My horse threatens to kick...

[Theocat]

Unfortunately people don't really think like that; you get horses who kick and you get horses who don't (or haven't yet!) You may well be confident, but to be honest I've never personally come across one who's a kicker on the ground and not under saddle, so I can understand why people would err on the side of caution. It's about minimising risk and to most people a horse who kicks on the ground is a bigger risk than a horse who is never seen to kick.

If others don't want to hack behind you, TBH that's their choice. I do see your point, but I can see theirs too, and when it comes to their horses, it's up to them to make that decision about the perceived risk, not you. I do feel for you, but this isn't something I think you can impose on them.

 

[Arizahn]

I think that protecting their personal space from another horse is very different from threatening a person. I do think that the horse has to learn that kicking out at another horse when there is a person in the way is out of order but equally, I believe that many liveries don't watch what they are doing or take the correct care around other people's horses. They obviously weren't taught to ride by the woman who taught me - she would have gone ballistic if some-one had led a horse close enough to another one to get kicked.

ETA, my mare goes happily in front or behind on hacks with sis and her horse but I trust sis to ride sensibly with a horse-length between - I really do wonder a) where some people learned to ride and b) where they keep their brains!

^^This.

 

[SpringArising]

Your horse displays some threatening behaviour towards others, so (quite rightly) I wouldn't expect anyone to want to be riding behind it or walking behind it, regardless of the fact she's OK when ridden.

If she raised her leg and threatened to kick something, then she'd get a yank on the rope and a swift 'NO!' from me. But 'pasting' her is definitely not what I'd be doing; especially as you've left it five years. I also don't think keeping her on her own is doing her any favours.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I understand TC, but do five years of no kicking under saddle count for nothing? I'd say that makes her as likely as some and less likely than other to kick another horse.

It may be unfair but it doesn't really matter what you think if people don't want to take the chance. Also if you always ride at the back how do you know what she is like for example if in canter a horse overtakes or gets a bit close as can happen in a group?

Having seen my friend kicked by another horse on her shin whilst riding behind another horse and having to ride about an hour home with her in agony and struggling not to faint, one horse who wouldn't walk (the kicker) and mine who I'd never ridden before and was as strong as an Ox to keep in walk to stay with her it was not fun. You could argue in the first case it was my friends fault for getting too close but in all the excitement of the gallop the horses just got a bit close to each other and when one tried to over take the other it kicked out.

I have another friend who had her ankle shattered by being kicked by a horse whilst warming up at a clinic, so often it is a person that gets kicked rather than a horse.

 

[Mongoose11]

It may be unfair but it doesn't really matter what you think if people don't want to take the chance. Also if you always ride at the back how do you know what she is like for example if in canter a horse overtakes or gets a bit close as can happen in a group?

Having seen my friend kicked by another horse on her shin whilst riding behind another horse and having to ride about an hour home with her in agony and struggling not to faint, one horse who wouldn't walk (the kicker) and mine who I'd never ridden before and was as strong as an Ox to keep in walk to stay with her it was not fun. You could argue in the first case it was my friends fault for getting too close but in all the excitement of the gallop the horses just got a bit close to each other and when one tried to over take the other it kicked out.

I have another friend who had her ankle shattered by being kicked by a horse whilst warming up at a clinic, so often it is a person that gets kicked rather than a horse.

I've never ridden at the back before. Nobody on other yards were bothered as they had never seen her display anything other than normal behaviour for a horse that doesn't like horses led by them. On this yard, she has been relegated to the back because some people assume that shifty on the ground means shifty under saddle.

Why would you think she had never been over taken or ridden in a group before? My OP made it clear that she had been in sponsored rides, large hacks, cross country pairs etc.

She's been jostled out on the field, overtaken at speed, all sorts. She really couldn't be more perfect under saddle.

 

[Mongoose11]

Your horse displays some threatening behaviour towards others, so (quite rightly) I wouldn't expect anyone to want to be riding behind it or walking behind it, regardless of the fact she's OK when ridden.

If she raised her leg and threatened to kick something, then she'd get a yank on the rope and a swift 'NO!' from me. But 'pasting' her is definitely not what I'd be doing; especially as you've left it five years. I also don't think keeping her on her own is doing her any favours.

