my new horse had a tantrum today - adice please!

[JenTaz]

i think he needs more variety in what he is doing, personally i dont see why you cannot have him hacking out on the long reins even just taking him for walks, Taz, my horse is a full irish draught who was bought in by a riding school at three and was out hunting and common riding about 2 months later, then i bought him just before he has turned four, yes he is still growing but he'd be bored if i was asking him to do what your asking your four year old to do, and taz will only be six next april so he is still as you put it "physically immature" but he enjoys what he is doing, sorry but im just saying what i think as basically i dont get the point of asking a horse if they want a headcollar on or the point of natural horsemanship

but then again some people think its good, but i see it as the horse walking all over you if you have to ask to put a headcollar on, dont get me wrong some of the parrelli games are good builds a bond but thats about it

 

[Ditchjumper2]

I disagree I wouldnt want to be climbing on board a 4yo that has only been handled for 8 weeks! Asking to end up in hospital imo. The horse would need to be much more reliable and well handled before i would get on and thats only if its physically mature enough too. which is a big if, as some horses cant physically take a rider until they are older.

Neither would I in this case! What I meant was I would be doing more so that I could be looking to back him sooner rather than later.

 

[Brandy]

I think you kind of won, as you acheieved what youwanted inthe end. However, he also got a good lesson in how to dominate you - he charges at you, you leg it and leave him to it. Testing boudaries this maybe, but it is definitely dangerous and he does need to know that it is not acceptable. He is indeed bigger and stronger than you, and the more he knows it the worse it will be.

Safety is paramount, but if I thought I could manage it I would make an almighty fuss if he started charging, yes indeed chucking stuff at him or waving a whip about (not beating that will not help) making a noise etc.

He is quite clearly not ready to be backed if hes only been handled a few weeks, but I do feel you should be doing more with him, variety etc, and also sending him away properly rather than walking around as he does. You will get a better response, and it seems that he knows what to do rather than being properly joined up.

Well done for stayin calm and good luck.

 

[irishdraft]

I agree with siennasmum, why do you need to 'ask' to put the headcollar on, just put it on. i have two 3 year old Ids that i am backing and lightly hacking now, neither have ever displayed the sort of behaviour you are talking about. My ID mare i bought in Ireland was an unhandled rising 4 year old, she was backed and hacking in 6 weeks, using traditional methods. Of course every horse is different but i must admit I am not sure why people feel the need to do things in the round pen. Slowly introducing tack and work in a commonsense fashion has always worked for me, if the horse is disrespectful then i make it clear what is required, this dosent mean I use a stick.

 

[Kallibear]

I think you lost, big time. What he's now learnt is that if he threatens you, you run away. Twice. I wouldn't be suprised if he tries it again soon, and harder.

He is 4yrs old: he shouldn't be getting opinions or 'asked' if he wants to do stuff. He should be told 'this is how it goes. If you're nice and comply, the world is a lovely place. If you're not nice, it's not.' (which in NOT the same as ignoring him if he complains about something)

'Asking' and messing about like that just leads to a opinionated young horse with ideas about their station who throws their toys out the pram when things don't go their way. Right now it's only asking for the headcollar on and he decides he's not doing it until it suits him. What happens, later, when he decides that getting out the way of that bus that's aimed directly for you doesn't suit him?!

Many don't like the dithering pussyfooting around either. Insecure or nervous horses like someone in charge, who makes decisions for them and has the leadership aura to keep them safe if things go wrong. Treating them as an equal doesn't give them the leadership they need.

What you should have done was make threatening you highly unpleasent. Made him get the hell out of your space by any means possible - I'd have hit him hard with the long lines. Then he would have had to work hard round and round the pen for a couple of laps until the idea has sunk in. The second challange would never have happened.

I'd then not have bothered even trying with the halter as you were just setting yourself up to potentially fail (if you usually make a drama of 'asking' to have his halter on, then now is not the time to try it) - after a confrontation like that ALWAYS make sure the next thing you attempt is easily acheivable - going up and a nice scratch would be enough.

I just want him calm and confident with humans and to know that we are not the enemy, and that he likes being around us.

