My TB turned on me today, please help?

If it had a brain tumour it would be smacking its head against a hard surface because of the pain it was enduring, no matter how school-masterish, or how many years its been off the track or how many years it was owned by one person it is a horse and horses do what horses do, there was probably a "big lion" in the bushes behind it when it was coming in from the field, sorry but why do people immediately have to think the worst that there is something wrong (oh shall I PTS it cant be handled as an example - not this poster) instead starting at the beginning and remembering that you are a human being (prey animal) dealing with a horse (flight/fright herbivore) that allows us to do all these things with it when it should be pretrified of us and it is just being a horse. If I got on the horse tomorrow and it decided to bolt with me after today rearing up at me okay I would think maybe we have a problem here, but a once off No.
 
The horse I dealt with who had a brain tumour never smacked his head against the wall in pain! He just erupted with frightening behaviour out of the blue.
 
Tammytoo said:
The horse I dealt with who had a brain tumour never smacked his head against the wall in pain! He just erupted with frightening behaviour out of the blue.
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Exactly my experience - I can only imagine the poster of this pearl of wisdom has very little real knowledge on this matter and is making rather an idiot of themselves with their very unhelpful comments.

I respect and believe the fact that the OP has owned this horse for several years and would not be posting this thread if the horse had thrown a bit of tantrum for whatever reason. What Op has described is (apparently) totally out of character for this horse and was NOT a spook at some imagined predator.

OP, I really hope you manage to find out what is going on and sort your horse out wihtout injury to you ar anybody else.
 
OP - it is very unsettling when a horse you know very well suddenly shows out of character behaviour. You know the horse the best and maybe being extra observant you may pick up on other things he is doing out of character. Generally there is a reason for it but we cannot always see it initially! I really hope you get to the bottom of it...good luck.
My old horse was pts with a brain tumour and her only sign of there being anything wrong was her banging her head against walls and the floor...it was awful....also bloods tested with liver failure - so it can happen. She was beautiful and I still miss her after 15 years.
 
to grumpyoldmare - we are all entitled to our opinions and I actually have a knowledge of wisdom with 2 vets 24/7 at my side (do you have that) I also have 45 years continuous experience with racehorses, show jumpers, eventers, stallions standing at stud, mares foaling etc and competed for my country (have you??) and to PitPony thank you very much for confirming my knowledge of wisdom about the horse banging its head against walls when suffering from a tumour, have a good evening grumpyoldmare and to the original poster just PTS its easier, you wont have to worry then about it being fresh or getting a fright or having a tumour.
 
beeswax said:
to grumpyoldmare - we are all entitled to our opinions and I actually have a knowledge of wisdom with 2 vets 24/7 at my side (do you have that) I also have 45 years continuous experience with racehorses, show jumpers, eventers, stallions standing at stud, mares foaling etc and competed for my country (have you??) and to PitPony thank you very much for confirming my knowledge of wisdom about the horse banging its head against walls when suffering from a tumour, have a good evening grumpyoldmare and to the original poster just PTS its easier, you wont have to worry then about it being fresh or getting a fright or having a tumour.
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:eek::eek: What a horrible post! OP, please ignore this nastiness. I wonder which bit of your plea to be gentle with you did this person not understand.

Oh no, hang on she's competed for her country so she knows everything. :D:D
 
Thank you all...well most of you!;-) I would like to confirm that I am definitely NOT a novice and just for arguments sake, I'm not someone new to horses on a panic whim..I breed my own horses to compete & deliver the foals myself. Before breaking my back when a horse fell on me on concrete, I rode point-to-point. I took horses out of training to retrain them for eventing. Since my accident, I solely do dressage & play polo & breed. Beeswax we are all entitled to our own opinions, but others are also and do not have to agree with yours.I actually found your posts a little rude but thank you anyway. To everyone else...thank you for your comments& advice..today he was as quiet as a lamb despite being quite a wild gusty wind..tho when stabled he was flinging his head about quite frantically-and no not weaving. I spoke to my vet who has known Safee since long before I've had him when he was in training and has referred him to their senior partner who I also spoke to today and he's coming out to take bloods on monday..for Beeswax and any of you concerned about his feed/exercise/turn out/hay, rest assured that hay is adlib,he's a picky feeder at the best of times but is on a special diet which I can assure you is high fibre & low protein and I have adjusted it accordingly to his workload.My horses get their feeds broken down into 4 meals per day with free access to hay and are all fed as they individually require..not more and not less and I don't feed to be fashionable either..they simply get what they need.My horses all go on the walker daily too aswell as being ridden so I'm pretty sure I've got all that wrapped up, I just didn't feel the need to bore you all with that in my original post/essay! At the end of the day they are all individuals, and will show symptoms & behaviours differently as we all do...several people have commented on minimal signs, others on massive signs..I'm just hoping it was something silly, but I can assure you it definitely was not playfulness..ears flat back with rage, neck out snaking when he wasn't rearing said it all...thats why I was in a quandry over smacking or just gaining distance and safety. Different if you have people on hand to help or notice if things go wrong, sadly I don't have that luxury!Hoping for good news after mondays tests...and hope I haven't started world war 3 on here!;-) thank you again for all you kind words tho xxx
 
