My horse is 'seriously underweight'

The horse is right for just coming out of winter, the spring grass is flying through and if he is on 12 hours grazing then a 6-8k haynet should be adequate (work out 2% of his ideal bodyweight to maintain condition). OP could perhaps use a haylage net or double net to slow him down with it if necessary, and I would agree that hard feed should be weighed although if he were mine then I would probably cut the hard feed completely and give vitamins instead. A few more weeks on good spring grass and this horse will look totally different, ours are only now starting to show the effects, they are out 24/7 on it and we have 8 on around 20 acres of decent grass so no shortage.
 
cambrica said:
Possibly then you should read your response to feeding = muscle tone as that carries very sarcastic undertones along with Hollyhocks response.

Feeding up does not increase muscle. Feeding extra when combined with a training / exercise program does.
The fact remains that the horse is in no way 'seriously underweight' and now he's finished growing upwards should bulk out naturally over the next year or two.
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If you consider that a "very vindictive reply" then you're surprisingly delicate. Organisms require energy to convert into cells - the OP's comment read as if feeding (up/out/sideways) wasn't required to build muscle. My question to the OP was genuine, and yes it does seem as if the education system is failing the younger generation.

For the third time, you're judging the horse's weight based on unknown quantities of extra feeding - I agree that *currently* he is not *seriously* underweight.

Very vindictive that was not.
 
pookie said:
If you consider that a "very vindictive reply" then you're surprisingly delicate. Organisms require energy to convert into cells - the OP's comment read as if feeding (up/out/sideways) wasn't required to build muscle. My question to the OP was genuine, and yes it does seem as if the education system is failing the younger generation.

For the third time, you're judging the horse's weight based on unknown quantities of extra feeding - I agree that *currently* he is not *seriously* underweight.

Very vindictive that was not.
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Not everyone excels at certain subjects you know! I didn't excel at maths or Welsh but I still ended up with a science degree and a decent career. Doesn't mean I can do basic maths for toffee. I still don't expect people to make nasty comments about it. Which I read your comment to be - pretty nasty and harsh on OP.
 
competitiondiva said:
Haven't read all your replies here but would say.... Get hold of a copy of the DEFRA codes of practice for horses and refer anyone saying your horse is underweight to page 11, and ask them which your horse resembles, here is the link: http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/pets/cruelty/documents/cop-horse.pdf take all angles into account, i.e might be a 2 in the rib area, a 3 over the pelvis, a 2 in the neck (these are just examples) and take the average over all the scores as the overall score....
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Forgot to say, you also need to condition score according to the type of horse he is, i.e a tb is normal to have a prominent wither and ribs seen more than a cob say... Here's a helpful video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu7ksGa9XJ4
 
pookie said:
If you consider that a "very vindictive reply" then you're surprisingly delicate. Organisms require energy to convert into cells - the OP's comment read as if feeding (up/out/sideways) wasn't required to build muscle. My question to the OP was genuine, and yes it does seem as if the education system is failing the younger generation.

For the third time, you're judging the horse's weight based on unknown quantities of extra feeding - I agree that *currently* he is not *seriously* underweight.

Very vindictive that was not.
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Very vindictive was not my response.
Sarcastic tones and unconstructive critism was.
I've been described as many things but delicate is not one of them. The education system is certainly not failing my kids and having taken exams in botany, biology and horticulture myself Im well aware of what is required to sustain life. This however has very little to do with the original post written by a young lady seeking advice and in a very grown up manner responding.
 
Moomin1 said:
Not everyone excels at certain subjects you know! I didn't excel at maths or Welsh but I still ended up with a science degree and a decent career. Doesn't mean I can do basic maths for toffee. I still don't expect people to make nasty comments about it. Which I read your comment to be - pretty nasty and harsh on OP.
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Seriously? "Pretty nasty and harsh" to expect animal owners to understand muscle isn't manufactured from thin air? That food, in addition to that required for mere maintenance, is required? Crikey :confused:
 
pookie said:
Seriously? "Pretty nasty and harsh" to expect animal owners to understand muscle isn't manufactured from thin air? That food, in addition to that required for mere maintenance, is required? Crikey :confused:
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You could inform OP of that in a mature manner instead of being sarcastic.

OP has done herself pretty proud to remain mature and not bitten back, when some people on this thread have basically insinuated she is thick.
 
cambrica said:
Very vindictive was not my response.
Sarcastic tones and unconstructive critism was.
I've been described as many things but delicate is not one of them. The education system is certainly not failing my kids and having taken exams in botany, biology and horticulture myself Im well aware of what is required to sustain life. This however has very little to do with the original post written by a young lady seeking advice and in a very grown up manner responding.
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You responded to my post saying I hadn't seen anything "very vindictive" with "possibly then you should read your response".

Having lectured I beg to differ standards in education are falling.

As you say, this has got nothing to do with the OP's original query as to whether her horse is "seriously underweight".
 
Moomin1 said:
You could inform OP of that in a mature manner instead of being sarcastic.

OP has done herself pretty proud to remain mature and not bitten back, when some people on this thread have basically insinuated she is thick.
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For the second time, I wasn't being sarcastic. My question to her was genuine.

Intelligence has nothing to do with whether the education system is working or not.
 
pookie said:
For the second time, I wasn't being sarcastic. My question to her was genuine.

Intelligence has nothing to do with whether the education system is working or not.[/QUOTE

Was it necessary to include the education system in your response to OP? I would class that as sarcastic. Seems other people here would too. By saying that the education system seems to be failing, you are implying that OP has a less than adequate intelligence level.
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Moomin1 said:
pookie said:
For the second time, I wasn't being sarcastic. My question to her was genuine.

