My little ex racer now rides like a giant warmblood...gastric ulcer related!

maxine1985

maxine1985

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Sorry abit long but update from me, last did ALW one day over a month ago, since then stupid weather has seen my next events cancelled or me balloted out!! Fingers crossed for Keysoe UA in a few weeks.

So decided as i had registered BD i would go and do a few prelims, well as his only ever dressage test was in a muddy field at ALW where he scored 37 i wasnt expected too much in a big scary indoor at Moulton College! He did however warm up really nicely and performed 2 non spooky great tests to score 63% and 66% so was super pleased with him. However comments were he could work more across back, ALW comments also mentioned tense in back!
Warming up at Moulton!
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So had his back checked by usual back lady and he was sore in lumber region, few days off and seemed fine, he did however seem to get sore again after being worked for a few days so had vet out to check him, to see if anything else was contributing to back pain, nothing showed up, he is 100% sound, all flexions fine. I however have had it in the back of my mind for a while, particularly from reading posts on here that he may have gastric ulcers; ex racer, he constantly chews lead rope when led or tied up, wood chews and box and field walks when stressed so suggested it to my vet, luckily for me although vet was sceptical (he is in fantastic condition, lives out 24/7, fed winergy, no colic or any other real typical symptoms) he referred me to a free scoping session run by Merial (makers of Gastrogard)

Took him along after 16 hours of starving and had him scoped!! Well i couldnt believe it!! He has grade 4 ulcers in the upper part of his stomach including some bleeding ones, poor boy! Hes on a tube of gastrogard for the next month then re scoping and going from there!

Been on gastrogard for 5 days now and he is a different horse, no chewing, stopped field walking and his paces have improved amazingly, also back has stayed really soft no tensing or soreness!! I never thought he had a particularly bad walk or trot, but wow he feels like his legs have grown 6 inches and i'm riding a 17.2 not a little 16hh horse. His stride length has increased a huge amount, he must have been so sore!!

Cant wait to see how he goes at his next competition now, he is now one happy horse!! I can certainly say i'm glad i trusted my instinct!!
 
What a smart little horse:)

Poor boy though. Its incredible how resilient they are too pain, if you think how sore one mouth ulcer is in us it must be excruciating for the horse.

I also had my boy scoped on Monday (again a free session with Medial) and he had grade 3 ulcers, which looked very sore especially those in the lower half of the stomach.

Again he had no symptons such as stress, losing condition etc but he was and has always been very girthy and bites me when I brush that area but he did turn very agressive last week, which apparently is quite common.

Hopefully they will both continue to flourish and I can't wait til tomorrow when I can school and see if my boy has grown in stature too - I hope not as he is already 17hh !!:):)
 
He looks very smart and it is certainly interesting how the ulcers were affecting his paces and creating tension through his back.

Certainly something to think about in the future if people are having these type of problems and seem to have exhausted all avenues.

Glad to hear he seems to have improved (especially so dramatically!!). Fingers crossed for next scoping
 
Per chance for me as I had booked him in anway and the vets rang to say they had this free scoping day and they had had a cancellation - so lucky me.

However, on reflection I'm sure I saw an advert for the free scoping in the local paper a few weeks prior.
 
zoon said:
How did you find out about the free scoping?
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Was referred by my vet, i was trying to decide whether to pay out for scoping, wasnt 100% sure he would have them and vet didnt think so either so vet said to let him know what i decide (had half decided i'd leave it a few months and do it when ground went hard and i had some spare cash from not competing) He called me next day to let me know about free scoping that was being held at a local clinic and i jumped at the chance! So glad i did, would've felt awful if i waited another few months till i had the spare money!
 
They were doing free scoping at my vets too so might be worth calling your vets.

Glad your horse is feeling better. I was trying to decide if I should have one of mine done and the vet said she didn't think it was worth it. I'd of taken her on the free day but I'm busy on the day

:(
 
I took mine in for the free scoping and she also has Grade 4 bleeding ulcers. The only symptom she'd shown was weight loss and reluctance to eat, although she is only 2 so possibly more difficult to diagnose.
Fingers crossed all make a good recovery!
Does make you wonder what % of horses out there have ulcers that are attributed to other things.
 
pedilia said:
Does make you wonder what % of horses out there have ulcers that are attributed to other things.
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Or how many horses have ulcers because they have something else going on . . .;)

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :)

I think the common feeling for some time is that somewhere upwards of 80% of "competition" horses (meaning horses living/managed that way, not necessarily competing at a high level) have ulcers at some point in their life.

