are any holes that may not have seemed important initially.

Re a trainer, I've said it before and I'll say it again, it is MUCH easier for all concerned, horse included, to just get someone to show you and then advise as you go. It's impossible for anyone not there looking and preferably feeling what is going on, to give you specific, safe, reliable advice. (Which is not to say people on the Internet don't have good, useful ideas ;) or that experimenting isn't useful and educational, it's just for specific problems you don't always improve the situation and may make things worse by randomly trying stuff.)
 
Looking again, I think that I would get this problem sorted, then just leave him all summer till he is bigger and stronger. In the meantime get some more work experience, maybe the livery yard needs some help.
Don't worry about someone carrying a lunge whip, if they can long rein and carry a lunge whip at the same time they are probably ok.
Don't imagine that people who use a lunge whip to train a horse are going it to thrash him, it is used to keep him working in a circle.
Richard Maxwell uses a round pen to train horses, but you don't have one.
Richard is also a top class rider and handler, there is not much he does not know, and can put it in to action immediately, unlike Monty Roberts he does not train up people in his system, he is the system.
One of his techniques is to take a scary poly bag on a stick and run it all over the horse, they get over it.
 
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TarrSteps said:
It's actually called a Dually because it's named after a horse and the horse is named that because he's a sturdy fellow and a "dually" is a particularly large kind of pickup truck.

Otherwise, your point is correct, the whole point of the design is you can use it as a normal or pressure halter. The idea of having a rope or chain over the nose is pretty standard in North America but kudos to Monty for mass marketing it. :)

When you say you're working with Richard Maxwell's system, do you mean you are following his books? Have you done all the exercises leading up to long lining so they are just about perfect? Perhaps step back a bit and see if there are any holes that may not have seemed important initially.

Re a trainer, I've said it before and I'll say it again, it is MUCH easier for all concerned, horse included, to just get someone to show you and then advise as you go. It's impossible for anyone not there looking and preferably feeling what is going on, to give you specific, safe, reliable advice. (Which is not to say people on the Internet don't have good, useful ideas ;) or that experimenting isn't useful and educational, it's just for specific problems you don't always improve the situation and may make things worse by randomly trying stuff.)
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Yes I know it was named after montys horse, but he also says it was called that as it was dual purpose but now it has more than two uses. Anyway what does that matter?! :P

I was posting on here for additonal info, have spoken to next doors trainer this evening and she said to get him bitted and then she'll help me on the long lines which is great.

I am using maxwells books as a helpful guide but not following it religiously as its impossible to do it all perfectly when you are learning and have a horse that has other ideas :P I am using alot of different methods that I have seen on top marks, during montys demostrations, suggestions from other horsey friends and trainers, other books etc aswell when they seem appropriate.

Yeah totally agreed with getting someome experienced to help you and I will do just that, just wanted to see what advice etc other horsey people could offer :)
 
Before all these people came along millions of horses were broken in to ride and to drive, some badly but most were done reasonably well.
I have broken in lots of youngsters, and never read a book on it, if I needed help I got it.
I don't do flatwork, so if I wanted that done I got someone who liked that sort of thing.
Any problems I had were with horses who had been messed about with.
 
Very true. A whip is just a tool and only as good or bad as the hand holding it. What's the difference between that and Max throwing a line at a horse? Don't confuse the 'NH' systems for nicely nicely, never-any-consequences approaches.

Re the bridle, I'm not a fan of doing a lot of long reining off a bit at least until you're quite skilled. I know it's merely a difference of opinion but I've seen some pretty significant long term repercussions if it goes wrong. I'll also admit I'm not a fan for resorting to a bridle for general control issues. To me a horse's mouth is so fragile and so important that going to it for force rather than fine tuning is suspect. You MAY have to go there, given the problem already exists, but make sure you do everything to educate the horse properly to the rein aid first.

But then again, I do only a very small amount of long reining with many horses and have my own bridle and rein set up I'm comfortable with. I've certainly backed many horses with minimal long raining and a fair number with none at all.

Re finding an instructor, where are you? Maybe someone on here can point you in the direction of someone. I'd say most of the NH people I know DO travel, as do some freelance young horse specialists.
 
MrsD123 said:
Looking again, I think that I would get this problem sorted, then just leave him all summer till he is bigger and stronger. In the meantime get some more work experience, maybe the livery yard needs some help.
Don't worry about someone carrying a lunge whip, if they can long rein and carry a lunge whip at the same time they are probably ok.
Don't imagine that people who use a lunge whip to train a horse are going it to thrash him, it is used to keep him working in a circle.
Richard Maxwell uses a round pen to train horses, but you don't have one.
Richard is also a top class rider and handler, there is not much he does not know, and can put it in to action immediately, unlike Monty Roberts he does not train up people in his system, he is the system.
One of his techniques is to take a scary poly bag on a stick and run it all over the horse, they get over it.
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I agree, richard is brilliant. I struggle with my view on whips as yes if used correctly they are a good tool but I have witnessed so many occasions where someone has lost their temper and used a whip aggressively or to 'teach the horse who is boss' sort of thing.
Its very upsetting and not nice to see.

I already help out at the livery yard when sheneeds help during holidays and worked as a groom for the past six years. I'm not an idiot and yes this is my first time backing my own horse but you've got to start somewhere. Yes I'll make mistakes but this is a big part of how you learn.

What I would love to do is have work experience with maxwell as I would love to learn from him. Also he no longer uses a round pen as he explains in his 'train your young horse' book that he does not find it nessecary any more.
 
OP, the whip in long-reining is rarely if ever actually used on the horse - it is an extremely useful guide and it can 'amplify' your turning and Go aids. It's all in the handling. Try to find a nice well-balanced driving whip rather than a lungewhip as the latter are too long and heavy to give neat quick aids. Also think carefully about the reins you are using - again you want reins that are easy to handle - lunge line types are often too bulky.

Have a chat with your neighbour - an extra bod to help is always great, and don't dismiss 'traditional methods' of longreining, it's a gentle and interesting way to work a horse.

PS If you haven't already look out a little book called The Art of Long Reining by Sylvia Stanier
 
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I had my long rein lesson from a classical instructor as ime they generally have quite a lot of experience with long reining and are quite good at it! I watched a demo with Chris Bartle a few years ago and he did most of the session on the long rein, I was in awe of what he could do from the ground, it was incredible. :)
 
When I worked in Germany we backed a lot of horses for the sales, they were lightly lunged, then we got on and rode them fwds, fwds, fwds!!

I recently backed my own 17.2 WB, again lightly lunged and got on. First couple of hacks I lead him off my older boy and then took him out on his own, he was very brave. Horses for courses but I'd get in a muddle long reining now I think having never done it!
 
Oscar said:
When I worked in Germany we backed a lot of horses for the sales, they were lightly lunged, then we got on and rode them fwds, fwds, fwds!!

I recently backed my own 17.2 WB, again lightly lunged and got on. First couple of hacks I lead him off my older boy and then took him out on his own, he was very brave. Horses for courses but I'd get in a muddle long reining now I think having never done it!
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This is what I fear with OP, long reining is a skill that takes practice, and one wants to practice with a schoolmaster.
The pony looks very honest type and I would probably think he would be fine to back quietly. Now a problem has arisen, unfortunately it has to be sorted.
 
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