My horses last chance, barefoot peeps please

Nothing more to add to all the good advice except wishing you and your boy well, its good to see someone wanting to help their horse :) Make sure you keep us updated.

I have a friend who is in exactly the same position, horse crippled without shoes, even on smooth tarmac ( he has laminitis ) that just isn't right! Unfortunately she will not listen to me and her rather arrogant farrier puts heartbars on so she can go out on a three hour hack with lots of trotting on the roads :(

Rant over, sorry for the hijack!
 
Can't really add anything to the advice above, but just wanted to wish you luck!

Both of ours are barefoot, one a total doddle and the other is really high maintenance. On a livery it can be tricky as when one of ours is having a bad day they utterly don't get why we don't put shoes on - in shoes she was lame over everything, at least barefoot she is very happily sound over 'easy' surfaces and can be booted for the rest!

Diet is key, then movement and last of all trim. A trim really is the least important part of it all, though I can understand that people like the support a trimmer can offer. If diet and movement aren't in place then a trim won't bring a horse sound.

Boots are a good idea if you think he might struggle. Thesaddleryshop are ace and have loads of advice and also sizing charts. Our faves are the easyboot gloves, but it just comes down to what shape will fit your horse the best. We also have a set of hoof wraps for infront for spring days getting her too and from the yard as the shingle/tarmac there is difficult for her. She is as grass free as we can get, but peak growing periods still trouble her.

Would it be possible for you to get some pea gravel down? Really wonderful stuff for poorly feet, comfy to stand on and supportive as well as gently abrasive to help your horse remove what he doesn't need from his feet.

Loads of luck, do pop in to pheonix horse too, an absolute wealth of experience and lots of friendly nerds too lol!
 
Around 30 to 60 gms which is up to 2ozs of salt. It seems a lot, up to 4 tbsps (by my kitchen measure spoon). Tbh I cant find a weight of horse exact amount I'm afraid. :o Needs vary according to lots of factors. Working up to I-2 tablespoons to start with I think will do. :)

Salt is a subject on it's own but have a look when you get sorted at Phoenix diet page for more interesting info. You don't need that info now, you've enough to get your head around.
 
thatsmygirl said:
This is why I need to use somebody different for my lad, last time the shoes were pulled, soles pared and frogs trimmed right up.
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sorry I haven't followed your earlier posts when you went BF before but that could be part of your answer.
Your trimmer may even decide not to trim your horse, they may just do a couple of rasp stokes or a full trim depending of what is required. They are not paid by the rasp stroke and their advice on minimal or almost no trimming is just as important as trimming.

http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/about387.html
this thread provides a lot of views on salt. I feed 50g per day which is 2 good tablespoons, but of course work up to whatever you decide on gradually.

I know it seems a minefield at the moment. You will probably be thinking people are crazy going on about the problems of grass. Horses eat grass, don't they!!!!
Apparently not. It seems to be causing massive problems for many from one end of the country to the other and for many different types of horses. Some can tolerate more than others and some just about none at all certainly at this time of the year.

Have a look at some of the current threads on phoenix and you will see that grass sensitivity is a major problem at the moment. It is far more obvious in unshod horses but it must also be affecting shod feet as well. You could try experimenting even now with less grass, more hay, perhaps working out how you can restrict grass but keep movement. Some of us have put tracks around our fields to do this. (just electric fence stakes and wire, nothing fancy :) ) It has helped ours a lot.
 
I think one off the big problems I had was the farrier teling me the sole callouses/toe callouse ( spelling) had to come off as that was why the horse was pottery. He was weight bearing on those and bruising his sole. I don't know enough to question that but knew the soles/frogs should be left really.
He said the hoof wall was worn away and all the weight was on the soles hence why he was lame
 
thatsmygirl said:
I think one off the big problems I had was the farrier teling me the sole callouses/toe callouse ( spelling) had to come off as that was why the horse was pottery. He was weight bearing on those and bruising his sole. I don't know enough to question that but knew the soles/frogs should be left really.
He said the hoof wall was worn away and all the weight was on the soles hence why he was lame
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I would think you are right. The thing is, yes the wall should bear weight (along with sole on the hoof being loaded) but if the sole is thin anyway paring it to below wall level wont help, it will just make the sole thinner and him sorer. The frog should also be left to form a thick callous as well unless diseased.

Think about us walking barefoot. We need our soles to toughen up first before we can walk barefoot comfortably. It is similar for the horse the calloused sole and frog are protection.

Also, sole grows at a slower rate than wall and frog so it takes longer to thicken.
 
