My horse was sound, got shod, and is now crippled....

[Michen]

I stand corrected - It's Healthy Hooves (?) that is coated in sugar, not Healthy Tummy. Fibre Pencils are still not my idea of a good feed, sorry, molasses, wheat feed etc do not make up a good cube in my book and since moving from feeding that sort of stuff my horses hooves all improved massively. I had no idea the effect of commercial feed on feet until I changed it. Also alfalfa instantly makes my horses footy and it seems to be something that's quite common in barefoot horses so it's often avoided as a feed.

Horses are designed to digest some sugars. yes, but those naturally occurring in grasses etc, not molasses... just like people cope with sugars in fruits better than those in processed foods.

What facilities do you need? Only a tiny percentage of the horses who go barefoot in the UK go to Rockley, the rest are done at home.

If he looses a shoe is he footsore without it?

Pics would be great

Re Boots, I did buy some and they did help. I was feeding a good diet first so didn't have a huge issue with removing shoes except with the one who was getting afalfa and who had shoes removed and was trimmed by the farrier, he was lame for weeks and lived in boots initially. I would certainly recommend having a pair, I rarely use them now but when I do I'm very glad to have them!

I'm really not trying to be awkward, I just wish someone had told me al this when I started seeing problems. You're little horse sounds like my mare and in hindsight I had problems 2 years before her diagnosis that I did nothing about other than trust my farrier. I could have saved myself a lot of heartache if I'd had access to the right info.

Fab thanks for the advice, I'll look into those super fibre pencils then. I was so close to switching to pure feeds but my vet recommended alfalfa as he likely has mild ulcers (a few warning signs but nothing awful- he's being scoped in a few weeks if they continue).

When he lost the shoe in the field he quite literally held his leg up in the air as if it had been chopped off. He walked in to the stable as if he was treading on a path of nails!!!!! He really is a dramatic little thing at the best of times.

I know what I'll be reading about tonight then I assumed from the little knowledge I do have that you need to set up some sort of track system to get them walking on varying terrains of ground, but that's just things I've skimmed over in the past I have no idea how true that is. I'll have a chat with my farrier today and see what he says. Did you farrier support you or do you have a specialist barefoot trimmer?

 

[Michen]

Hi, sorry not meaning to patronise, just seemed clear to me that a different approach to his foot balance by your farrier is the most likely cause, how ever well meaning and "correct" it may have been. Given your further posts, I would urge your farrier and the previous farrier to discuss him and for the former's experience of what works for him to be passed on.....good for all concerned.

No worries Andalucian. apologies for being overly sensitive! I agree, I've got his old farriers number off the trainer now so I'm going to get mine to give him a shout (though not sure how he will take this but if he's got anything about him he will do the best for my boy).

I've never experienced a horse that automatically got so sore if a bit too much toe was taken off though,it does concern me that there's something else there. That or he is a big woose- also a possibility give the drama he's made out of various other things!

 

[Michen]

Cutting molasses from their diet made a huge difference to all of my horses' horn quality. All I did was swap from a molassed chaff to a non molassed one and all had event lines from the change with much better horn above the event line.

When my anglo had her shoes removed due to hoof balance issues that were getting worse in shoes (long toes, under-run heels), I was relieved that she never missed a step on most surfaces. I did start off walking her in-hand and then progressed to riding, but she was always fine on tarmac, in the school and in the field. I would have bought boots if she needed them though.

This video is well worth watching (everyone with horses should watch it IMO ).

http://www.thehorse.com/videos/34609/is-the-hoof-smart-adaptability-of-the-equine-foot

Thanks I will watch that this eve! His healthy tummy is unmollased but I think I need to swap his Saracen super fibre pencils anyway. I did attempt to feed him on hi fi molasses free, he was FURIOUS! But he gobbles down the healthy tummy.

High maintenance beast!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I assumed from the little knowledge I do have that you need to set up some sort of track system to get them walking on varying terrains of ground

I use a Farrier (although not the one that caused the hoof balance issues in the first place). She had her shoes off at the normal 6 week shoeing interval, but they weren't trimmed, so were slightly long which I think helped prevent any soreness. I don't have a track, but I walked her in-hand down the lanes (just 10 mins at first, then built it up) several times a week (aimed for every day, but didn't quite manage it).

