My horse threatens to kick...

[Mongoose11]

Prompted by another thread...

My horse wasn't brought up properly and is fairly anti social.

Has been out in a herd, no injuries to anyone, will not go looking for contact/trouble and actively avoids it. Bottom of the pecking order 100%. When in a herd, she is difficult to get in as becomes anxious by the gate if others are there and will circle back/rush. She has been out with a single pony and 'seemed' to 'like it' and would graze near it.

Anyway, she is now turned out alone because that is the yard set up and is fine with that.

Will groom over a fence line (tbf I've seen this happen twice in five years) but will never make contact without a fence between.

If a horse gets too close when she is tied up, being mounted, led too close, she will raise a leg, kick out, act up. BUT she has never, ever kicked another horse. Always the warning and despite having been able to, she has never made contact with the horse.

These situations do not arise when ridden. She has been on sponsored rides, large group hacks, busy collecting rings, plods very close to another horse. Nothing.

Would you 'manage' her or, at 15 years old now, start 'pasting' her?

 

[blitznbobs]

What you are describing is fear not aggression. I'd manage her by not tying her up next to another horse and lots of reassurance but a verbal "ah ah" or " no" loud voice if she raises a leg . Tbh I wouldnt make a big deal of it...

 

[Mongoose11]

What you are describing is fear not aggression. I'd manage her by not tying her up next to another horse and lots of reassurance but a verbal "ah ah" or " no" loud voice if she raises a leg . Tbh I wouldnt make a big deal of it...

This is what I do, I try to make a big noise 'ahhh. Ah ah ah - don't you dare' and move her feet. If I'm close enough then I'll give her a good smack on whatever is nearest.

Does the situation become more complicated knowing she clipped a girl who was leading her horse? Again, I 100% believe she had no intention of making contact. That's not me being a knobhead, it's just clear that it is the case given the fact that she has always done this and never, ever made contact even when very able to..

Just wondering what others would do going forward.

 

[Jo1987]

Lots of horses behave like this, I was always taught not to lead horses close enough to be within reach of being kicked, and on the one occasion I was forced to by an owner who was so certain her horse wouldn't kick, I was kicked. Not the horses fault, I should have insisted the owner moved him round to give me enough room.
My pony used to do a similar thing to your mare, I got round it by reassuring him, scratching his withers, distracting with a treat - I knew he was afraid as I knew he had been beaten up by other ponies at his old home (a riding school) and I was 12 and thought I could fix anything with a wither scratch and a treat. I was right on this occasion!

 

[SPSP]

G is exactly the same. However, with him it's being stallionish rather than him acting up out of fear. Equally, he isn't last in the pecking order but rather at the very top- he is without a doubt the leader in his herd of 5. All the others are mares and foal. He wasn't socialised at a young age at all and as a result if he gets near to another horse (particularly a gelding) he'll think about kicking, but, as with yours, has never actually done it. The best way that I have dealt with it is by simply not making a huge fuss when he threatens to kick. If I really need to it's a loud word and moving his hindquarters around- that's literally it and then he's listening again. A year ago he would squeal and do an on the spot piaffe even at the sight of another similarly dominant looking gelding however, now, he's is so much better. Yes, he can be grumpy but I can happily let him rub noses with someone else's horse and not have to worry about it getting kicked. This has just come from quiet, no fuss but firm handling. Similarly, with yours if she's nervous then I'm sure this approach would be of benefit, show her that there's no reason to be afraid by not acting up yourself. Best of luck- I know it can be a horrible situation to be in!

 

[Apercrumbie]

This isn't aggressive towards humans (apart from that one unfortunate incident) so no I wouldn't be pasting the horse. I think the reassuring and distracting technique is probably the best in this situation. As long as everyone on your yard is aware then there shouldn't be any problems.

 

[Mongoose11]

Everyone has been made aware and the location of her stable has been chosen to try and minimise any possibilities while travelling to and from.

She's now known far and wide as the 'kicker' and is relegated to the back on hacks despite me being clear that she displays no such behaviour with a rider.

Gah.