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I wouldnt be letting a farrier who thought that sole callouses were causing a horse to be footy near my horse. Get a decent trimmer ASAP and do it properly!
 
thatsmygirl said:
I think one off the big problems I had was the farrier teling me the sole callouses/toe callouse ( spelling) had to come off as that was why the horse was pottery. He was weight bearing on those and bruising his sole. I don't know enough to question that but knew the soles/frogs should be left really.
He said the hoof wall was worn away and all the weight was on the soles hence why he was lame
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You're instinct was right, should def be left alone. Some horses even grow a plate at the front of the sole or a ledge right around the frog or within the wall to support a weak sole. All of it should be left alone, the horse knows what it needs and will shed these if and when their work is done. I don't know of any reason for the sole to be trimmed (and I would include bars in that - long overlaid bars ime are there because of a weak hoof, and should be left not trimmed. When the hoof is stronger you will find the bars sort themselves out too so that they look more 'normal') and the frog should only be trimmed if there are large flaps that are harbouring thrush. If it is for 'prettyness' then hands off, anything taken from the hoof wall, sole, or frog should only be to improve it's function taking into account what the horse is trying to do. Trying to enforce human ideals of appearance will not result in a functional hoof.

We now have no trimmer or farrier (though actually our farrier was good and understanding) as there is no one locally I would trust to trim and our farrier did what I asked, which was fab, but it was so v v little (a breath off the bottom of the wall in dry weather to put on a baby roll) that I thought no reason we can't just get on with it ourselves, without worrys of 'tidying up' as soon as I turn away lol!!

I think sometimes a trimmer is more help in terms of moral support on the ground rather than because the horse actually needs trimming. I think we put too much faith in the healing and working advantages of a trim.
 
thatsmygirl said:
Well could be!!
Following my last thread which didn't get a lot off interest I'm seeking help and advise.
Shoes are crippling my horse to put it blint, vet is coming on mon and I want x rays carried out. Everytime he is shod he is so sore he can't walk, currently on box rest and bute after shoeing wed.
His feet are flat, under run and horrid in every way but what's above them is sweet, loving and so kind so iv promised to give him new feet. He's a ex racer 9 yr old firm ground runner.
I tried to go barefoot before which just didn't work for some reason and went so so sore but for his sake I have to try again so I'm after good advise and answers to my questions below. Rockley is out the question due to price but if this don't work it could well be the end.
Current diet
baileys topline cubes ( need to swap as cereal based,) what can I replace them with that will do the same job? He does need weight gaining feed.
Hi fi molasses free ( just noticed it has alfa ain it ) anything else I could use?
Equimins advancecomplete
micro linseed
mag oz
yea sacc ( dobson and horrell) are they all cereal based?
Cani still feed yea sacc with the equmins?
Any advise please please post I really need to grow a new pair off feet for my lad and really don't want to go down the bar route as I don't feel it will work.
I don't care if I can't ride for a year or whatever, I get just as much joy just being with him so please any input will be great. Thanks
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I seem to remember saying all this stuff to you a few months ago...but I'll go again :p

Firstly DO NOT feed your horse any 'weight gain' feed.

I want you to treat him as a laminitic for now (at least until you've had X-rays). Which means that rather than placing your faith in cereals to gain weight, you place your faith in fibre.

No molasses, no alfalfa (for now).

Fast Fibre is safe to feed.
Unmolassed beet is safe to feed.
Unmolassed hay chaff is safe to feed (but needs to be given in addition to one or both of the above for weight gain).

Fibre is 50% of the calorie yield for a horse. Cereals will simply create glucose for energy but also cause acidic gut and mess with the pH. It's not an efficient system, especially for a horse at rest (I assume the lamesness means he is not working).

To the diet you need to add a mineral balancer to help the hoof lay down enough good quality tissue and or the body to metabolise properly.
Pro Hoof
Pro Balance +
Equimins META Balance
ForagePlus Balancer

Pick one of the above. They all have mag ox already (I know Pro Hoof has Yea-sacc added as well as glutamine and amino acids for muscle building).

Linseed is good.

If you feel you need any further weight after a while and don't want to up the fibre ration, then soya is safe to feed.

I repeat - I want you to treat him as a laminitic for now. Don't be shocked if you find a low coffin bone on the x-ray, or even some rotation. It can happen without us knowing and it can be a chronic issue until we discover it and then suddenly panic.

Comfortable surfaces only for now. He probably has nothing but a wing and a prayer between his coffin bone and the ground. He needs protetion until he's had chance to build some padding on his soles.

You NEED to pick up some boots and pads. I would consider using them even for turnout for the first few weeks (if you do, buy some athletes foot powder for them). Cavellos are a good beginner's boots but beware of rubbing for long periods. Easyboot have an excellent range too.

If you have anyone to use casts/wraps, that would be even better.