I am genuinely curious though, since ulcers are undoubtedly a sign of stress, why the assumption seems to be that management is the only factor in play. I've seen a number of horses under stress for other reasons develop them . . .I wonder if they are sometimes more a symptom, or even a red herring, than the only underlying issue.

Whatever the underlying situation, though, treating and then managing for ulcers will undoubtedly make the horse more comfortable and produce improvement in way of going etc. I'm merely musing on how much thought is put into what a particular horse, especially one that doesn't seem "typical" is getting them in the first place.

Of course, the other possible conclusion is that the majority of performance horses at all levels do have ulcers, which may or may not be affecting the horse in obvious ways. That's quite a depressing thought!
 
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TarrSteps said:
Or how many horses have ulcers because they have something else going on . . .;)

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :)

I think the common feeling for some time is that somewhere upwards of 80% of "competition" horses (meaning horses living/managed that way, not necessarily competing at a high level) have ulcers at some point in their life.

I am genuinely curious though, since ulcers are undoubtedly a sign of stress, why the assumption seems to be that management is the only factor in play. I've seen a number of horses under stress for other reasons develop them . . .I wonder if they are sometimes more a symptom, or even a red herring, than the only underlying issue.

Whatever the underlying situation, though, treating and then managing for ulcers will undoubtedly make the horse more comfortable and produce improvement in way of going etc. I'm merely musing on how much thought is put into what a particular horse, especially one that doesn't seem "typical" is getting them in the first place.

Of course, the other possible conclusion is that the majority of performance horses at all levels do have ulcers, which may or may not be affecting the horse in obvious ways. That's quite a depressing thought!
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Pain can also cause ulcers - is this correct?

Do "stressy" horses get stressed because they have ulcers, or do stressy horses get ulcers because they're stressed?

Can horses heal themselves when they have ulcers? For example if a horse is moved to a new yard, gets stressed and an ulcer develops, once it settles does the ulcer heal if you then don't notice any symptoms once it's settled or will it continue to cause underlying problems that aren't noticable until it gets really bad?

Also, something that i ponder quite a lot. There must be a link between horses who have a good diet but have crap feet...could this be attributed to long term ulcers and the inability to process nutrients/minerals effectively?

Just my ponderings, i'm no expert by a long shot but i do look at other peoples horses feet and temperaments a lot. I also worry way too much about what could be wrong with my girl. I'm a hypochondriac on behalf of my horse. I'm not normal :D
 
What we have here is a classic "Urban Myth". "Everyone knows" that stress causes ulcers. Actualy most stomach ulcers in humans are caused by a bacterial infection and are now treated with an antibiotic. The problem has been that for generations, the cause of stomach ulcers in humans was believed to be the production of too much stomach acid brought on by stress. We have transfered this explanation to horses bypassing the inconvenient fact that it was (for the majority of cases) never true.
 
Mike007 said:
What we have here is a classic "Urban Myth". "Everyone knows" that stress causes ulcers. Actualy most stomach ulcers in humans are caused by a bacterial infection and are now treated with an antibiotic. The problem has been that for generations, the cause of stomach ulcers in humans was believed to be the production of too much stomach acid brought on by stress. We have transfered this explanation to horses bypassing the inconvenient fact that it was (for the majority of cases) never true.
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Some gastric ulcers in horses are caused by bacterial infection - my horse was treated with antibiotics for example.

However, you are making a fundamental mistake by assuming you can equate horses and humans so directly like that! Firstly, horses have acid in their stomach at all times, and are designed to do so, humans do and are not.

Secondly, horses get two types of stomach ulcers, splash ulcers, which occur at the top of the stomach where no acid is designed to go and which has no mucosal protection, and glandular ulcers, which occur in the base of the stomach in the area designed to be protected by mucus.

Splash ulcers are caused by the acid splashing up onto the top of the stomach wall during exercise - one of the major reasons this is an issue these days is they type of grass we keep horses on. A great number of horses are now on improved ex-dairy pasture, which is predominantly rye-grass. Rye grass is mainly leaf and not a lot of stalk, which is great for milk production, but not ideal for horses. This is because horses are designed to have a layering system in their stomachs, which the leafy part of the grass at the bottom, and the stalks at the top. The stalks then act as a buffer to stop the acid splashing onto the walls. If no stalks are there, you just get a wet grass soup in the stomach with none of the protection. The splashing occurs because of the action of the abdominal muscles and the inflation of the lungs during exercise moving the internal organs and contracting the stomach. If you have the stalky elements in there, then the stomach is more effectively protected. It's the main reason behind recommending the feeding of high fibre diets and giving them hay/chaff half an hour before exercise.

