My horse struggles to keep his cool outside. Is he scared?

[delbino7]

So long story short we bought a horse who we had told had done a lot more than he had and in truth he's a *******ing nightmare at times!

In the stable he's the sweetest calmest horse to be around, take him out of the stable and tie him up outside and he's on pins dancing around like a pogo stick on drugs. Repeatedly breaks bailing twine, rears and will barge you out of the way. It's becoming annoying and even dangerous and doesn't seem to be getting any better. Tried Haynets and feeding him outside to try take his mind off it but doesn't seem to make much difference. It's like he's scared of the outside world because if you take him into the arena to ride him he's foot perfect, a gentle soul. Take him out for a hack and he's 10000mph still in walk and on pins. Outside arena he takes a lot of working in too.
Is he scared of the outside?

He's 6 years old shire x tb. Currently fed Dengie healthy tummy, Saracen releve and flexijoint supplement and is turned out daily for 3-4 hours weather dependant.

Any advice or exercises to do with him to help him with the "outside world" would be fantastic. Hackings becoming a chore now because I physically can't keep him calm and steady and no one wants to hack with the horse that's trying to do the "running man" and "YMCA" in one dance move... it's getting me down I don't want to give up on him but 6 months and we don't seem to have made any progress in this area.

 

[silv]

What is his routine and what had he done and how was he kept before you got him? What is he like when turned out in the field? Sorry for all the questions but just trying to get a picture.

 

[delbino7]

He's not done a lot he's been away for schooling on a very quiet yard whereas at home it's a lot more active, more horses and people etc. He's turned out daily at 8am and brought in at 12:30 fed in the morning before turnout and again at tea time 6pm when the rest of the horses are fed too, he's been an arse to turn out and bring in to the point I carry a schooling whip when turning him out, I've never had to touch him with it but he behaves if I have one in my hand. We bought him 6 months ago and he was on 24 turn out as it was summer. We're at the stage I wanted to start taking him out to low level dressage SJ (just intro tests and 65cm courses so he can start to get out) but with him behaving the way he can I'm not feeling very positive towards it. I take him to my instructors yard every week for a lesson so I can take him off the yard and to a new place (where he went for schooling) but anything more than that and he looses his head. X

 

[Shay]

Starting with the obvious... Tack / back / teeth? The shire in him is very slow growing so at 6 he may not yet have got his full growth. That can mean shape changes which mean his tack doesn't fit.

Other than that - to be honest he just sounds very green. Heavy horse component or not 6 is still quite young so you've got a lot of basic growing up for him to do in his head. It might be worth getting a natural horsemanship person in to help you with tying up and turnout. He needs to behave whether you have a whip in your hand or not. I do always worry about horses who behave when you hold a whip - even if you don't touch them with it. It tends to speak volumes about how they were backed / broken.

If you can without him dropping condition perhaps reduce the hard feed and replace with forage. Increased tun out is difficult this time of year but I wonder if he might keep condition well enough on forage only which would reduce the excess calories he has to mess about.

Then - just lots of experience for him. Calm young horse handling. You'll never physically keep hold of him - they are always stronger. You have to continue his education - possibly even re-start him in some elements.

 

[delbino7]

Thanks for your reply. He's up to date with everything all my horses have their back checked every 6 weeks, teeth done every 5 months and our saddle fitter came out to check his saddle over again at the start of December so none of those routes are one I fee I need to go down. He's not a good doer, far from it he drops weight massively when he's not on dr green so dropping the had feed isn't an option either sadly as I'd prefer him to have a forage only diet.

Think it's just going to be a long drawn out process now....

 

[bluebellfreddy]

If you can turn him out longer really do, could he go out over night? My horse is a different horse when turned out for only a few hours, a lot more stressed and harder to deal with.

 

[hollyandivy123]

just looking at the ingredients for Saracen releve it has molasses and alpha a, which might be a trigger, for weight gain/maintenance i use linseed, chaff and sugar free sugar beet. the molasses might be putting him over the edge with the turn out restriction? just a thought.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

I suspect going from 24/7 turnout to restricted has a lot to answer for. Is it at all possible to give him more turnout or move to a yard the offers better winter turnout? Another thought, is he out with company when he is in the field? My old horse was seriously sharp when on individual turnout but as soon as he was out with a herd he was like a different horse.

 

[scats]

Get him off anything with Alfalfa- Healthy Tummy is Alfalfa based and I believe the Saracen Re-leve has alfalfa in.

My 16hh is an idiot on Alfalfa, even the smallest handful of balancer with an Alfalfa ingredient sets him off. It makes him spooky to the point of being dangerous.
I've done quite a bit of research and it seems that Alfalfa can cause reactions like this, particularly in horses with TB in them (mine is 7/8 Tb)

On his new diet he is like a different animal. I am just annoyed that it took me so long to work it out!