She's always been the same whether out on her own or in herd.

 

[Mongoose11]

But 'pasting' her is definitely not what I'd be doing; especially as you've left it five years. I also don't think keeping her on her own is doing her any favours.

I've been doing what you've suggested for five years, are you suggesting I should have pasted her at the beginning? I haven't let her do it in my view and done nothing.

 

[Mongoose11]

I think we have established a view that I shouldn't paste her, but she should, for all time, be ridden at the back of a ride because, you know, one day she might kick someone.
Thanks all.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I think we have established a view that I shouldn't paste her, but she should, for all time, be ridden at the back of a ride because, you know, one day she might kick someone.
Thanks all.

Actually that isn't what I would do!

I would find a sensible hacking partner who understands good manners and safety, so probably someone over 40 - unless you know someone younger who fits the bill - (I await the outrage) and hack with your horse taking turns to lead or take the rear. BUT when hacking with the numpties who can't be trusted to keep a horse-length between horses, or the unknown, I would keep her at the back.

 

[Mongoose11]

Actually that isn't what I would do!

I would find a sensible hacking partner who understands good manners and safety, so probably someone over 40 - unless you know someone younger who fits the bill - (I await the outrage) and hack with your horse taking turns to lead or take the rear. BUT when hacking with the numpties who can't be trusted to keep a horse-length between horses, or the unknown, I would keep her at the back.

Having thought about it, there are only certain people who do, in my opinion wrongly, insist on her being at the back, so when I am with them, at the back she will have to go. I'll help to spread the word of her good behaviour by continuing to get her out with reasonable riders.

It's when we are in big groups (more people who tend to wear air jackets at a walk), that I am told to go at the back.

Can you tell I'm bitter? Thanks for your advice

 

[Theocat]

I think we have established a view that I shouldn't paste her, but she should, for all time, be ridden at the back of a ride because, you know, one day she might kick someone.
Thanks all.

Actually, I think we've established that you can't blame other riders for choosing not to ride behind her. Not the same thing at all; I think you need to grow up a bit, especially in the light of your last post in which it sounds, quite frankly, as if you're making a mountain out of a molehill - you have people who are happy to hack with you in front, so I really can't see what the fuss is about. Deal with the behaviour on the ground, and hack with those who are happy to hack with you. And maybe learn that others are entitled to hold their own opinions too; you cannot say someone is "wrong" for choosing not to hack behind you...

 

[Mongoose11]

Actually, I think we've established that you can't blame other riders for choosing not to ride behind her. Not the same thing at all; I think you need to grow up a bit, especially in the light of your last post in which it sounds, quite frankly, as if you're making a mountain out of a molehill - you have people who are happy to hack with you in front, so I really can't see what the fuss is about. Deal with the behaviour on the ground, and hack with those who are happy to hack with you. And maybe learn that others are entitled to hold their own opinions too; you cannot say someone is "wrong" for choosing not to hack behind you...

It's my opinion that they are, I don't force it upon them by refusing to hack at the back. In fact, I'm fairly gracious about it by not telling them that I think my horse is as likely as anyone else's to kick! You said it was something I can't impose on them and I don't....

My OP wasn't about the hacking, it kind of turned into a bit of a spin off.

Why has this become personal?

 

[wiglet]

My mare sounds very similar to yours OP. In the field she's always bottom of the pecking order, has never kicked any horse but has received several kick/bite injuries herself.

Riding out she will happily go first or last, never pulls faces and has never kicked or threatened to kick - even when another horse we ride with constantly naps and backs into her. She has been kicked twice by other horses when hacking out though.

Tied up on the yard she will pull faces and has on occasion lifted a leg when someone walks a horse past. I growl and tell her no, push her over- the usual stuff. She has NEVER actually kicked any horse or person so does this make her a kicker? Certainly she's labelled a kicker by some... Dispite it being their horses that have actually kicked...