 

[JFTDWS]

I'd say that's the fault of the girl leading the other horse, to be honest. I've been kicked by other horses playing horseball - not the horses' faults, but the riders' (or in one case, mine for harassing a new horse in a tackle!). I don't think you can stop horses kicking out at other horses - though a malicious kick while I was riding would get a reprimand because a real kicker is a pig in warm ups / groups -but a bit of kicking out when the horse is intimidated and someone else has invaded her boundaries is a different matter.

 

[Bede]

Surely any horse might kick, even a horse which has 'never' kicked before; we are not there all the time to see everything they get up to.
That being so it's always safest to give the back end a wide berth

 

[Goldenstar]

If you are on a shared yard I would be putting a line of buckets or cones behind her when she's tied up on the yard and never leaving her unattended .

 

[Mongoose11]

If you are on a shared yard I would be putting a line of buckets or cones behind her when she's tied up on the yard and never leaving her unattended .

Really? Maybe ring a bell too? I've never heard of/thought of doing this! As a visual warning to others?

 

[Evie91]

Mongoose - I think it's fair she relegated to the back in hacks. No chance of an accident then. If I was riding her and out with others I would offer to go at the back and if I was riding another and out with her I would want her at the back.
There is always a chance that if she does feel threatened she would follow through with a kick - fortunately you are aware of her behaviour and not put her in that situation.
I'm paranoid about this though. Many, many years ago I had a share horse. He was tied up outside and I was grooming him. Another livery went to go behind to take his horse to the stsble. I offered to move mine but he declined saying he went behind my horse all of the time and he carried on past.Didn't even see or hear anything happen but my horse kicked his and severed the other horses artery in his leg. Obviously vet was called, managed to save the horse - just. The amount of blood was phenomenal - I held a pad to the wound whilst waiting for the vet - but in the course of getting in, blood had squirted up stable walls, pooled on the floor, looked like a massacre. I could feel the blood pumping out as we waited. It was a horrendous experience. One I next wish to repeat and could have easily have been avoided. The share horse never did that before or since ( he's many years dead now, assume the other must be too).

Now I always make sure there is plenty of room and will ask people to move if necessary or insist on moving the horse I'm with (even if there is no history of kicking). I'm sure sometimes people have thought I'm over cautious but that experience has stayed with me and the fact it could have been so easily avoided!

 

[Mongoose11]

Why should she be relegated to the back during hacks? She does not display any form of intolerant behaviour when ridden. Not an ear back, nothing. She has had horses up her bum, by her side, jumped cross country pairs, been in packed collecting rings/warm ups and not once has she lifted a leg while ridden.

She, therefore, has the same kicking potential as any other horse with any legs.

 

[Evie91]

As I said because of my previous experience I'm paranoid about this this. Grumpy on the ground would make me wary. Your horse though, so you do what you like! I was only offering an opinion
As for pasting - no I wouldn't. I'd just use a cross tone/word and maybe a little smack.
Wouldn't leave her tied up outside unattended. I'd probably do most grooming, tacking up in the stable - to reduce risk of incident! Save outside tying up for bathing and farrier! As I say that's my opinion and I am overly cautious after seeing what a split second warning kick can do!

 

[Goldenstar]

Really? Maybe ring a bell too? I've never heard of/thought of doing this! As a visual warning to others?

As a visual warning to others .
This a serious issue a kick from a horse can kill OP knows her horse does this it's an easy way to ensure people don't wonder into the kick zone .
Your comment about the bell is facetious , it helps no one .

 

[Mongoose11]

I'm well aware it can be serious, but we have a horse here that in five years has never injured another horse despite having been in a herd, not in a herd, ridden closely with others etc etc and now we need buckets, cones and always to be at the back?

What on earth would we suggest for a horse that HAS kicked another horse?

The comment about the bell was, indeed, facetious.

 

[Evie91]

Always at the back!

 

[Mongoose11]

Always at the back!

So the horse that HAS kicked always goes to the back, the horse that MIGHT kick always goes to the back.....that leaves us without a front end, or a middle...

 

[Evie91]

Anyway you said yourself she has been relegated to the back. So don't see your issue with my comment, agreeing with that.
Not trying to be argumentative - I'm just bemused!

 

[Evie91]

In that case everyone just needs to hack out on their own!!!

 

[Mongoose11]

Anyway you said yourself she has been relegated to the back. So don't see your issue with my comment, agreeing with that.
Not trying to be argumentative - I'm just bemused!