Worth a try?

 

[out-riding]

Just a though - my horse turned really daft on Healthy Tummy it's a medium energy mix which I didn't realise and apparently has as much energy/protein as some competition mixes, (this is only what I've been told by someone who said they'd compared it to their competition mix) But others have had the same problem too.

 

[ester]

Ditto the alfalfa. I wonder if he finds a busy yard difficult, they don't suit all, though friend had the opposite problem with her warm blood she was much better on a busier yard!

 

[delbino7]

Get him off anything with Alfalfa- Healthy Tummy is Alfalfa based and I believe the Saracen Re-leve has alfalfa in.

My 16hh is an idiot on Alfalfa, even the smallest handful of balancer with an Alfalfa ingredient sets him off. It makes him spooky to the point of being dangerous.
I've done quite a bit of research and it seems that Alfalfa can cause reactions like this, particularly in horses with TB in them (mine is 7/8 Tb)

On his new diet he is like a different animal. I am just annoyed that it took me so long to work it out!

Worth a try?

Could I have some more info on your current diet for your horse? Just researching now. Thankyou!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Another here who can't feed alfalfa. Appaloosa goes mental, can't stand still! I always start with diet check if there is a problem, having had horses who can't tolerate, sugar, cereals, alfalfa, seaweed, glucosamine, Brewer's Yeast - fortunately not all the same horse!

 

[Vodkagirly]

I would change the feed, not keen on alfa. Then I would start with ground work, if the horse doesn't respect you on the ground why would it trust you in a strange situation. Find a decent instructor to support you and help you find the balance. Make sure you are calm and consistent when you handle him.

 

[ycbm]

With his heavy horse genes, he has a huge chance of having EPSM, also known as PSSM in the US. I've got two with it and seen a couple of others. They can be very, nervy about strange things (rain on a roof is a wierd one ). Look it up and see if anything rings a bell. For mine, the answer is vitamin e and alcar, but they all need a low sugar diet.

 

[scats]

Could I have some more info on your current diet for your horse? Just researching now. Thankyou!

Hi, I've replied to your other thread as well. It's actually quite difficult to find feeds without Alfalfa in it, but there are some on the market without it. I feed-

Mollichaff Calmer
Baileys no 17 Lo cal balancer (one of the only balancers I could find without Alfalfa in it)
Speedi beet

Check the ingredients of everything- even non-heating cubes often have alfalfa in, plus a lot of balancers.

 

[SEL]

I also have one who finds the outside world a bit hard to handle - my appaloosa x draft who has EPSM / PSSM. Next Feb will be 2 years since I first met her (she wasn't mine then) and her handling on the ground was very similar to how you describe. She is a completely different horse these days apart from hacking where she is very reactive and hard work. I find repetition and consistency is the key to dealing with her and keeping her relaxed.

Diet wise we are on very low sugar and starch for the EPSM. Plain chaff, non molassed beet and micronised linseed or oil if she drops weight. 24:7 turnout if weather and fields permit. My balancer is the winter balancer from Forage plus and she gets extra vitamin E & magnesium too. It might be worth trying the EPSM / PSSM diet because its not going to harm your horse even if there isn't a problem muscle wise.

 

[Sukistokes2]

Ditto getting him off alfalfa, asap, I would not feed any native horse alfalfa, they just can't take it unless in heavy work. I have a heavy horse, I was warned by my instructor, whose family breeds shires, that as youngsters they can be a bit of a handful. They just grow out of it and calm down in the end. My shire x is a brilliant horse, however I would say he is still forward going. Much more so then my Clyde. Can you not get more turn out? 3-4 hours a day is nothing, also a 6 he will now be growing and that can cause aches and pains. Food wise, I would feed mainly hay and more hay.

 

[Notimetoride]

I'm surprised reading some of these replies about alfalfa.
I recently started a thread on here about alfalfa as I needed to start feeding it to help my horses ulcers. Vet recommended I do so and he said it's rare for people to have problems with it. I was concerned she would become unmanageable, but most people who responded said they have no problems with alfalfa. So far I've had no problems with her on it (been a month now)

 

[ester]

Lots of people feed it fine, but if a horse is not fine and is already being fed it I do think it is an easy thing to change just to check. It obviously has other benefits for ulcers that mean it is worth a try too for any ulcer horse

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I'm surprised reading some of these replies about alfalfa.
I recently started a thread on here about alfalfa as I needed to start feeding it to help my horses ulcers. Vet recommended I do so and he said it's rare for people to have problems with it. I was concerned she would become unmanageable, but most people who responded said they have no problems with alfalfa. So far I've had no problems with her on it (been a month now)

Ime vets are not always the best people to advise about nutrition! Funnily enough the first horse that I had with food sensitivities was fine on alfalfa, which was not widely available at that time, I had to source some which was imported from Canada. But since then alfalfa has been used in a wide range of feeds & supplements and many horses have developed an intolerance. Any fibre will help horses with ulcers.