The glandular ulcers are the ones which are caused when there is an issue with the mucosal part of the stomach - can be caused by bacterial infection meaning the protective layer doesn't do its job properly. The problem is the bacteria are almost impossible to isolate and so they have had to extrapolate from humans.

So it's all a lot more complex than stress/pain/bacterial infection etc.

And who's to say stress doesn't make one more susceptible to the bacterial infection?!
 
SpottedCat said:
Some gastric ulcers in horses are caused by bacterial infection - my horse was treated with antibiotics for example.

However, you are making a fundamental mistake by assuming you can equate horses and humans so directly like that! Firstly, horses have acid in their stomach at all times, and are designed to do so, humans do and are not.

Secondly, horses get two types of stomach ulcers, splash ulcers, which occur at the top of the stomach where no acid is designed to go and which has no mucosal protection, and glandular ulcers, which occur in the base of the stomach in the area designed to be protected by mucus.

Splash ulcers are caused by the acid splashing up onto the top of the stomach wall during exercise - one of the major reasons this is an issue these days is they type of grass we keep horses on. A great number of horses are now on improved ex-dairy pasture, which is predominantly rye-grass. Rye grass is mainly leaf and not a lot of stalk, which is great for milk production, but not ideal for horses. This is because horses are designed to have a layering system in their stomachs, which the leafy part of the grass at the bottom, and the stalks at the top. The stalks then act as a buffer to stop the acid splashing onto the walls. If no stalks are there, you just get a wet grass soup in the stomach with none of the protection. The splashing occurs because of the action of the abdominal muscles and the inflation of the lungs during exercise moving the internal organs and contracting the stomach. If you have the stalky elements in there, then the stomach is more effectively protected. It's the main reason behind recommending the feeding of high fibre diets and giving them hay/chaff half an hour before exercise.

The glandular ulcers are the ones which are caused when there is an issue with the mucosal part of the stomach - can be caused by bacterial infection meaning the protective layer doesn't do its job properly. The problem is the bacteria are almost impossible to isolate and so they have had to extrapolate from humans.

So it's all a lot more complex than stress/pain/bacterial infection etc.

And who's to say stress doesn't make one more susceptible to the bacterial infection?!
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Had you read my post a little more carefully you would have realised that I was not equating horses and humans. In fact the exact opposite. My point was that the popular explanation is derived from a human Urban Myth.
 
Mike007 said:
Had you read my post a little more carefully you would have realised that I was not equating horses and humans. In fact the exact opposite. My point was that the popular explanation is derived from a human Urban Myth.
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I did read your post carefully, and it implied that because the cause in humans is mostly bacterial, the same must be true for horses - it isn't.
 
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SpottedCat said:
I did read your post carefully, and it implied that because the cause in humans is mostly bacterial, the same must be true for horses - it isn't.
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Then I suggest you read it again. At no point did I even suggest that the explanation for ulcers in horses was bacterial!
 
SpottedCat said:
Some gastric ulcers in horses are caused by bacterial infection - my horse was treated with antibiotics for example.

However, you are making a fundamental mistake by assuming you can equate horses and humans so directly like that! Firstly, horses have acid in their stomach at all times, and are designed to do so, humans do and are not.

Secondly, horses get two types of stomach ulcers, splash ulcers, which occur at the top of the stomach where no acid is designed to go and which has no mucosal protection, and glandular ulcers, which occur in the base of the stomach in the area designed to be protected by mucus.

Splash ulcers are caused by the acid splashing up onto the top of the stomach wall during exercise - one of the major reasons this is an issue these days is they type of grass we keep horses on. A great number of horses are now on improved ex-dairy pasture, which is predominantly rye-grass. Rye grass is mainly leaf and not a lot of stalk, which is great for milk production, but not ideal for horses. This is because horses are designed to have a layering system in their stomachs, which the leafy part of the grass at the bottom, and the stalks at the top. The stalks then act as a buffer to stop the acid splashing onto the walls. If no stalks are there, you just get a wet grass soup in the stomach with none of the protection. The splashing occurs because of the action of the abdominal muscles and the inflation of the lungs during exercise moving the internal organs and contracting the stomach. If you have the stalky elements in there, then the stomach is more effectively protected. It's the main reason behind recommending the feeding of high fibre diets and giving them hay/chaff half an hour before exercise.

The glandular ulcers are the ones which are caused when there is an issue with the mucosal part of the stomach - can be caused by bacterial infection meaning the protective layer doesn't do its job properly. The problem is the bacteria are almost impossible to isolate and so they have had to extrapolate from humans.