 

[BethH]

Hi - my horse is coming up to 2yrs barfoot in April and his feet have just over the last month or so had another massive change for the better, I really am gobsmacked how fantastic his feet are and that after nearly 2years they are still continuing to show dramatic improvements. You can do all sorts of things to make barefoot work but from my experience, diet is key, my horse has always had a sugar free diet as he is a nutter on mix (it's the 1/4 tb in him I reckon!) so has Top Spec Top Chop as a chaff, charnwood linseed & benevit multivit with some high fibre nuts for his football. I also give him rosehips & celery seed powder for his joints. He will get some fast fibre if he needs a little extra in the Winter. He appears to be allergic to pure lucerne/alfalfa and the top chop blends it with good quality straw & mint - he is a good doer so the less calories the better. The other really key thing is to use someone who understands foot balance be it farrier or trimmer. I used a really good trimmer - mine is a DAEP qualified trimmer who has undertaken proper training. If you look at their website you should find recommendations for your area if you go down that route. They seem to understand so much more about how the foot works & will trim in a sympathetic way ensuring the angles are gently corrected (I hope!) Very best of luck, let us know how you get on.

 

[Scarlett]

Fab thanks for the advice, I'll look into those super fibre pencils then. I was so close to switching to pure feeds but my vet recommended alfalfa as he likely has mild ulcers (a few warning signs but nothing awful- he's being scoped in a few weeks if they continue).

When he lost the shoe in the field he quite literally held his leg up in the air as if it had been chopped off. He walked in to the stable as if he was treading on a path of nails!!!!! He really is a dramatic little thing at the best of times.

I know what I'll be reading about tonight then I assumed from the little knowledge I do have that you need to set up some sort of track system to get them walking on varying terrains of ground, but that's just things I've skimmed over in the past I have no idea how true that is. I'll have a chat with my farrier today and see what he says. Did you farrier support you or do you have a specialist barefoot trimmer?

Alfalfa is high in calcium which is supposed to help settle the acid in the stomach, I read though that horses only need to have it be 20% of that food intake per day and that type of fibre (legumes?) is in grazing so they normally get as much as they need from their grass and hay intake, hence why lots of horses can't have it in a bucket feed, especially in large quantities. I have one who LOVES it but one small feed of it makes him look like is legs are falling off

There's a barefoot theory that if your horse isn't sound out of shoes then it isn't sound. I always thought it was normal for a horse to be lame when it lost a shoe but I realise now it isn't, certainly not hopping lame. My mare had her shoes pulled once because she was being turned away, she was crippled farrier blamed her TB feet and I reshod, 2 years later I realised that it was a big glaring sign of the problems with her feet and if I had addressed it then we might not have had the problems we had. Hindsight is always 20/20.

No tracks here. Just the right diet, a good mineral supplement, lots of movement (in boots if needed) and I got in a good, sensible trimmer (UKNHCP registered) who held my hand through the tough times. I found farriers lack the knowledge in trimming and maintaining a working hoof without shoes, it's not covered by their training. My trimmers have always been able to help with mineral balancing and diet which I've found to be an important part of the process.

My mare that I talk of had soft tissue damage as well as changes to the navicular bone. She went of and had a foal and is now back in work. I've just had to get a new saddle for her as, after all those years of what I know now was sore feet, she is now moving so much better and has bulked out considerably. She is only 12 and I'm hopeful that now I'll finally have the horse we knew she could be.

 

[Scarlett]

Oh, if your going to look at replacing the Fibre Pencils look at good old fashioned grass nuts and micronised linseed - the barefoot diet staple of TB owners everywhere!

 

[ester]

He definitely looks over at knee not back in those pics OP .

be careful about your farrier doing much with them this afternoon, if he has done too much with them already. It does sound like he has always been on the edge of having issues with his feet and I think considering barefoot transition at home is a good idea, for the long term at least and just to let his feet sort themselves out a bit.

 

[Michen]

He definitely looks over at knee not back in those pics OP .

be careful about your farrier doing much with them this afternoon, if he has done too much with them already. It does sound like he has always been on the edge of having issues with his feet and I think considering barefoot transition at home is a good idea, for the long term at least and just to let his feet sort themselves out a bit.

Well from what I know that's a bit better than being back at the knee he's not doing anything to his feet today he's just checking up on him. Think he's feeling a bit bad! Will update with pics of his feet later

 

[Michen]

Alfalfa is high in calcium which is supposed to help settle the acid in the stomach, I read though that horses only need to have it be 20% of that food intake per day and that type of fibre (legumes?) is in grazing so they normally get as much as they need from their grass and hay intake, hence why lots of horses can't have it in a bucket feed, especially in large quantities. I have one who LOVES it but one small feed of it makes him look like is legs are falling off

There's a barefoot theory that if your horse isn't sound out of shoes then it isn't sound. I always thought it was normal for a horse to be lame when it lost a shoe but I realise now it isn't, certainly not hopping lame. My mare had her shoes pulled once because she was being turned away, she was crippled farrier blamed her TB feet and I reshod, 2 years later I realised that it was a big glaring sign of the problems with her feet and if I had addressed it then we might not have had the problems we had. Hindsight is always 20/20.