Thats a lovely sentiment, and very important, but you've forgotten the most important part of it, esp for a big young horse: he needs to learn to RESPECT humans too.

 

[RuthnMeg]

What your doing sounds good, ...but, it does also sound like you are pussy-footing around now. Many people would just say 'get on with it'. He needs variation, change of scene, something more to 'do' now.
It also sounds like you REALLY need another pair of hands/eyes to help you. This, I would recomend now too. You have got to get him thinking. He has to respect you. I, personally would carry a lunge whip - not to beat him, but just to back your body up - if that makes sense.
Don't forget to wear hat and gloves too!!

ps - Just take him to the pen, he should work on his own and be rewarded by going back to his friends, not confusing him by taking his friends away from him in a place that is not his 'zone' in the first place.

Good luck, and keep us posted on his progress, a pic would be fab too!!

 

[jodie3]

I am in a similar position to you, my boy is just 5 and hadn't been handled for about 3 years when I took him on and had only had fairly minimal handling in the first place.

Unfortunatley I only have his paddock to work him in but hopefully now he has been gelded I can move him down to the stables and start to do more with him.

He is an Ardennes cross so not a petite chap at all!

I certainly wouldn't be 'asking' him to have his headcollar on, although I can see where you are coming from I think that you are asking for trouble by being too nice to your boy. I think that you are blurring the boundarys of who is in charge in your relationship. If he was a bit poor when you got him he is probably now feeling well and will try it on with you. I think that you might be confusing him with your methods and he is not certain which of you is the boss.

 

[welshied]

I would say what you are doing sounds really good as to me groundwork is the mot important thing to have as if you don't have his respect on the ground you aint gonna have much luck when you come to get on him. I disagree with what someone said about smacking him as i don't see what that will achieve TBH but i would advise what others have said by making yourself as big as possible and make loads of noise to put him off as you need to make your body language look dominant, as when you left the round pen you did back off away from him and in away he won however the fact that you got him to turn back to you shows that you haven't lost his respect.
Good luck and thet us know how you get on

 

[Storminateacup]

I am in a similar position to you, my boy is just 5 and hadn't been handled for about 3 years when I took him on and had only had fairly minimal handling in the first place.

Unfortunatley I only have his paddock to work him in but hopefully now he has been gelded I can move him down to the stables and start to do more with him.

He is an Ardennes cross so not a petite chap at all!

I certainly wouldn't be 'asking' him to have his headcollar on, although I can see where you are coming from I think that you are asking for trouble by being too nice to your boy. I think that you are blurring the boundarys of who is in charge in your relationship. If he was a bit poor when you got him he is probably now feeling well and will try it on with you. I think that you might be confusing him with your methods and he is not certain which of you is the boss.

Thanks for all your replies. I really do appreciate ALL the comments whether favorable or not. I asked for your opinions after all.
I can assure all of you tthough, that I was not literally asking him to put his headcollar on anymore than one does with any horse that you go out into the paddock to catch , they have to "allow" you to catch them otherwise they would be running away not standing there letting you put it on in the first place, that is what I mean by "Ask" !
I certainly wasn't planning on grabbing an ear or lassoing him. (lol)
On a few other matters that have been raised I can answer as follows, he and his friend have a token feed, carrots and a handful of chaff, to get them in the round pen. Then I do the older horse first, turn him out and then do the youngster. The youngster has his full feed after his work.Older horse is a little portly so doesn't need as feed atm.
Since I ve had the youngster for eight weeks now the first three were spent getting him settled, and well, he was pretty poor when he arrived wormy with a dull coat and pretty lean and very scared he had lived all his life with his mother and half siblings. After that I just started scratching him all over, touching him everywhere, getting him use to me, putting his field safe headcollar on when he got it off, and generally making him familiar with me. We moved on to headcollar leading and desensitising with plastic bags and canvas bags and some work with rugs and numnah he is very bold about these things now. He was still crowding with leading at times and one time he shot past me at a canter, but with the rope headcollar he couldn't get away, so has been since then, and up 'til today,has been very gentle and compliant although I have to say still quite nervous and wary about me standing alongside him. Yesterday I had a brilliant session with him, he was leading round perfectly and when I stopped, he stopped and when I stepped back against him, he stepped back beautifully. We did this very gently and he was not at all stressed or bored but boldly walking along with me. I was hoping to move onto walking around the perimeter of the field today,with a view to perhaps getting him out of his field soon, but it all went pear- shaped !!