At the very extreme - glue on boots for a cycle.

When the shoes come off it would be a good idea to suggest the farrier sgive a light rasp to the wall only and then leave the horse alone for the first cycle. The hooves may look shocking but to remove any tissue may be counter productive.

Let the horse be in charge of the rehab - less intervention is usually better.

And then just boots, pads and movement (within his comfort).

It is perfectly possible to rehabilitate even the worst cases. Just let the horse be in charge of his hooves from now on. We just need to try and help him along.
 
TPO said:
It sounds like you're on the right track having already bought Feet First. I couldn't put it down when I got it either and it's been lent out so many time to others until they realise they can't live without it and have to buy their own copy! I found Feet First lacking in hoof boot info; I know they have their reasons for this and it is discussed on their blog. It did lead me to buy The Barefoot Horse, which is the other side of the coin, and I found this helped balance things out. http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Barefoo...9874/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1339313747&sr=8-1 It might be worth a read as it sounds like hoof boots and pads will be required once the shoes come off.
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I picked up this book last week.

I think it is a great introduction for newbies and would recommend it.
 
VET UPDATE
the vet can't this afternoon and after nerve blocks which he was totally sound when they were carried out he's going in for x rays on thurs morning.
I want To say I'm very impressed with my vet, I stressed that I wasn't happy to go down the bar route and she agreed that it wasn't going to help to much and after a long talk she's backing me totally with the barefoot route and has used a trimmer with one off her own horses and was fully behind me. That I feel is a huge deal that I have my vets backing. I spoke to the farrier who was also out today and he's also fully behind me with the barefoot route even though I will be getting a trimmer. So the next step is all ready for thurs to see how bad the x rays are and she wants to also check where his pedal bone is as well as x ray his navicular bone.
I really want to thank everybody who has posted and helped me here you have all been great and I'm sure I'm going to be after a lot more help along our journey but hopefully at the end off it my lad will have his new hoofs that I have promised him. It's my biggest challenge so far and I need it to work.
Will keep you all updated as time goes on. Xx
 
That's a great result! You are very lucky to have such professionals around you. Having their backing will help you immensely especially emotionally which I believe is a huge factor. Best of luck. x
 
That's good news having all you professionals behind you from the start! My vet and Farrier are still a bit anti about my barefoot choices for my horse and it does make it harder so I'm glad you have them on side. The folks on here are great for help and advice so stick with it and I'm sure your horse will have nice new hooves to do all the things he needs them to. :)
 
bikerchickone said:
That's good news having all you professionals behind you from the start! My vet and Farrier are still a bit anti about my barefoot choices for my horse and it does make it harder so I'm glad you have them on side )
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You are a star bikerchickone, it is so difficult to be the one to put your finger in the dyke!!!
Just going barefoot does not mean that all will be easy, but be aware it will all workout for the best in the long run.
 
Brilliant news that they are supportive, it helps alot just to know someone thinks you are doing the right thing!

We are still the weirdos on the yard and it can be rather draining, esp if you are having a dip. Thank goodness for all the other barefoot nutters on here and phoenix horse.

People are always around if you have a wibble, so never feel alone and worried. Many people will have had a heart attack at every tiny change, only with hind sight can you see that the feet are amazingly tough. I scared myself silly at the start lol!!
 
At the risk of being controversial, I have 6 horses/ponies, all barefoot, most have never been shod . I have no special diets, no special additives and never used boots, pads or any other gadgets. They range from shetlands , through various natives to an elderly Arab who used to be shod until about 6 years ago. Three of the horses are ridden regularly, including road work, and 2 of the shetlands are driven or worked regularly.

None of these animals are ever foot sore, lame, or even slightly footy. They get trimmed when they need it, in fact farrier came today and did those that needed a tidy. Interestingly the only one that had ever been shod , the Arab, he said didnt need a trim or even a rasp. Last time she was done...........5 years ago!!!!

Maybe I am just lucky, but with 6 of them, seems unlikely
 
Have you tried a product called Keratex? Amazing stuff totally cured my foot sore boy by hardening the hooves so he couldn't feel any pain. Then slow but steady bare foot work got his feet back into a decent condition and now he has a 6 week trim :) I get it from my local saddlery is about £25 but brill and lasts ages, you use it every day for a week then twice a week all the time.
 
mulberrymill said:
At the risk of being controversial, I have 6 horses/ponies, all barefoot, most have never been shod . I have no special diets, no special additives and never used boots, pads or any other gadgets. They range from shetlands , through various natives to an elderly Arab who used to be shod until about 6 years ago. Three of the horses are ridden regularly, including road work, and 2 of the shetlands are driven or worked regularly.