Intelligence has nothing to do with whether the education system is working or not.
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Was it necessary to include the education system in your response to OP? I would class that as sarcastic. Seems other people here would too. By saying that the education system seems to be failing, you are implying that OP has a less than adequate intelligence level.
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I didn't. I was replying to Holly Hocks' comment:

Holly Hocks said:
Pookie, I don't think the education system is like it used to be......
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As it happens, I thoroughly agree with her. That's not "very vindictive", "sarcastic", or "pretty harsh".
 
pookie said:
Really? How else d'you think muscle is produced? :confused:
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Holly Hocks said:
Pookie, I don't think the education system is like it used to be......
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pixiebee said:
ARE YOU SERIOUS!!!! Nobody has said feeding him up will bring muscle, do you not understand basic science? How is your horse possibly going to build muscle when there is NOTHING on him to turn into muscle. Thats why athletes need GOOD diets and more calories than most people in order to not only maintain good weight but build muscle!!!
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pookie said:
You're not wrong!
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Not sarcastic ??? :confused:
 
cambrica said:
Not sarcastic ??? :confused:
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Correct. My posts weren't sarcastic. I wanted to know how the OP thought muscle was produced if not through increased feeding and I *do* think the education system is failing.

If I had been sarcastic I'd have no problem admitting it.
 
pookie said:
Correct. My posts weren't sarcastic. I wanted to know how the OP thought muscle was produced if not through increased feeding and I *do* think the education system is failing.

If I had been sarcastic I'd have no problem admitting it.
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Haha!! Funny!! SERIOUSLY?!!! :rolleyes:

..Oh - and I'm not being sarcastic - just interested in whether you are serious or not..:D
 
Moomin1 said:
Haha!! Funny!! SERIOUSLY?!!! :rolleyes:

..Oh - and I'm not being sarcastic - just interested in whether you are serious or not..:D
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Not sure how many more times I have to repeat myself. Yes, seriously. Really, genuinely, absolutely seriously.

However, I'm happy to bow out. You're entitled to your opinion.
 
Sorry to derail the thread, but on another subject, OP have you noticed your horse has some muscle wasting (wither pockets) developing, which I really wouldn't expect to see on a six year old. It would indicate that your saddle is too narrow. If you have had the same one from when he was four, then he probably needs a refit. If not, then I would still urge you to look at his saddle ASAP. :)
 
Just read your post on the amount of work your six year old is doing. I would expect him to look tremendous if he's doing all that, and is being fed properly.

He doesn't. He looks weak, and, as has been said, lacking muscle (as has been said before).

I would say this is a really great opportunity to review your feeding management of your lovely horse.
 
I read this post with great interest as I am "the woman" referred to here.
As you will all be aware there are always two sides to a story and I would like to post mine.
At no point did I say the horse was "seriously underweight".
Having noticed a sign on the horses stable stating that no one was to feed the horse anything whatsoever without her permission, that evening, as the teenage rider's mother was at the yard, and I had been wanting to discuss this matter with her but had not seen her, bearing in mind that the mum is new to horses and has asked my advice in the past, I decided I would explain to her why the horse had been getting a a small amount of haylage over the door to him in the evening.
The horse in question is approx 16.2/16.3hh, and of significant bone. I had recently noticed he has clearly visible ribs, (I am very well aware of condition scoring and I event one of my horses and most certainly do not advocate "show condition" on horses as I am well aware this can lead to laminitis and associated illnesses)and the horse referred to is in ridden work most days. My own horses are weightaped every month and are very fit muscularly and aerobically.
The sole reason for this horse being given some haylage late in the evening is because he was left with no hay whatsoever after finishing his haynet by 1900 hrs every night. He is on a shavings type pellet bedding and so cannot keep his gut healthy by providing his basis needs of grazing for approx 18 hrs per 24 hr period. He was showing signs of stressing and very miserable. I am well aware that the owner is difficult to make suggestion to and so, purely in the best interests of the horse, he was given some haylage.
This has always been standard practice in any yard I have been on in the 28 years of horse ownership. This is of course, unless the horse is on a restricted diet and is not in need of extra calories.
I explained the reason for providing the haylage to the owners. I also explained that the horse had nothing whatsoever to eat from 1900 hrs until turnout the following day which could be anywhere from 0700-0900 hrs. I believe the owner has in the past owned ponies and I was informed by her that one small haynet per night was all they got and that this was the reasoning behind this particular horse receiving the same amount.
I fully explained that this horse is not a pony and is of significant bone and has a large frame, and that going without forage for such lengthy periods can lead to ulcers and other gastic problems as well as phsycological issues, all due to a horse being deprived of its basic needs. I also explained that it is not hard feed this horse requires but more fibre in order to provide the horse with enough calories and provide the min 85% fibre based diet all horses need.
The horse was being provided one haynet per night, the net was of the smallest type available and the hay was not being weighed and so the correct fibre weight to horse body weight ratio not being achieved.
I am very disappointed that the advice of a level headed and experienced horsewoman could not have been taken on board by one so young of age and the benefit of this experience be used in a positive way. We all know that every day is a learning experience with horses and I have trainers and very knowledgable people on hand to provide me with knowledge at all times. We all need that and any advice I do pass on has come from very very experienced people.
This to me sums up the awareness issues and education required by this owner. Although I have been aware of this for some time dating back to when the horse was deliberately left by the owner with no rug on at all in mid winter and given nothing to eat as he had "schooled badly". As if horses think in that way and learn in that manner!
Thank you for reading this.
 
Thank you for putting your side to this, Eventa. Some of us have struggled on here to persuade the OP that her horse DOES require extra haylage. I hope that he is now getting it.
 
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