I don't agree with her being relegated, sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear in the posts above?

 

[Mongoose11]

In that case everyone just needs to hack out on their own!!!

Don't make me go all John Mcenroe on you!

 

[Evie91]

I see. Well in that case - only hack out with those who are not bothered what position she goes in. If you are with the cautious folks stay at the back, if you don't like this idea don't go with them. You are unlikely to change people's minds by arguing the point but if you do a few hacks and she behaves (as you have said she always does) then no doubt they will feel more relaxed and likely she can go in whatever position again.
Personally I've always loved hacking on my own (company is nice too) as I can choose where I go, how long for and what speed!!

 

[Evie91]

Sorry that's just my sense of humour - I find that funny - each person has to go on their own, leave the yard at fifteen minute intervals and go in different directions - problem solved!!! Although not sure how it works if someone starts catching up with another - Aaargh!!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

My Draft mare is very protective of her personal space. So far as I know she has never kicked a person, although she may have in the past but I do know that she has bitten the owner before me (tbh, my sympathies lie with the horse there - whole other thread). She will fight in the field if the other horses don't heed her warnings, atm our 4 are kept in 2 pairs to avoid trouble even though it would be better grass management to keep them all together.

She is managed carefully and has never done more than pull a face at another horse when ridden BUT I am careful, I keep her at the back of a ride of unfamiliar horses and warn other riders to avoid getting too close to her rear end. She now rides alongside her field companion, fairly happily but it has taken work to achieve this, gradually getting closer. I still wouldn't get close enough to pass anything to the other horse's rider.

Last summer there was a young stallion with his mares in a field which we have to pass to go on most of our hacks, I had seen him when I was on a solo hack and the Draft mare gave him a scornful look and continued on her way - I rode on the wrong side of the road to be on the safe side. Then we went out with sis and her horse, who was very interested in the stallion, he is interested in any mare which passes him. The Draft mare got very close to her companion to shield her from the stallion and usher her past, something which I couldn't have predicted. I won't be pushing her to get so close again unless circumstances demand it.

I think that protecting their personal space from another horse is very different from threatening a person. I do think that the horse has to learn that kicking out at another horse when there is a person in the way is out of order but equally, I believe that many liveries don't watch what they are doing or take the correct care around other people's horses. They obviously weren't taught to ride by the woman who taught me - she would have gone ballistic if some-one had led a horse close enough to another one to get kicked.

ETA, my mare goes happily in front or behind on hacks with sis and her horse but I trust sis to ride sensibly with a horse-length between - I really do wonder a) where some people learned to ride and b) where they keep their brains!

 

[Mongoose11]

Sorry that's just my sense of humour - I find that funny - each person has to go on their own, leave the yard at fifteen minute intervals and go in different directions - problem solved!!! Although not sure how it works if someone starts catching up with another - Aaargh!!

 

[Theocat]

Your horse regularly threatens to kick, to the extent you've made special arrangements for where she's stabled on the yard to minimise risk, and has actually made contact with someone. You may be confident that she won't kick under saddle, but surely you can understand why others might be wary? As someone else on this thread has already demonstrated, it wouldn't be the first time an owner has asserted that the horse definitely wouldn't kick, only for the horse to prove them wrong.

I agree that there's a bit of difference between a horse being bolshy or aggressive, versus one that's just protective of personal space, but even so I'd reprimand. Maybe it's because I've always been on yards where there are children present, but I'd be trying to stop the behaviour. I don't think waving a leg as a threat merits a "pasting", but certainly if mine ever did that he'd get a good hard no-nonsense wallop as a reminder the behaviour was not acceptable. Establishing and maintaining boundaries should not scare the horse, if anything it should reassure it and make it happier.

 

[Mongoose11]

I understand TC, but do five years of no kicking under saddle count for nothing? I'd say that makes her as likely as some and less likely than other to kick another horse.

 

[Mongoose11]

I understand TC, but do five years of no kicking under saddle count for nothing? I'd say that makes her as likely as some and less likely than other to kick another horse.

Perhaps I should start being more wary of other horses who have never kicked while ridden and ask for them to go to the back? Sulk.

 

[Mongoose11]

Duplicate post. Oooh apologies, my posting is doing weird things!