I only have a his field to work in with a small corner fenced off as a round pen, it is not impossible for him to jump out if he really wanted to, so thats another reason I maybe did not give him a whack when perhaps I should have been more forceful.

Anyway I don't really think I have been "pussyfooting around" as some would like to say these past few weeks, certainly we have been moving forward in what I can do with him, 'til today. The progress with lifting his feet has been enormous, and I even held one yesterday and he was reallty trusting. And all done with firmness and polite persistance but not FORCE.

As to getting him backed now, if only I could, but the only person I trust to do a good job, and has an impeccable reputation and fantastic credentials cannot take him until late autumn, and that is too late in the year for where I am in the country, ( dark at 3 in the afternoons in winter so not much riding in afternoons). plus I can only send him down once ( £600 for the round trip).

So there we are, - thats the situation now, chocolate lolly and Pinot Grigio for those that got this far, - well thats what I'm having anyway !!

 

[Storminateacup]

Agree with the advice from Irishcob, and a couple of others (can't remember, think some of what Sirena said). You did lose when you baled, but self preservation is a difficult instinct to battle!!!! However, you did end on a good note, managing to get a response acceptable to you before the end.

I would say it was just one of those boundary testing days, they happen. don't stress it, just carry on. Also, if it were me, I wouldn't stop for a few days, I would carry on as normal, dependent on horseys behaviour (I take note of their attitude every day before deciding what we'll do!), but bear in mind, now may be a good time to step it up a notch, give him something to think about.

Good luck, you're doing well, let us know what happens!!

T xxxxxxxxx

Thanks Tennessee for your encouragement if only I could find a western or NH wher I live, but no hope!

 

[Storminateacup]

TBH I would vary his work more, he is a 4yo and needs to be thinking about stuff. Is there a particular reason why he can't be backed until next May?

If there is, then there is still no reason why you cannot get him used to wearing tack/saddle etc, I would also think about teaching him turn on the forehand and shoulder fore, progressing to shoulder in - all in hand. I would also start to lunge and/or long rein him, you could start in the round pen but I would want him in a larger space quite quickly. Another good exercise to teach him to keep out of your space is to make him halt then YOU back away and make him stay where you put him, this is invaluable and some horses get it quickly, it just takes time and patience with others. Teaching him to halt by placing a schooling whip on his back is another excellent and invaluable aid, start by walking him along the side of the school, place the whip on his back and tell him to halt - you will be surprised at how quickly the majority of horses soon pick this up, just keep calm and patient and it really works. I had a particularly difficult youngster (dominant mare) who used to come back at you legs akimbo, and was one that I did smack across the chest with the whip! However using the above I created a 'naughty corner' in her stable, if she moved out of it by even the tiniest amount, I would just put her back and tell her to 'stand', it was the making of her and she turned into a super mare in the end.

I actually don't believe in doing the same thing day in day out, youngsters soon become bored with this and then trouble starts - this may be why he had his tantrum today.

Thats all very interesting, and actually I was starting to teach him turn on the forehand, moving his forehand away from me on both sides, he already can disengage the hind quarters when asked, crossing over his inside hind, but he doesn't like it too much, so was giving lots of praise, for this, then I thought we should try and work on the feet lifting business as thats a major welfare issue if neglected, so needs to be no big deal at the early stages of training. I have been trying to vary his training within the parameters of what he has learnt already and what we can progress to next.
Not doing same old boring stuff every day like some people seem to think!

 

[xloopylozzax]

i initially thought this thread was a joke

the only question is, why have you got this horse- he clearly needs someone to tell him what to do, who is a clear and concise leader and can actually do something with him (surely you buy a 4yr old project because you can back him yourself, not to wait a year until someone else can??)

you dont sound the most confident of people, and hes learnt to exploit that now unfortunately

 

[Storminateacup]

Maybe a friend can spare an hour or 2 a week?