beeswax said:
to grumpyoldmare - we are all entitled to our opinions and I actually have a knowledge of wisdom with 2 vets 24/7 at my side (do you have that) I also have 45 years continuous experience with racehorses, show jumpers, eventers, stallions standing at stud, mares foaling etc and competed for my country (have you??) and to PitPony thank you very much for confirming my knowledge of wisdom about the horse banging its head against walls when suffering from a tumour, have a good evening grumpyoldmare and to the original poster just PTS its easier, you wont have to worry then about it being fresh or getting a fright or having a tumour.
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:eek:
 
FionaM12 said:
:eek::eek: What a horrible post! OP, please ignore this nastiness. I wonder which bit of your plea to be gentle with you did this person not understand.

Oh no, hang on she's competed for her country so she knows everything. :D:D
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Bless you Fiona!;-) Just what I wanted to say, but you kind of wrapped it up without the warbling essay!x
 
beeswax said:
to grumpyoldmare - we are all entitled to our opinions and I actually have a knowledge of wisdom with 2 vets 24/7 at my side (do you have that) I also have 45 years continuous experience with racehorses, show jumpers, eventers, stallions standing at stud, mares foaling etc and competed for my country (have you??) and to PitPony thank you very much for confirming my knowledge of wisdom about the horse banging its head against walls when suffering from a tumour, have a good evening grumpyoldmare and to the original poster just PTS its easier, you wont have to worry then about it being fresh or getting a fright or having a tumour.
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Oh for goodness sake get over yourself dear! I wont even stoop to your ridiculously childish level of listing my credentials to boost my own self esteem!:rolleyes: Happily I dont feel the need to spout forth how very experienced and knowledgeable I am to members of an internet forum!

On one point I do agree with you completely - we ARE all entitled to our own opinions but if that opinion is only given to deliberately distress a genuine poster and give our own fragile self confidence a boost and loudly shout our own superior knowledge etc. etc., then we must expect others to comment on that rather bullying, spurious and dogmatic viewpoint surely?:)

No I don't have 2 vets at my side and if there knowledge tells you that horses with brain tumours will be banging their heads against the wall in agony, I have to say I am rather glad that they aren't constantly at my side, and I have access to vets with far more sensible and down to earth knowledge.:eek:
 
Actually I think having certain poster pts would be far easier and best for all horses & posters! If not perhaps she could kindly wind her very experienced neck in please or just drink less battery acid before each post..we are all obviously not worthy,congratulations.


I wonder if they just told her they were 2 vets at her side 24/7...not carers
 
grumpyoldmare said:
Oh for goodness sake get over yourself dear! I wont even stoop to your ridiculously childish level of listing my credentials to boost my own self esteem!:rolleyes: Happily I dont feel the need to spout forth how very experienced and knowledgeable I am to members of an internet forum!

On one point I do agree with you completely - we ARE all entitled to our own opinions but if that opinion is only given to deliberately distress a genuine poster and give our own fragile self confidence a boost and loudly shout our own superior knowledge etc. etc., then we must expect others to comment on that rather bullying, spurious and dogmatic viewpoint surely?:)

No I don't have 2 vets at my side and if there knowledge tells you that horses with brain tumours will be banging their heads against the wall in agony, I have to say I am rather glad that they aren't constantly at my side, and I have access to vets with far more sensible and down to earth knowledge.:eek:
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Thank you Grumpyoldmare....:D...I think you should change your name to sensible wise kind mare!
 
SaharaS said:
Actually I think having certain poster pts would be far easier and best for all horses & posters! If not perhaps she could kindly wind her very experienced neck in please or just drink less battery acid before each post..we are all obviously not worthy,congratulations.


I wonder if they just told her they were 2 vets at her side 24/7...not carers
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:D:D:D:D Hahahahaha.
 
SaharaS said:
Actually I think having certain poster pts would be far easier and best for all horses & posters! If not perhaps she could kindly wind her very experienced neck in please or just drink less battery acid before each post..we are all obviously not worthy,congratulations.


I wonder if they just told her they were 2 vets at her side 24/7...not carers
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We really do need to get a 'like' button on here!