So it's all a lot more complex than stress/pain/bacterial infection etc.

And who's to say stress doesn't make one more susceptible to the bacterial infection?!
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I'm not disagreeing with you here at all (cos you obviously know far more than i do about this) but if this is the case, why do racers have such a high rate of ulcers because they rarely get turned out on grass?

Is it just a lack of a high fibre diet and grain would act as the grass does and make grain soup in the stomach?

So does stress and pain cause ulcers or is it purely diet based? :confused:
 
PooJay said:
I'm not disagreeing with you here at all (cos you obviously know far more than i do about this) but if this is the case, why do racers have such a high rate of ulcers because they rarely get turned out on grass?
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It's the lack of stalky fibre coupled with the type of exercise they do - they get low hay rations too, and are asked to gallop, which really causes the stomach to be squashed and so increases the likelihood of splash ulcers (did you see the Inside Giants programme on the racehorse - amazing!).

Is it just a lack of a high fibre diet and grain would act as the grass does and make grain soup in the stomach?
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Yes - nothing to buffer the ulcers, coupled with the fact they are designed to have fibre in their stomachs pretty much constantly - hence they produce acid all the time unlike humans who only produce it in response to stimuli (like, for example, saliva being produced - one of the reasons chewing gum isn't great for you!).

So does stress and pain cause ulcers or is it purely diet based? :confused:
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Answer that and you'll be a rich, rich person!!

It's a chicken and egg scenario - is it diet and management based - yes, sometimes. Is it bacterial infection - yes, sometimes. Does pain elsewhere mean they are more susceptible to bacterial infection - maybe. Does pain elsewhere mean more acid is produced so there is an issue with ulcers - possible too.

It's nowhere near as black and white as 'ulcers are caused by management/feeding regime' or 'ulcers are caused by stress' or 'ulcers are caused by bacterial infection' - it's much more complex and there could be a whole range of factors at play.

Add in the fact that some horses have ulcers and show no clinical signs at all - so my horse had splash and glandular ulcers. We cured the splash ones in a month using gastrogard, which did not touch the glandular ones. He showed absolutely no change in his performance, so the splash ones weren't the ones causing the issue - at least not on their own. Had to cure the glandular ones to see an improvement in performance. So you could have a horse with ulcers which is doing the tasks asked of it perfectly fine, no hint of a problem. Of course you might see a dramatic improvement if you did treat them....but you might never know to even look for them if the horse is doing all you ask!
 
SpottedCat said:
It's the lack of stalky fibre coupled with the type of exercise they do - they get low hay rations too, and are asked to gallop, which really causes the stomach to be squashed and so increases the likelihood of splash ulcers (did you see the Inside Giants programme on the racehorse - amazing!).

Yes - nothing to buffer the ulcers, coupled with the fact they are designed to have fibre in their stomachs pretty much constantly - hence they produce acid all the time unlike humans who only produce it in response to stimuli (like, for example, saliva being produced - one of the reasons chewing gum isn't great for you!).



Answer that and you'll be a rich, rich person!!

It's a chicken and egg scenario - is it diet and management based - yes, sometimes. Is it bacterial infection - yes, sometimes. Does pain elsewhere mean they are more susceptible to bacterial infection - maybe. Does pain elsewhere mean more acid is produced so there is an issue with ulcers - possible too.

It's nowhere near as black and white as 'ulcers are caused by management/feeding regime' or 'ulcers are caused by stress' or 'ulcers are caused by bacterial infection' - it's much more complex and there could be a whole range of factors at play.

Add in the fact that some horses have ulcers and show no clinical signs at all - so my horse had splash and glandular ulcers. We cured the splash ones in a month using gastrogard, which did not touch the glandular ones. He showed absolutely no change in his performance, so the splash ones weren't the ones causing the issue - at least not on their own. Had to cure the glandular ones to see an improvement in performance. So you could have a horse with ulcers which is doing the tasks asked of it perfectly fine, no hint of a problem. Of course you might see a dramatic improvement if you did treat them....but you might never know to even look for them if the horse is doing all you ask!
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I thought you may say that! lol

So, my mare doesn't have any so called symptoms of having any ulcers. Except that she is a bit of a stress monkey at times (doesn't like change and is a bit spooky - what w/b isn't tho!) she is a good doer, great feet and lovely to handle. However, she likes to chew wood (is never out 24/7 though and gets a good amount of hay every day) and is reluctant to work through her back on the left rein - this could be attributed to atrophy on her left side (she was all muscled up in completely the wrong way when i bought her - this is improving) and could be a muscular thing. But could this muscular thing be caused by ulcers and an inability to lift through the left because of ulcers?!?! :confused:

So, having no clinical symptoms, never really girthy, unless she's gassy - which she can be after grazing on wet grass usually - she is a very trumpy horse and i supplement her for said gassyness (eek, i'm talking myself into this) how would i suggest to a vet that i would like to get her scoped - not that i would want to for no reason because she doesn't travel well at all and doesn't cope well with sedation either!