 

[Lulup]

I'm really surprised about the Alfalfa comments too - I try to stick to a fibre based diet where possible so all of mine have either Alfa A Oil/ Alfa A Light as a base + balancer and beet. I try to feed an ulcer friendly diet by way of prevention. I have not had a problem with anything heating up on it in the many years I've fed it. Saracen Relieve however, although a great quality feed, is in my experience rather more 'character enhancing'!!

 

[Scarlett]

I'm surprised reading some of these replies about alfalfa.
I recently started a thread on here about alfalfa as I needed to start feeding it to help my horses ulcers. Vet recommended I do so and he said it's rare for people to have problems with it. I was concerned she would become unmanageable, but most people who responded said they have no problems with alfalfa. So far I've had no problems with her on it (been a month now)

I've got 4 horses - 2 can tolerate alfalfa and 2 can't. I believe it's fairly common to have horses who struggle with it although other factors, like grazing and other feeds given, do seem to affect a horses tolerance. One of mine has a terrible intolerance and not only does he get spooky but his legs swell and he box walks and wood chews on it. The same horse has hind gut issues and cant have sugar beet either.

OP - I would certainly start with changing his diet. Look at Keyflow Pink mash as a base and feed with Keyplus which is a high calorie rice bran supplement. The mash is aimed at gut health and the Keyplus is pure good calories. I've seen a few horses now who are not only holding weight better but are far more settled in their work having swapped to Pink Mash. I also feed the Keyflow Balancer and find this gives mine everything they need to do their jobs!

 

[jumping.jack_flash]

Interesting reading this . . Do you think he feels safer in the stable, because he spends most of his time there, within his 'stable' herd? . . . Its not uncommon for horses that are stabled more than being out in a herd . . . ��

 

[Micropony]

Just on the alfalfa point, definitely worth trying a switch. I rate it as part of a forage based diet for my WB who gets on really well with it, but friends with sweet as pie natives find it turns them into stressy little thugs and they seem to get better with a grass based diet. Interestingly, another friend has an older TBxID who she tried on alfalfa when he was younger, I think it might have been a top spec one or possibly Dengie. He came up in lumps and didn't seem to get on with it at all. A few years later she is feeding simple systems feeds that have a heavy alfalfa component and he's doing brilliantly well on it, so she now thinks it wasn't the alfalfa itself he had a problem with but something they must have used to coat it with or process it in some way.

Other than feed or turnout, it sounds like a training issue in that he hasn't been taught to tie up properly outside or to cope with the sort of things he might experience on a hack. Sounds like you need a sympathetic trainer who specialises in young horses and who is good at teaching them how to learn rather than compelling obedience. As another poster said, it speaks volumes that he's good to lead when you carry a whip... That sort of training will get you so far, but it sounds like your chap needs a different approach.

My last horse could be a bit of a handful and it took a good couple of years before I would say he was good to hack, but I was very lucky to have enormously patient and understanding hacking buddies with bombproof horses to nanny him!

Best of luck x

 

[Goldenstar]

Ime vets are not always the best people to advise about nutrition! Funnily enough the first horse that I had with food sensitivities was fine on alfalfa, which was not widely available at that time, I had to source some which was imported from Canada. But since then alfalfa has been used in a wide range of feeds & supplements and many horses have developed an intolerance. Any fibre will help horses with ulcers.

Alfalfa is full of calcium that's why it's recommended for horses with ulcers all fibre is not the same .Alfalfa is the best best natural buffer for acid .
Alfalfa is an excellent feed for horses in work it's less excellent feed for horses not doing enough .

 

[AdorableAlice]

Alfalfa is full of calcium that's why it's recommended for horses with ulcers all fibre is not the same .Alfalfa is the best best natural buffer for acid .
Alfalfa is an excellent feed for horses in work it's less excellent feed for horses not doing enough .

Which would be the best part of 95% of leisure horses in the UK, especially at this time of year.

 

[lilly1]

More turnout. Lots more. Mine goes from sane to acting like there is a zombie apocalypse outside her stable on limited turnout.

 

[Eventmum]

Our newest boy was quite a lot sharper when we brought him home than we expected him to be, both in stable, on ground and and being ridden. Calmer chaff and a small dose daily of magnitude calmer worked wonders and gave him time to settle without being stressed. We still feed the chaff as he is still a young horse and learning and it helps him concentrate rather than stress about new things. Also feed hay only, no haylage as that sent him a little loopy too.