Archangel
Normal, 10 cats ago
I'm so glad he has been found.
My Missing Arab
- Thread starter timthearab
- Start date
spike123
Well-Known Member
Brilliant to hear you have found him. I hope you are to be reunited again soon!
timthearab
Well-Known Member
Going up to see my big boy tomorrow. Have mixed feelings about it as i cant wait to see, touch and smell him again. But it will leave me feeling so much more upset as i just want him home. Some people need fags and booze, i need my horse!!! A happy endng will hopefully be on the horizon soon enough XX thank you to everyone for all your support through this tough time. Ali & Katie you are .. FAB .. XXX supportive and very understanding, just what an hysterical owner with a missing horse needs... Lets just hope that we get the out come and proscecution that we all need.
Faro
...
So pleased that you have located him and that he is (apparently) okay. Fingers crossed that you get the outcome you want. Please keep us updated.
ISHmad
Well-Known Member
So hope for the ultimate happy ending here. Well done for never giving up on your horse, even when the odds seemed so incredibly stacked against you. You will give so much hope to others who are still searching. What an emotional day for you tomorrow, enjoy the moment.
MHOL
Well-Known Member
Lisa, Thinking of you tomorrow, Ali is hoping to talk to the police before you go, big hug and well done for seeing this through.
timthearab
Well-Known Member
Well what can i say..... I know, why do we have Police!!!! Have been informed that Louise Coombs of Rotherham has admitted stealing & selling and has been CAUTIONED!!!!! And apparently a conclusion has been reach by the Police. Yet here i am with absolutley nothing!!!! My Tim is still in Kilmarnock. How does that work then, i just dont understand. Just watch this space. I SHALL NOT give up.. I have been told to do civil action, even though i am in this situation due to criminal offences it is still a civil matter. Will keep you all posted.
Cuffey
Well-Known Member
So sorry
I was hoping for good news
If you need help you know where to find me.
I was hoping for good news
If you need help you know where to find me.
ISHmad
Well-Known Member
Oh no I'm so sorry to hear this. If there is ANY justice in this world Tim will be home again.
spike123
Well-Known Member
Oh no this is not the outcome you would expect.I really hope you manage to get Tim home again soon.He is your horse and that has been proved by this woman admitting loaning him from you and selling him on.She has broken the law and a caution is something that will remain on record so please keep going and don't give up on Tim. Have you tried going to the press and seeing if any one can help make this more public. It may help you get him back again if the police are under pressure from the public.
timthearab
Well-Known Member
I have been in contact with my local MP and he has rattled a few cages (hopefully) Fingers crossed. Will go public shortly if we get nothing back from that. Then we will see what will happen when big pressure is applied. Its heart breaking to loose my Tim, but to find him and prove beyond reasonable doubt that i am his owner to be told i cant have him is like loosing him all over again. I wont give up!! that is for sure.
Cuffey
Well-Known Member
Fingers and toes crossed for some progress soon
dingle12
Well-Known Member
Ive just seen this post i really hope you get things sorted. Did you go see him? is he well? i hope his new owners are helping you out.
timthearab
Well-Known Member
Yes i did go and see him, he is looking ok. People that have him at moment are making a difficult situation even worse for me. Not very obliging!!!
timthearab
Well-Known Member
Still without my horse. Police have said nothing else they can do, i have to sort it out myself. Civil court, court order etc etc etc. Have recently found out from local people in scotland that Tim was purchased by a horse dealer!!! Im not giving up not until Tim is home
jhoward
Demon exorcist...
id be a bit more forceful with the police, as basically its theft,. i would of thought it followed the same rules as cars..
car stolen
new owner
police find car and return to original owner..
may be worth finding out abit more about that side of the law. ??
car stolen
new owner
police find car and return to original owner..
may be worth finding out abit more about that side of the law. ??
somethingorother
Well-Known Member
I remember seeing this when you first posted about him... so sorry he's still not back with you, but at least you know he is safe and well. I don't understand how they have not returned your 'property' to you, lazy police!
Have you got solicitors involved now i take it?
Keep us updated x
Have you got solicitors involved now i take it?
Keep us updated x
Megan_T
Well-Known Member
Just read through this whole post for the first time - I do hope that you get some good news very soon. Keep us updated
Good vibes coming your way xx
Good vibes coming your way xx
lhotse
Well-Known Member
Personally, if he was mine, I would be going up with a horsebox and his papers and a couple of heavies and he would be coming back home. The police have cautioned the person who you loaned him to for theft, therefore, they have accepted that the horse belongs to you and was taken from you illegally. I fail to see how you would be in trouble for reclaiming what is legally yours.
brighthair
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 30 August 2008
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- 4,170
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- Preston, Lancashire
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, if he was mine, I would be going up with a horsebox and his papers and a couple of heavies and he would be coming back home. The police have cautioned the person who you loaned him to for theft, therefore, they have accepted that the horse belongs to you and was taken from you illegally. I fail to see how you would be in trouble for reclaiming what is legally yours.