None of these animals are ever foot sore, lame, or even slightly footy. They get trimmed when they need it, in fact farrier came today and did those that needed a tidy. Interestingly the only one that had ever been shod , the Arab, he said didnt need a trim or even a rasp. Last time she was done...........5 years ago!!!!

Maybe I am just lucky, but with 6 of them, seems unlikely
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Most of the problems occur with the transition from being shod to barefoot, and the fact that they are being overfed starch and sugars for the level of work they are doing.

They do say that they grow the foot they need, yours have obviously got themselves sorted with regard to what they eat and what you do with them.
 
I am preparing for a second go at getting my mare barefoot,trimmer booked for 5weeks time to get the shoes off. Last time the farrier removed the shoes, trimmed sole,frog etc and she was so sore she couldn't move.

My other horse is already barefoot

The barefoot diet is in place (thank you whoever mentioned the copra as my gelding was refusing to eat his minerals and with the addition of a handful of copra cleared the bucket tonight!), grass restricted and I am trying to get some weight off her (she is not getting copra!).

Trimmer looked at her when she came a week ago and said to leave her shoes on a bit longer to get some height to her feet before they come off. I have boots and solemate pads ready for when the shoes come off.

Good luck with your barefoot journey,there is an awful lot to learn :)
 
**Star** said:
Have you tried a product called Keratex? Amazing stuff totally cured my foot sore boy by hardening the hooves so he couldn't feel any pain. Then slow but steady bare foot work got his feet back into a decent condition and now he has a 6 week trim :) I get it from my local saddlery is about £25 but brill and lasts ages, you use it every day for a week then twice a week all the time.
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The principle active ingredient in Keratex hoof hardener is formaldehyde at 8%

Formaldehyde is a very powerful chemical that many people think should not be put onto hooves, though I know you are far from alone in getting a good result from it. It's the stuff they pickle body parts in to preserve them.

You could save most of your £25 quid. For a couple of quid you could buy a litre of 35% formaldehyde which is used by farmers to dip sheep feet. If you use 3 of water to 1 of sheep dip, you will get 4 whole litres of 8.75% formaldehyde for a fraction of the price that you are paying for a 500ml bottle.
 
i think i posted on your last thread, been racking my brain for what i fed my mare it was formula foe feet and slapped on cornucrescine so she got help.from the inside and the outside. the cornucresine is fab, that and good grass made a huge diffeeence over one summee. also dengie healthy hooves....really good stuff :-) good luck
 
Just a note about vets, not to be ultra critical , but when one of the local Professors of Vet Science writes in a free mag that there is no need to soak molassed SB nuts [contrary to manufacturers recommendation and every pony club person], I just thought... "for heavens sake". Do they teach nutrition for horses out of a book, a very old book!

After my boy had been very ill [strangles] he was not quite right so I fed him D&H Mare &Youngstock, as he had been getting all through his illness, I spoke to vet about him [I was concerned about the effects of long term antibiotics in his gutteral pouches], she said, "......oh just leave him and see how it goes!!!"... "out at grass during day, does not need anything"
I have always fed him his vitamins and minerals in winter and when getting worked, but now he is barefoot, and I am more educated, he gets 50gms linseed, Fast Fibre and extra minerals and salt to back up his grass diet. It does not fatten him, may take the edge of his appetite if fed before going back out. His coat is darker and skin less itchy, feet are great, and he is rock-crunching, a year or so ago he was pretty sore on gravel.
 
mulberrymill said:
Maybe I am just lucky, but with 6 of them, seems unlikely
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Not lucky with the horses as you say with 6 that would be too much of a coincidence but maybe with your environment.

As I said earlier my horse was at Rockley and alot of us have found when we got our horses back that the high moorland grass is more conducive to good feet that the rich ex agricultural land alot of us have to deal with at home.

Maybe your pasture has a good overall profile in terms of minerals and species.
 
I have not read the whole thread but if it's not be mentained get a copy of feet first Nic Barkers book to help you understand the process .
I think you need a trimmer on board I found mine my asking around and people on here will help.
You need a diagnosis from the vet so it properly understood whats causing the pain.
And you will need to be prepared to walk in hand every day to get him moving on different surfaces .
The trimmer is the best person to tell you which boots will suit your horse best you may need to change sizes as his feet change so buying second hand fron eBay is worth considering.
I was discussing the subject with my vet this weekend and she thinks that inthe early stages using moderate or low doses of anti inflammatorys to get the horse moving can be a good idea .
From my experiance you will have to restrict grass during the day in spring and summer and do feed magnesium plus a good hoof supplement .
Good luck with it I have three without shoes at the moment the first one started last autumn and we are still seeing changes in his feet and he was sound and showed no pain at the start so you may be investing a year in this.
 
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