No tracks here. Just the right diet, a good mineral supplement, lots of movement (in boots if needed) and I got in a good, sensible trimmer (UKNHCP registered) who held my hand through the tough times. I found farriers lack the knowledge in trimming and maintaining a working hoof without shoes, it's not covered by their training. My trimmers have always been able to help with mineral balancing and diet which I've found to be an important part of the process.

My mare that I talk of had soft tissue damage as well as changes to the navicular bone. She went of and had a foal and is now back in work. I've just had to get a new saddle for her as, after all those years of what I know now was sore feet, she is now moving so much better and has bulked out considerably. She is only 12 and I'm hopeful that now I'll finally have the horse we knew she could be.

Thanks Scarlett. Waiting for farrier now and going to have a chat with him. I've never had a horse barefoot and I am worried about the amount of road work and Stoney tracks we have around here. Especially given how long it will likely take to be able to work him on any sort of surface-I'd quite like to get out and about on him this summer! Having said that, I'd rather have him happy and sound for years to come whatever the implications now.

Have taken some pics of his feet so will post later when I'm back on laptop

 

[Scarlett]

Thanks Scarlett. Waiting for farrier now and going to have a chat with him. I've never had a horse barefoot and I am worried about the amount of road work and Stoney tracks we have around here. Especially given how long it will likely take to be able to work him on any sort of surface-I'd quite like to get out and about on him this summer! Having said that, I'd rather have him happy and sound for years to come whatever the implications now.

Have taken some pics of his feet so will post later when I'm back on laptop

Don't worry about the roadwork, it's actually really, really good for feet and wont wear the hooves away to stumps. I had a horse walked with a concrete base when I first took shoes off and they went in it daily, my trimmer credited it with how well they did. The hoof soon grows to support the workload and while things al catch up boots are a really good option.

Looking forward to pics

 

[Michen]

Don't worry about the roadwork, it's actually really, really good for feet and wont wear the hooves away to stumps. I had a horse walked with a concrete base when I first took shoes off and they went in it daily, my trimmer credited it with how well they did. The hoof soon grows to support the workload and while things al catch up boots are a really good option.

Looking forward to pics

So bloomin farrier didn't show which is annoying considering I shifted work to have a proper chat with him! He's not usually like that but frustrating all the same. Pics attached- horrendously flat as you can see

Obviously he's only been shod twice since he left racing so he will have had extremely regular shoeing etc. That bit you can see between shoe and hoof is the special shoe he put on him when we thought his lameness was due to a bruise, its shaped like the shoe and is kinda woodeny.

I really, really know nothing about hoof angles etc. I've always had horses with good, simple feet with no problems. My last ex racer used to loose shoes terribly and took off chunks of his foot every time and my farrier managed to sort him out. After 6 months he never lost shoes and had cracking feet, so I've always gone by that. I'll be doing a lot of reading tonight anyway!

The man himself who says thank you everyone for all the advice!

 

[Gloi]

Those hooves seem to have very collapsed heels on those pictures. A break from shoes and booting him to go out would be likely to do a lot of good.

 

[Michen]

Those hooves seem to have very collapsed heels on those pictures. A break from shoes and booting him to go out would be likely to do a lot of good.

Booting to go out in field or just when out riding? Do most people boot all 4 when first removing shoes or just the fronts?

 

[BethH]

Not convinced about the feet - they are a bit bullnosed and the black one looks underrun - you know you could just take the shoes off & get a 2nd opinion from a decent qualified trimmer. As I said I like DAEP as I like the common sense & knowledge of the ex-farrier that has set up the training programme for them, but another poster has also mentioned a UKNHCP qualification too and there are more of those around. IMHO the heels don't look great and that won't help him move correctly - it could well be that your farrier has spotted that and his way of trying to get the heel back is to cut short to try to get the foot back underneath him, a common farriery trick. If you take the shoes off and give them time to get some decent growth you would give a trimmer more to work with and it will help him balance the foot. Definitely worth investigating all of your options - huge pat on the back by the way for being so open minded and open to the advice - he's a lucky horse I so hope you both have a wonderful future together.