[/ QUOTE ]
this^^^^ - out of interest if you rang the police, said I am going to claim my property, you know the horse is mine and I am going on x day at x time and need you there whilst I reclaim the horse, what would they do? They couldn't arrest you for stealing?
Personally, if he was mine, I would be going up with a horsebox and his papers and a couple of heavies and he would be coming back home. The police have cautioned the person who you loaned him to for theft, therefore, they have accepted that the horse belongs to you and was taken from you illegally. I fail to see how you would be in trouble for reclaiming what is legally yours.
[/ QUOTE ]
this^^^^ - out of interest if you rang the police, said I am going to claim my property, you know the horse is mine and I am going on x day at x time and need you there whilst I reclaim the horse, what would they do? They couldn't arrest you for stealing?
ellamanamou
Well-Known Member
yes they can !!! i lost 3 to a woman i loaned to . she refused to give them back and the police told me that if i went on her yard to get them i would be arrested for tresspassing ! she sold 2 on and kept the best one ! LOL I STILL HAVE THE PASSPORTS ! she obviously just got 3 more ---- even though i phoned the passport company that had issued my passports and said they had been stolen. good one defra -- as usual. in the end i had to give up . the police just didnt want to know and i couldnt afford to bring any kind of civil court case-- which is why i loaned them in the first place . NEVER EVER LOAN
Rollin
Well-Known Member
Just a thought if the police are being less than helpful. The lady who was Chairman for BHS Scotland, although not now, Anella Cowan, is a Sheriff. Why not try emailing her I think BHS Development Officer for Scotland could put you in touch.
See what she has to say. I was not aware that some thieving is civil and other thieving is criminal!!! Was the theft of Shergar a Civil matter?
See what she has to say. I was not aware that some thieving is civil and other thieving is criminal!!! Was the theft of Shergar a Civil matter?
cariad
Well-Known Member
Rollin, theft is where you take something belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving them of it and is a criminal offence. The civil version is called conversion and it's where you have something in your possession to start with (sometimes illegally, though you may not be aware of that) and then you either form the intention to keep whatever it is or you do something as if it was yours i.e. sell it which you have no right to do. This has to be pursued through the civil courts and the remedy is either return of the goods or compensation.
If you put a horse out on loan, it remains yours no matter how long the loaner has it and regardless of whether you go to see it or not. There is no specified period after which an item, including a horse, automatically belongs to the person loaning it. You have to actively sell or gift it to the loaner for ownership - ot "title" to pass. If you don't have title to something, you cannot therefore pass title on - you don't have it to pass! Therefore you cannot pass on legal ownership. However many times a horse is passed on from the original owner in these circumstances, title never passes and always remains with the original owner.
If the horse is successfully retrieved from the last person "owning" it - and they may be entirely unaware they do not actually own it, having thought they bought it legitimately - then that person can lose out, as they end up with no horse and no automatic compensation for the purchase price. They have to turn to the person before them to look for recompense and so on. It's a messy and difficult business, to say nothing of the cost and most people don't bother. Quite often, the owner retrieving the horse will pay a nominal sum to the last "owner" as they're so pleased to take the horse back, but they're not obliged to.
Trespass too is a civil offence, not a criminal one. If you are trespassing, knowingly or unknowingly, you must leave as soon as asked to do so. However, if the person upon whose land you are trespassing wants to pursue it through the courts, then if they want some compensation, they have to show that some damage has been done to be compensated for, otherwise the compensation for the trespas itself is usually nominal and was a low as £50 in a recent case where it was decided there was a trespass, but only for a short time. Usually not worth pursuing unless you're very vindictive and/or rich!
Please do not rely on this brief explanation if you are in this situation, but always, always, take independent legal advice on your particular circumstances before doing or not doing something which may have adverse consequences for you, legal or otherwise.
If you put a horse out on loan, it remains yours no matter how long the loaner has it and regardless of whether you go to see it or not. There is no specified period after which an item, including a horse, automatically belongs to the person loaning it. You have to actively sell or gift it to the loaner for ownership - ot "title" to pass. If you don't have title to something, you cannot therefore pass title on - you don't have it to pass! Therefore you cannot pass on legal ownership. However many times a horse is passed on from the original owner in these circumstances, title never passes and always remains with the original owner.