Is there any reason why you must wait til next May??

If ONLY I had a friend willing to help, but they took one look at him hoolie-ing round the field and SCARPERED!!!!
The only "HELP" I can get where I live is if I pay someone to come and force him to do things until he freaks, (as he did a few weeks ago), then I have to pick up the pieces for the next few weeks until he settles . BEEN there already, - sad to say.

 

[Storminateacup]

Perfectly normal horse behaviour imo. His friend was turned out and he was left with you- so he had a flid and tried to dominate you. Not taking the piss and no need for a whip (as some say)- unless as an absolutely LAST resort as self defence if you were at risk. i think you sound sensible OP- groundwork in short sessions for an unhandled horse is vital and you sound like youre doing it right imo.

However, he did dominate you when you legged it! although i understand why you did. So you do need to work on making sure when you make yourself big/noisy that he backs away and submits to you. hes only 4 and unhandled, so its perfectly normal for this to take time. Ive got a 2 year old who tries it on regularly and needs telling regularly (no whips or beatings needing, just body language). i also used to have a big horse who tried it on EVERY day with her boss field companion and needed telling everyday to clear off! And he was a horse, so even harder for a persn to have the same effect! She still tried it on after 5 years! So it all depends on the character of the horse and some need more work than others.

Thank you teddyt, you understand fully where I am coming from on this.

 

[Denise657]

Make yourself big and scary, personally i wave the headcollar about cos it clinks and go 'ya!' I would also try being more dominant and walk towards him when he displays this behaviour.not sure how my nerves would hold though as mine was under 14hh when we had this problem and she never kicked out. Good luck with him,maybe try doing some backing up exercises they may help.

 

[Storminateacup]

and also sending him away properly rather than walking around as he does. You will get a better response, and it seems that he knows what to do rather than being properly joined up.

Well done for stayin calm and good luck.

I think you are making a very valid point here Brandy - I have not sent him away properly perhaps, and I think as you say, he may know what to do rather than being properly "joined up". I ve raised the fencing of the round pen by a foot tonight and tomorrow i will not be worrying that he may jump out when I push him a bit harder before I let him come in , thanks for your comment.

 

[jodie3]

Are you sending him down to Jason Webb to be backed? Just being nosy as would love to send my boy there.

It sounds as if you are definitely working in the right direction with your chap, sorry if I misunderstood what you meant about putting his head collar on. If you don't want to do the backing yourself then the more you can do in hand or on the ground the better. Lead him round the paddock, then take him out for walks so he sees and meets all sorts of different people, animals, traffic and surroundings. Practise loading and going out for trips in the lorry or trailer. Get him used to rugs and clippers etc. But most of all enjoy him!

 

[Storminateacup]

Are you sending him down to Jason Webb to be backed? Just being nosy as would love to send my boy there.

It sounds as if you are definitely working in the right direction with your chap, sorry if I misunderstood what you meant about putting his head collar on. If you don't want to do the backing yourself then the more you can do in hand or on the ground the better. Lead him round the paddock, then take him out for walks so he sees and meets all sorts of different people, animals, traffic and surroundings. Practise loading and going out for trips in the lorry or trailer. Get him used to rugs and clippers etc. But most of all enjoy him!

Yeah thats right,
I had hope to be able to back him myself but what arrived off the lorry was far bigger and athletic than I anticipated. So he is here now, and I have to do the best for him and I am sure he will be fabulous. If he is too much horse for me after backing at least he will be saleable, but as it is now he's not, and I feel I have a duty of care towards him too.
He is very loving and sweet most of the time!!!

 

[YorksG]

When one horse pushes a more dominant horse around, if the one lower down the order ignores the signals, it gets kicked or bitten! (as my mare discovered!) A smack with the line or the whip does the same trick, You are then the one in charge, I am fairly sure his mother didn't ask him if he wanted to move out of her way, she told him and followed up if he ignored her. If you allow him to move you he will continue to do so.