I don't let it bother me - I know she isn't a kicker. If people tried to relegate me to the back of the ride all the time, I just wouldn't ride with them. You can never change people's mind - just make sure when she's tied up on the yard, you (or a trusted friend) is always with her - some people just love to exaggerate... If u know what I mean

 

[JFTDWS]

FWIW, I'd be annoyed about that too, Mongoose. I've been caught in the cross fire of Fergs kicking out at Dae before. I still tell people he is absolutely fine to ride up the back of in an emergency. He's the emergency stop on a lot of rides! He doesn't kick under saddle - ever. He's played horseball, been ride and lead (and lead from the ride horse), used as a buffer and been run into in warm ups more often that I can remember. If someone saw his kick at D in the field and refused to ride behind him, I'd probably die laughing at them.

 

[Mongoose11]

FWIW, I'd be annoyed about that too, Mongoose. I've been caught in the cross fire of Fergs kicking out at Dae before. I still tell people he is absolutely fine to ride up the back of in an emergency. He's the emergency stop on a lot of rides! He doesn't kick under saddle - ever. He's played horseball, been ride and lead (and lead from the ride horse), used as a buffer and been run into in warm ups more often that I can remember. If someone saw his kick at D in the field and refused to ride behind him, I'd probably die laughing at them.

I find it very hard not to tell them what I think...

 

[JFTDWS]

I find it very hard not to tell them what I think...

What would happen if you did?

 

[millitiger]

I'm afraid i wouldn't want to ride behind something by choice, that can be dodgy behind on the ground and has made contact with a person.
you may see it as illogical and that's your opinion but we wouldn't be hacking together in that case

 

[Mongoose11]

What would happen if you did?

I think they'd fail to compute...that horse HAS kicked out before, you know!

 

[Mongoose11]

I'm afraid i wouldn't want to ride behind something by choice, that can be dodgy behind on the ground and has made contact with a person.
you may see it as illogical and that's your opinion but we wouldn't be hacking together in that case

If you saw a horse playing in the field with yours and kicking out would you feel the same?

 

[JFTDWS]

I think they'd fail to compute...that horse HAS kicked out before, you know!

I don't think I've ever met a horse that hasn't!

Though I have met one which kicked F in training and they brought him back again the next week to play again... That, I was not happy about.

 

[Boulty]

To be honest in the described situation I would make it known that she needs to be given space when people are leading horses past and would try and avoid having her tied up where she's in the way during busy times if practical. Other person really should not have been passing close enough to get kicked (unless your horse shot backwards of course) and it's normally seen as polite to ask before squeezing past tied up horses

 

[SpringArising]

In your original post you say:

she will raise a leg, *kick out*, act up. BUT she has never, ever kicked another horse.

So, she does kick out, she just hasn't hit the target yet. Unless you meant something else?

 

[Mongoose11]

In your original post you say:



So, she does kick out, she just hasn't hit the target yet. Unless you meant something else?

You seem to suggest that I have contradicted myself somewhere...I don't think I have, but I could be wrong.

She doesn't attempt to meet the target and never has, even when she could. She has bunny hopped at a horse and stuck a leg out by a foot (for example) when she could quite as easily given a right cow kick and got it smart in the leg. She has never made contact because she doesn't intend to.

Seriously, am I missing a trick here? We understand that horses are capable of choosing to issue a warning rather than doling out a physical attack, right?

 

[Charmin]

Any horse that I'm wary of kicking out on the ground I'd be wary of kicking out under saddle too. Perhaps more so if a fast hack as their blood gets up.

I'm not so sure what's so bad at being at the back though?

I used to have a mare who was a bit dodgy with others on the ground and liked her own space. She just wanted to be left alone - they had two fields and she was always opposite end to the others. She wasn't really part of the herd, more someone that happened to inhabit the same space. Everyone else was submissive to her though.

She never ever kicked out under saddle. But everyone was wary of her on the ground so she was always at the back. It didn't bother me.

FWIW she was very much like yours. I fully believed she never intended to make contact. But someone rode right up the back of her out hunting (we were at the back of the field and she had a red ribbon on but this guy was lost and out of control - used her as a buffer as she's big) and she panicked and cow kicked. Not in the direction of the horse - more a warning - I don't believe there was intent to make contact. Just so happened the horse had moved and stepped right into the kick. There was an awful crack at the contact and I thought she'd broken it's leg. She hadn't, and the horse was fine.