If the horse is successfully retrieved from the last person "owning" it - and they may be entirely unaware they do not actually own it, having thought they bought it legitimately - then that person can lose out, as they end up with no horse and no automatic compensation for the purchase price. They have to turn to the person before them to look for recompense and so on. It's a messy and difficult business, to say nothing of the cost and most people don't bother. Quite often, the owner retrieving the horse will pay a nominal sum to the last "owner" as they're so pleased to take the horse back, but they're not obliged to.
Trespass too is a civil offence, not a criminal one. If you are trespassing, knowingly or unknowingly, you must leave as soon as asked to do so. However, if the person upon whose land you are trespassing wants to pursue it through the courts, then if they want some compensation, they have to show that some damage has been done to be compensated for, otherwise the compensation for the trespas itself is usually nominal and was a low as £50 in a recent case where it was decided there was a trespass, but only for a short time. Usually not worth pursuing unless you're very vindictive and/or rich!
Please do not rely on this brief explanation if you are in this situation, but always, always, take independent legal advice on your particular circumstances before doing or not doing something which may have adverse consequences for you, legal or otherwise.
cariad
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I should also have made it clear that if you are successfully sued for trespass, the compensation figure you have to pay may be quite small, but you may also find yourself liable for the costs of the other side as well as your own and these are likely to be a LOT! The "winner" in a court case generally gets their legal costs paid and does not have to pay the loser's, except in small claims, where no costs to either side are usually awarded.
Rollin
Well-Known Member
Yes I am aware of the law of trespass or as it was when I obtained my A level in English Law. ( a long time ago!)
However, the law of trespass is somewhat different in Scotland. From reading the posts it appears that this horse has been stolen and the police are treating the theft as a 'civil' matter.
I would take legal advice in Scotland if it were my horse.
However, the law of trespass is somewhat different in Scotland. From reading the posts it appears that this horse has been stolen and the police are treating the theft as a 'civil' matter.
I would take legal advice in Scotland if it were my horse.
cariad
Well-Known Member
Yep, quite right. I just set out the English law as it is a point that crops up quite a lot on here where horses go missing on loan. I don't even know if they have conversion in Scotland, either. You will know the old saying that possession is nine tenths of the law, which strictly speaking is not true, but it ain't half hard getting your own property back sometimes. It's a wonder anyone ever risks loaning a horse out at all, though I have done it myself with no problems.
Conversely, there's also no easy answer where you get lumbered with someone's horse when they disappear. You can only sell in certain circumstances and meanwhile you have to pay for it's keep etc.
Conversely, there's also no easy answer where you get lumbered with someone's horse when they disappear. You can only sell in certain circumstances and meanwhile you have to pay for it's keep etc.
Rollin
Well-Known Member
I actually suggested some time ago that people who take horses on loan pay a deposit at least equal to the 'meat value' which would at least deter some sales at markets. You could not rent a flat or hire a car without some sort of security.
Being left with someone's horse is another problem. A British resident in France was faced with that when the ex-pat lender returned to the UK. Doubly difficult when you are even more unsure of the law in France.
Being left with someone's horse is another problem. A British resident in France was faced with that when the ex-pat lender returned to the UK. Doubly difficult when you are even more unsure of the law in France.
cariad
Well-Known Member
But I suppose the problem with that is that people who are looking for loans are those without the necessary capital for a horse in the first place, otherwise they'd buy - or would they? With a loan you can always give it back (theoretically) at short notice, but if you have to sell, it can be difficult. Also, would a deposit of meat money be sufficient compensation for what you know is a good horse that you're loaning out because you don't want to lose sight of it in the long term by selling.
Non horsy people are often amazed when I explain to them that with horses, loaning and sharing is quite common. They can't understand it. You don't do it with dogs, or cars or whatever and they can't believe we hand over our animals to what could be complete strangers with no money changing hands and very often nothing in writing (not that it's a lot of good sometimes even if there is). But we do and very often it works well. Did for me. Welcome to the wonderful and mysterious world of horses!
Non horsy people are often amazed when I explain to them that with horses, loaning and sharing is quite common. They can't understand it. You don't do it with dogs, or cars or whatever and they can't believe we hand over our animals to what could be complete strangers with no money changing hands and very often nothing in writing (not that it's a lot of good sometimes even if there is). But we do and very often it works well. Did for me. Welcome to the wonderful and mysterious world of horses!
timthearab
Well-Known Member
I have my first court date through for civil against original loanee for return of goods, need paperwork from that to take to scotland. Had some money kindly donated to pay for court fees. Missing horses on loan have been great support and big thanks to BJ for donation XX
Rollin
Well-Known Member
I still don't understand why stealing someone's horsebox is a criminal offence but the horse is a civil case!!