 

[Michen]

Not convinced about the feet - they are a bit bullnosed and the black one looks underrun - you know you could just take the shoes off & get a 2nd opinion from a decent qualified trimmer. As I said I like DAEP as I like the common sense & knowledge of the ex-farrier that has set up the training programme for them, but another poster has also mentioned a UKNHCP qualification too and there are more of those around. IMHO the heels don't look great and that won't help him move correctly - it could well be that your farrier has spotted that and his way of trying to get the heel back is to cut short to try to get the foot back underneath him, a common farriery trick. If you take the shoes off and give them time to get some decent growth you would give a trimmer more to work with and it will help him balance the foot. Definitely worth investigating all of your options - huge pat on the back by the way for being so open minded and open to the advice - he's a lucky horse I so hope you both have a wonderful future together.

Thanks Beth. I guess that would explain why he cut his toe back so short and subsequently the horse went so sore? I'm looking at hoof boots now. I'm worried though about getting him from stable to field as he does have to walk over some hard stoney ground, and there wouldn't be much point in booting him for turnout (I don't think!?) as surely then his feet will never harden. I'm going to chat with my farrier and see what he says. I'm open to the idea of no shoes, but equally in the research I've started doing I'm coming across a fair number of people whose horses it didn't work for. Only one way to find out I guess!

And thanks, hopefully I will be lucky too and he's not "broken"!

 

[Andalucian]

I've never experienced a horse that automatically got so sore if a bit too much toe was taken off though,it does concern me that there's something else there. That or he is a big woose- also a possibility give the drama he's made out of various other things!

No worries, I'm a barefoot trimmer, but not all horses/owners are right for it, that said, there will be a reason why he can't cope with the change, but in the short term I don't think barefoot is the right answer. Get him right shod, then investigate what barefoot would involve, maybe get a consultation, then decide if it's viable for you both. Tell your farrier your concerns, and explain what the trainers told you about toe length, he will want to know, we all need to keep open to learning and each horse is an individual. Good luck.

 

[Michen]

No worries, I'm a barefoot trimmer, but not all horses/owners are right for it, that said, there will be a reason why he can't cope with the change, but in the short term I don't think barefoot is the right answer. Get him right shod, then investigate what barefoot would involve, maybe get a consultation, then decide if it's viable for you both. Tell your farrier your concerns, and explain what the trainers told you about toe length, he will want to know, we all need to keep open to learning and each horse is an individual. Good luck.

That's interesting to hear Andalucian, so you don't think I should be whipping those shoes off now then? Did you have a look at the pics I posted of his feet? They are terribly flat but of course that's not going to be a quick fix. Thank you very much for your advice.

 

[Michen]

No worries, I'm a barefoot trimmer, but not all horses/owners are right for it, that said, there will be a reason why he can't cope with the change, but in the short term I don't think barefoot is the right answer. Get him right shod, then investigate what barefoot would involve, maybe get a consultation, then decide if it's viable for you both. Tell your farrier your concerns, and explain what the trainers told you about toe length, he will want to know, we all need to keep open to learning and each horse is an individual. Good luck.

When I say whipping off now, I mean in the next few weeks once he's sound (he's about 80% there now)

 

[BethH]

You know for many people that it doesn't work for and I've known a few, it's either the diet that's not right or there is something else going on with the horse and the owner can't admit it and blames it on not coping without shoes. He does need to move over different surfaces to toughen the feet but if you go slowly but surely and don't push him to fast that will help. Do remember it's not just about the feet, in my own horses case, the foot balance was so bad it stressed the hocks and then the remedy of barefoot re-stressed the hock. The good thing is that you've seen a difference because your horse is talking loudly to you - I personally think that's a good thing he feels able to do so. You have heard him & jumped on it quickly. Do remember all of his ligaments and muscles will change as it affects his whole movement and you will take steps backwards as well as forwards, be careful about jumping for a while too as he will have weakness in the digital cushion etc etc. Look at this website Trevor Jones is very very good, the ex farrier I was talking about KC La Pierre trained him and also trained my trimmer http://www.equinepodiatry.co.uk/ he has some interesting articles on the site. There are other information sites too http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/ is a good discussion site, might give you a feel for things.

 

[Andalucian]

I just don't think he's going to be a very easy transition to barefoot, there are a lot of issues I can see in the photos, diet should be addressed whilst he's in shoes to make it easier for him when and if you do decide to try barefoot. Without meeting him, you and assessing the environment you have for him, it's impossible to say how long it will take for him to adjust and be able to work under saddle post shoe removal, but it won't be anything like a couple of weeks.

 

[Michen]

I just don't think he's going to be a very easy transition to barefoot, there are a lot of issues I can see in the photos, diet should be addressed whilst he's in shoes to make it easier for him when and if you do decide to try barefoot. Without meeting him, you and assessing the environment you have for him, it's impossible to say how long it will take for him to adjust and be able to work under saddle post shoe removal, but it won't be anything like a couple of weeks.