 

[brighteyes]

Storminateacup

Agree with most peeps - he's feeling well after your TLC and going through an alarming, but hopefully brief, cocky phase. If you can, ramp up the work variety. No good leaving him as he'll get ignorant, but since he sounds like a big lad with no psychotic or neurotic tendencies, a timely slap with something won't kill him!

I'm surprised at a couple of condemnatory posts on here and their originators. I had you down as someone who knows their way around a horse.

 

[AmyMay]

Haven't read all the replies, so apols if I repeat. But why not either send him to someone with an excellent reputation for starting youngsters - or get someone in to help you who is experienced???

 

[Tempi]

Words fail me.

LMAO Me too........

Seriously - the horse is taking the p*ss out of you and is walking all over you. You need to march up to it, be firm and put the headcollar on. Non of this faffing around waiting for him to come to you, seriously, you are asking for trouble and im not surprised he went nuts as he knows he can get away with anything with you. You are going to end up in trouble in the future with him if you dont sort it out now.

Probably not what you want to here, but you asked for advice!

 

[Tempi]

Yeah thats right,
I had hope to be able to back him myself but what arrived off the lorry was far bigger and athletic than I anticipated. So he is here now, and I have to do the best for him and I am sure he will be fabulous. If he is too much horse for me after backing at least he will be saleable, but as it is now he's not, and I feel I have a duty of care towards him too.
He is very loving and sweet most of the time!!!

Sorry if ive missed something - so did you not go and see or try the horse before it got ''delivered'' to your yard?????? Was he vetted??

 

[Booboos]

There are quite a few opinions on this thread now so I am sure you have a lot of ideas to consider, but could I add something on the use of food?

If I understand correctly, you are (at least partly) using food to lure him to do things such as walk in the pen. This does risk creating a situation where he will refuse to do things unless you feed him first. You would be much better off using food and other rewards such as a scratch or freedom, as a consequence of doing the right thing rather than a trigger for it. That way you can withhold the reward if he does not do the right thing (otherwise you may also find that he grabs the food and runs without doing the required behaviour).

 

[Luci07]

Ok, gave up reading 1/2 way through the thread. Peeps though - if you wish to criticise, then its only polite to read the WHOLE thread so you understand where OP is coming from. Its clearly stated that said horse was unbroken/backed/handled on arrival and OP is just putting in basic groundwork.!

My only contribution would be to ask - was this the first time you ever had a horse in with your youngster? because his behaviour might well have been caused then by you taking out the other horse and then "working" him. I am not excusing his behaviour and would have been as worried as you, but just wondered if this was your youngsters extreme way of saying he was worried about being left behind.

 

[Storminateacup]

Storminateacup

Agree with most peeps - he's feeling well after your TLC and going through an alarming, but hopefully brief, cocky phase. If you can, ramp up the work variety. No good leaving him as he'll get ignorant, but since he sounds like a big lad with no psychotic or neurotic tendencies, a timely slap with something won't kill him!

I'm surprised at a couple of condemnatory posts on here and their originators. I had you down as someone who knows their way around a horse.

Thank you bright eyes, yes, I think a timely slap is in order, and he has had a few already. He kicked out with his front feet like a lot of youngsters do and got a crack across the knees with my hand. I then clapped my hands at him when he next thought about it and that was a month ago, and hes not done it since. he also had a slap on the shoulder when he nipped me, and not done it since either.
He is just a boisterous mostly I think, and yes, I do know my way around a horse as far as training goes, just some people on this forum do not approve of NH methods and thats their opinion to which they are entitled, but I think some have been particularly harsh and have slatted me unnecessarily when they do not share my method, and some have been quite rude and unkind. I think some think I am a bit of a bunny hugger which is very far from the truth. If I think a whack is appropriate he will get one. He got a crack across the backside yesterday when he was naughty, but in fact it made him worse.
. I have moved forward quite a bit since he arrived with his training and general behaviour, and yes, for those that asked in other posts I bought him from a video and had him vetted by my vet (not five stage just the basic one) , when I got him home.
He did look smaller on the video, but then he was weak and in poor condition.