Horses are extremely powerful creatures and kicks can do a lot of damage. I don't believe you can say 100% that a horse will never, ever kick out. But horses showing signs such as bunny hopping and sticking legs out would be one I'd steer clear of. If we were to hack out together and you weren't happy at the back then I'd probably not hack with you again. I'd be fine side by side if the hack permitted it.

Someone has to go at the back though - I wouldn't take it personally.

 

[Mongoose11]

Thanks all. I'll continue to growl at her on the ground and I'll steer clear of anyone who doesn't understand the most basic horse behaviour

Good to know she's not too unusual in her general dislike of fellow equines!

 

[Charmin]

The horse has never kicked out under saddle. Not once, in five years, in any situation.

Never. Just like yours and yours and yours.

Gaaaaaaahhhhhh!

But thank you all for your thoughts xx

I understand what you're saying.

But you've also said she's bunny hopped and she's 'stuck a foot out' and to me that's not far off kicking. Sticking a foot out IMO is kicking out - she just might have rubbish aim.

I know you might think she doesn't intend to and yes it may be out of fear but it remains that your horse does have an inclination towards kicking (despite never having made contact) and that would make me wary.

 

[SpringArising]

Thanks all. I'll continue to growl at her on the ground and I'll steer clear of anyone who doesn't understand the most basic horse behaviour

Odd that you are clearly such a natural horsewoman, yet still have the issue after five years!

I don't understand why you started this thread - it's very clear that you didn't want anyone's advice or opinion after all.

No one has been mean at all; we've just said that as your horse kicks (phrase it how you like), we wouldn't like to ride behind her.

 

[Mongoose11]

Odd that you are clearly such a natural horsewoman, yet still have the issue after five years!

I don't understand why you started this thread - it's very clear that you didn't want anyone's advice or opinion after all.

No one has been mean at all; we've just said that as your horse kicks (phrase it how you like), we wouldn't like to ride behind her.

I wouldn't call myself a natural horsewoman at all, I can only conclude that you are being sarcastic.

My thread was actually about whether anyone thought I should be laying in to her for the threats. The hacking was a spin off. I asked for opinions on that and I got a few (and said thank you). This was the question: Would you 'manage' her or, at 15 years old now, start 'pasting' her?

I haven't ever actively sought to change this behaviour in a concentrated way, I was wondering whether I should and in a more dramatic fashion.

Who said anyone had been mean? There was one personal comment that I referred to as being personal - not mean?

 

[Mongoose11]

I understand what you're saying.

But you've also said she's bunny hopped and she's 'stuck a foot out' and to me that's not far off kicking. Sticking a foot out IMO is kicking out - she just might have rubbish aim.

I know you might think she doesn't intend to and yes it may be out of fear but it remains that your horse does have an inclination towards kicking (despite never having made contact) and that would make me wary.

Ok, that's fair.

I did say myself though that she does kick out. I'm clear about that. What I'm also clear about is that she does not intend to make contact.

The thread asked if anyone thought I should be doing anything different when she does it, some offered advice and some didn't answer the question at all.

Thanks though.

 

[applecart14]

It's when we are in big groups (more people who tend to wear air jackets at a walk), that I am told to go at the back.

This cracked me up. I hack out in an air jacket if I feel I may have an issue due to windy weather or my horse being a little fresh. I don't hack tend to trot on the roads as he has coffin joint arthritis. So I do a lot of work at a walk whilst out hacking. Does this mean I am a bit of a numpty for doing so? I am no less a capable rider than those that don't wear air jackets. Just more sensible I guess.

I am not trying to be argumentative I am just wondering why the air jacket was brought into the conversation and how wearing one makes you more likely to be authorative to the point that you would tell someone to ride at the back. ???

I personally hate riding at the back. Horse goes into donkey mode, totally switches off and has an out of body experience and would happily drift off to sleep if I let him. Whereas at the front he has meaning and purpose and his ears go forward and he is interested in life.