Good luck with the vet SaharaS, hope you get to the bottom of this x
 
For a horse to act so out of character I would immediately suspect some underlying problem. It must have been very frightening and I hope the vet can get to the bottom of it. Hugs from me and best wishes.
 
grumpyoldmare said:
No I don't have 2 vets at my side and if there knowledge tells you that horses with brain tumours will be banging their heads against the wall in agony, I have to say I am rather glad that they aren't constantly at my side, and I have access to vets with far more sensible and down to earth knowledge.:eek:
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I'm not interested in this bickering to and fro however I do have to pick up on your point above. Horses banging their heads on walls or concrete floors IS actually one of the symptoms of a brain tumour. Making a mockery of another poster when they are giving out correct information does not make you look that great in my eyes irrespective of how brusque the other poster may have been.

To the OP it sounds like high spirits to me but it sounds like you are going to check it out further which is probably a smart thing to do if only to know that your horse is okay.
 
My Gingerwitch once had an episode like this about 15 years ago - she just went "mental" in the school with the girl that was riding her - it was so bad the instructor had to grab the horse to help the girl get chance to get off her - whatever went on they never found out - but it was almost like she had a "breakdown" - she never ever repeated the act again and was always very kind.

In her latter few years she did suffer with a kind of narcalepse - she would go to sleep, but then her leg locking system would fail and she would end up on the floor - I will never know but I often wonder if her "episode" prior to me buying her was linked to the narcalepse - I will never know until we catch up in the roundup in the sky, as she was pts last year after a particulary bad period of her illness.

Good luck - lets be positive, and maybe it was just a one off - maybe something went up his nose and stung him? I have had that happen once too and that was a darn scary experiance

GW
x
 
skydancer said:
Sounds to me like his just feeling good and happy in himself:)
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no offence, but no horse that I have ever owned or handled in 21 year has ever expressed his 'goodness', wellness or 'happiness' in himself by rearing, boxing and kicking at the face in an agressive manner. Folks OP has owned this horse for 7 years (I think she said) if she says it was out of character and aggressive, then I think we can safely say it was out of character. I am sure that in 7 years of ownership the OP knows what behaviour constitutes this horse feeling 'good and happy' OP if this is out of character, I would pester the hell out of your vets, if they are not responsive, I would call another vets. If the horse is behaving in a dangerous manner that is as you say, totally out of character, trust your instinct, you know your boy. I wish you luck and a happy resolution to this, please keep us posted :)
 
beeswax said:
If it had a brain tumour it would be smacking its head against a hard surface because of the pain it was enduring, no matter how school-masterish, or how many years its been off the track or how many years it was owned by one person it is a horse and horses do what horses do, there was probably a "big lion" in the bushes behind it when it was coming in from the field, sorry but why do people immediately have to think the worst that there is something wrong (oh shall I PTS it cant be handled as an example - not this poster) instead starting at the beginning and remembering that you are a human being (prey animal) dealing with a horse (flight/fright herbivore) that allows us to do all these things with it when it should be pretrified of us and it is just being a horse. If I got on the horse tomorrow and it decided to bolt with me after today rearing up at me okay I would think maybe we have a problem here, but a once off No.
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Not so, my farrier was fine, he got kicked in the head and carried off to hospital, when they opened him up to stop the bleed they found a tumour that would have eventually killed him, this was removed and he still lives over 10 years later, if he hadn't been kicked they reckon the symptoms would have presented themselves too late to do anything about it. If a tumour presents itself in the correct area of the brain it can wreak all sorts of havoc before it presents its self as painful. It is all relevant to the location of the presenting tumour. If it is near to pain receptors, then there is more of a chance that it will present itself as 'pain' in the onset. If however the tumour is present in the area that controls emotions, then it will affect this aspect of the horse before presenting with pain.

OP this is not to say that this is what is wrong with your chap, we are not vets even if some of us have 2 qualified vets alongside us '24/7'
 
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beeswax said:
If it had a brain tumour it would be smacking its head against a hard surface because of the pain it was enduring, no matter how school-masterish, or how many years its been off the track or how many years it was owned by one person it is a horse and horses do what horses do, there was probably a "big lion" in the bushes behind it when it was coming in from the field, sorry but why do people immediately have to think the worst that there is something wrong (oh shall I PTS it cant be handled as an example - not this poster) instead starting at the beginning and remembering that you are a human being (prey animal) dealing with a horse (flight/fright herbivore) that allows us to do all these things with it when it should be pretrified of us and it is just being a horse. If I got on the horse tomorrow and it decided to bolt with me after today rearing up at me okay I would think maybe we have a problem here, but a once off No.
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Settle down!