 

[Storminateacup]

Ok, gave up reading 1/2 way through the thread. Peeps though - if you wish to criticise, then its only polite to read the WHOLE thread so you understand where OP is coming from. Its clearly stated that said horse was unbroken/backed/handled on arrival and OP is just putting in basic groundwork.!

My only contribution would be to ask - was this the first time you ever had a horse in with your youngster? because his behaviour might well have been caused then by you taking out the other horse and then "working" him. I am not excusing his behaviour and would have been as worried as you, but just wondered if this was your youngsters extreme way of saying he was worried about being left behind.

Thanks Luci07, No he always comes in with the old boy has a token feed and the old boys goes back in field and youngster stays in corral/ round pen, sometimes he stays tied up to his post on an inner tube for a while too, to get him used to it.
But true he did seem more worried that day about something on the horizon. Once he has his rope headcollar on I am easily able to keep his attention on me and he becomes very quiet and relaxed. All the problems occured BEFORE I got the headcollar on - whilst he was at liberty.

 

[Tinypony]

I use "nh" methods all the time, I've been using them for over 10 years. From your postings I would say that you need some help, maybe you understand some "nh" training, but it does not sound as if you have the savvy to deal with this particular youngster.
Is there any reason why you aren't getting any help with him? I'd have thought Jason Webb would be right up your streed.

 

[Kallibear]

You weren't clear as to what 'ask' means - it sounds like you would hold the halter up to him and go say 'halter? oh go on, Please? Nope? Ok, never mind'. I actually do know people who do that!

Once he has his rope headcollar on I am easily able to keep his attention on me and he becomes very quiet and relaxed. All the problems occured BEFORE I got the headcollar on - whilst he was at liberty.

I still think you're making yourself unnessesary work over it - have him in a leather or field safe halter permenantly then catch him in that before putting the halter over/under it. Then he never gets the opperunity to say 'no' and you're setting yourself up for success.

I personally think you'd be stupid to start trying to break him if he's lacking basic ground work and the type of things he's presently doing are fine for his age and experience.

BUT again I still think you lost a big milestone when you let him chase you out of the school. I also think he may well try it again. This time if you 'loose' you could be in big trouble. That is one of the few time I would have gone beserk at him and belted him if nessesary (if he'd run, it wouldn't have been ness). Hat and body protected time, and send him off if he's rude or dominating (how hard depends on how rude he's been). It Sounds like he's got to the stage where he feels he trusts/understands humans enough to try it on and push his luck.

 

[Steorra]

Hello everyone!

Firstly, Storminateacup, I think you unfortunately came across as rather 'wishy-washy' in your original post, and this is often what peolple who dislike nh often object to. I admit I had visions of you helplessly clutching a headcollar while your horse walked all over you! Having read the rest of the thread I think you are a lot more practical than you first appeared.

When I have seen professional natural horsemen in action, their emphasis has always been on finding practical, no nonsense, but also non violent solutions for horses with problems. You seem to be heading in more or less the right direction, though I think you perhaps need to be a bit clearer about what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. You are meant to be the lead 'horse', and no lead horse would tolerate this behaviour from a young upstart!

If your horse shows any sign of agression in the round pen, at the very first indication try taking a couple of feet of your line and spinning k
it briskly in front of you like a windmill. March towards him with your head up and keep spinning - he will back off. Send him around the pen, keep him in trot and canter until he is showing unmistakeable signs of submission. If he hesitates or tries to turn in, advance again, spinning the rope. If he is coming towards you in his back legs then you haven't read his body language fast enough, you need to catch him at the first sign of aggressive behaviour.

I take it your rope halter is a pressure halter? Try sending him away with the halter on, on a smallish circle but with a long line (in trot). Practise sending him away and inviting him in, but in a situation where you make the decision. You wouldn't be forcing him in, but a few small circles of trot are very hard work for a young horse an he will learn to come in the moment he is invited.

I hope you find some of this helpful, and I'd be very interested to hear any comments. I'm far from an expert, but these techniques have worked for me in the past. Good luck!!