He's already fed a low starch and low sugar (mostly- but will be addressing the bit that's slightly out for sure) diet Would you care to expand on what issues you see in the photos? I'd like to do as much reading one everything as I can so I can understand the conversation I'm going to be having with my farrier

 

[FfionWinnie]

Another way to look at it is he is doing the least amount of work he's ever going to be doing (hopefully!) now. To me that's the time to do a BF transition. With my last horse she had terrible feet and was shod. I kept her shod thinking I would take them off over the winter (unfortunately she died of grass sickness before the winter). My new mare, I knew I would mainly be working in the school so the transition could be done gently and gradually and I got the shoes off four days after she arrived. By summer when I want to be doing loads of hacking, I'm hoping we will be ready for it. If not, I will get boots. (She is a cob and its going remarkably well, I know it will be more complex with a TB!)

 

[BethH]

I also agree with Andalucian, it's not a quick surefire solution, it does take time and patience, you should investigate your options before you rush in and also get the diet sorted for a while before the shoes come off.

 

[ktj1891]

He is so similiar to my ex-racer! If you want to look through my old posts they are very like yours lol! If you would like any of my experiences etc what I have done with my guy please feel free to message me. I was in exactly same boat as you, knew nothing about barefoot, diet etc etc and I learn't a lot along the way. He looks very sweet, what trainer did you get him from?

 

[Michen]

He is so similiar to my ex-racer! If you want to look through my old posts they are very like yours lol! If you would like any of my experiences etc what I have done with my guy please feel free to message me. I was in exactly same boat as you, knew nothing about barefoot, diet etc etc and I learn't a lot along the way. He looks very sweet, what trainer did you get him from?

Thanks, I will do- I saw one of your posts and noticed your sig, was planning on dropping you a PM anyway! He came from Roger Ingram, was at Brett Johnsons before that.

 

[Michen]

UPDATE everyone, thanks for all your help. Although he's now a lot better and pretty sound, I've just booked him in for a consult with a barefoot trimmer. Not necessarily definitely going to do it, but I'd like to hear what he has to say and it's definitely something worth looking in to.

 

[BethH]

Great - that way you can make an informed decision without being panicked in to it. Make sure you ask about the drawbacks as well as the benefits, If you want to pm me about anything please do, as I hit a few problems along the way myself so am neither anti shoes or blindly barefoot, I just got forced in to a corner as my horse was seriously struggling and the yard I am on has some very well informed barefooters. My horse did teach me quite a bit about the drawbacks though after spending 10years in shoes, however he is so much happier in his body!!

 

[Michen]

Great - that way you can make an informed decision without being panicked in to it. Make sure you ask about the drawbacks as well as the benefits, If you want to pm me about anything please do, as I hit a few problems along the way myself so am neither anti shoes or blindly barefoot, I just got forced in to a corner as my horse was seriously struggling and the yard I am on has some very well informed barefooters. My horse did teach me quite a bit about the drawbacks though after spending 10years in shoes, however he is so much happier in his body!!

Thanks very much Beth. From what I'm reading, I think he's going to need a long time with the correct diet before I can think about pulling his shoes. Am thinking that this side of summer may be too soon, and that perhaps whilst the ground is hard isn't great either. Going to see what the barefoot trimmer says but I'm wondering if its something I should be investigating in the autumn, when the ground is soft and he's had a good 10 months out of racing with correct diet. Not sure, just musing about it.

Did you use boots? Were they as good as shoes in the sense of roadwork/hacking. Aka can you take shoes off and be able to use boots straight away?

 

[ester]

I think if you can keep him comfy through a barefoot transition it is the thing most likely to improve his feet. I think those heels will struggle to improve in shoes (so some time out of shoes and then if needed for the workload shoeing again/for part of the season might work). I would defnitely have a consult and a chat - I did too before my lads shoes came off. I suspect Andalucian is right in that he isn't going to be the easiest to transition and will likely need boots too but hopefully trimmer can advise, mine had a helpful fit kit .

I did use boots - easyboot gloves, used when straight out of shoes and better than shoes for hacking - I am still on the same pair though only used occasionally and they are nearly 3 years old now! - better grip on roads than shoes, (like bare) never lost one and have made them work quite hard! There are loads of boots out there now and some are designed for more padding that others (gloves don't really take pads) and some need to be a closer fit than others (gloves again!) while some are more forgiving - other easyboots/cavallo simples etc especially as I am quite unusual in that Frank's feet are much the same shape.
Pinesofrome on here had a horse who was particularly sore to start with and I think started to be helped by lucypriory on here. He definitely turned out in cavllos to start with until he became more comfortable.