Is it fair to say that if I suspected ulcers, that i could put her on a course of Coligone for 1 month and note any other changes in environment etc and if there is good improvement in her way of going that i should get her scoped and checked for ulcers?
 
Mine showed no symptoms except chipping in at fences and then stopping at SJs. You can get them scoped at home - no travel needed, had that done a lot of times. They cope well with it.

It's one of those things - I actually went for loss of performance work up with the vet and they scoped as the first thing they did.

Putting them on a supplement might help - but only if they actually respond to the supplement - absence of improvement isn't evidence of absence of ulcers! It's like using omaprezole (the active ingredient of gastrogard) - if they improve on it then great, you have an answer, if they don't, then that doesn't mean they don't have ulcers, it means they aren't responding to omaprezole for whatever reason (in my horse's case because his glandular ones were caused by bacterial infection).

You just need to talk to a vet about it.
 
SpottedCat said:
Mine showed no symptoms except chipping in at fences and then stopping at SJs. You can get them scoped at home - no travel needed, had that done a lot of times. They cope well with it.

It's one of those things - I actually went for loss of performance work up with the vet and they scoped as the first thing they did.

Putting them on a supplement might help - but only if they actually respond to the supplement - absence of improvement isn't evidence of absence of ulcers! It's like using omaprezole (the active ingredient of gastrogard) - if they improve on it then great, you have an answer, if they don't, then that doesn't mean they don't have ulcers, it means they aren't responding to omaprezole for whatever reason (in my horse's case because his glandular ones were caused by bacterial infection).

You just need to talk to a vet about it.
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Oh I didn't realise you could get them scoped at home. That's good! Insurance wise, i'm assuming that if they find them then they will treat and cough up but if they don't find them you're generally liable for the cost of the scoping?

Do you know how much it costs? (sorry to be a pain! Paranoid owner here :o ) i just like to rule EVERYTHING out!
 
Hmm, my horse is gassy, chews wood and his feed bucket etc, doesn't really like his girth being done up (but is polite about it), and is always a bit lazy.

I wouldn't say mine has a stressful lifestyle, and is out 24/7 in summer with day turnout all winter, so I wouldn't say he has a lack of fibre in his diet, would it be worth enquiring about a free scoping?
 
Stencilface said:
Hmm, my horse is gassy, chews wood and his feed bucket etc, doesn't really like his girth being done up (but is polite about it), and is always a bit lazy.

I wouldn't say mine has a stressful lifestyle, and is out 24/7 in summer with day turnout all winter, so I wouldn't say he has a lack of fibre in his diet, would it be worth enquiring about a free scoping?
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You can get free scoping?!?!? :confused:
 
In the grand scheme of things scoping isn't that expensive - about £150 last time I had it done (and my insurance xs is £135, so....).

Stencilface - mine lived out 24/7 on a fibre only diet.....I have advanced ulcer paranoia, so it's a chat to a vet thing not a 'what someone on a forum says' thing!!
 
SpottedCat said:
In the grand scheme of things scoping isn't that expensive - about £150 last time I had it done (and my insurance xs is £135, so....).

Stencilface - mine lived out 24/7 on a fibre only diet.....I have advanced ulcer paranoia, so it's a chat to a vet thing not a 'what someone on a forum says' thing!!
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Of course, just that my vet thinks I'm neurotic at the best of times, and I don't want to give him more cause for ridicule ;)

I just don't know anything about ulcers tbh, will be worth asking about I think, thanks :)

He chews anything he can get his teeth into, and although has a simple lifestyle, can be a stresshead, esp at comps etc (not that I've done any of those for a while now!) with constant neighing. :)
 
SpottedCat said:
In the grand scheme of things scoping isn't that expensive - about £150 last time I had it done (and my insurance xs is £135, so....).

Stencilface - mine lived out 24/7 on a fibre only diet.....I have advanced ulcer paranoia, so it's a chat to a vet thing not a 'what someone on a forum says' thing!!
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that's ne bad at all actually - especially for peace of mind. :) thank you for your help!

*tootles off to pester vet for no valid reason - AGAIN*
 
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