Firstly - horses can have a brain tumour and definately not be banging their heads against a wall - the problems come and go. Of the ones I've dealt with they have often been very sudden in the demented behaviour - galloping flat out in one direction going through fences in the way. Dropping in their tracks. Developing strange wandering behaviour, suddenly becoming head shy.

From an earlier post of yours -
TB's were NOT bred as more flight horses than any other breed, they were initially bred in the 1680, when the Byerley Turk was first used over UK native mares, 1704 Darley Arabian, 1729 Gadolphin Arabian.

This owner is distressed because of the way her horse behaved. She has mentioned the change in the texture of the mane - a curly coat is indicative of early cushings. We have more than one problem here.

First as I mentioned earlier. Take the horse off all hard feed and feed adlib hay for a couple of weeks. Lead in a bridle or lunge cavesson with a long lead and wear a helmet. Have teeth checked.
 
beeswax said:
to grumpyoldmare - we are all entitled to our opinions and I actually have a knowledge of wisdom with 2 vets 24/7 at my side (do you have that) I also have 45 years continuous experience with racehorses, show jumpers, eventers, stallions standing at stud, mares foaling etc and competed for my country (have you??) and to PitPony thank you very much for confirming my knowledge of wisdom about the horse banging its head against walls when suffering from a tumour, have a good evening grumpyoldmare and to the original poster just PTS its easier, you wont have to worry then about it being fresh or getting a fright or having a tumour.
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OMG, what happened, your partner dump you or something? How very cruel. Please PM me your name and address so I know who not to sell a horse to. I see that you are in the business, and understand that it can be a bit cut throat but that post consists of the hardness of diamond with all the indelicacy of acid. Just because you have seen a tumour present itself in that way, does not make it so in every case, and since OP's horse is not 'banging its head against the wall' and consequently you would assume it does not have a tumour why the hell post something so unfeeling and callous.

No, someone must have ticked you off today or you wouldn't be so brutally cruel and unfeeling and quite frankly so totally unhelpful with your posting.
 
Must have been very scary :( Possibly something upset / unsettled him??

The only experience I have of something similar(ish) was when I had to start walking my TB out in hand after he had been on 6 months box rest as a result of fracturing his leg. My horse is an absolute gent - I would be happy to let kids lead and ride him, and all the time he was on box rest he was an absolute star. The walking out however must have just blown his mind - the first time he was fine, the second he reared and went for me.

It was so very out of character for him, and at first I was more concerned about him shattering his broken leg when he landed that it took a second or two to register her was striking out at me. He had the scariest look in his eyes as if he actually wanted to cause me some damage. He looked seriously pissed off with life and me!! I somehow managed to get him back into his stable and refused to try walking out again (I explained to the vet) - so he went back on box rest. After that he went back to his gorgous self, and 6 months on is 100% my lovely old gent who is a dream to handle and such a soppy old thing.

Maybe something in them 'snaps' when they go into survival mode - and makes them behave like that. For my boy it may have been the frustration at not being allowed out for so long and then being out, but not properly. There may have been something similar that set your horse off.

Just to add, I was wearing a hat, gloves and BP at the time (Luckily as I had a hoof print on my hat as a result of his antics!)
 
Evelyn said:
Settle down!

Firstly - horses can have a brain tumour and definately not be banging their heads against a wall - the problems come and go. Of the ones I've dealt with they have often been very sudden in the demented behaviour - galloping flat out in one direction going through fences in the way. Dropping in their tracks. Developing strange wandering behaviour, suddenly becoming head shy.

From an earlier post of yours -
TB's were NOT bred as more flight horses than any other breed, they were initially bred in the 1680, when the Byerley Turk was first used over UK native mares, 1704 Darley Arabian, 1729 Gadolphin Arabian.

This owner is distressed because of the way her horse behaved. She has mentioned the change in the texture of the mane - a curly coat is indicative of early cushings. We have more than one problem here.

First as I mentioned earlier. Take the horse off all hard feed and feed adlib hay for a couple of weeks. Lead in a bridle or lunge cavesson with a long lead and wear a helmet. Have teeth checked.
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Agree. And, as ever, if you need to find an answer on a forum, perhaps the level of experience is questionable?
 
The brain itself actually has no pain receptors. What causes headaches when people (and I assume horses) have tumours is swelling in the brain. This swelling affects the meninges (brain coverings) which are extremely pain sensitive. As long as there is no swelling a brain tumour would not present itself by head banging that is triggered by pain. Depending on where it is in the brain, tumours can cause all sorts of differnt behavioural abnormalities.

OP I hope the vet finds a more benign reason for your horses behaviour. Brain tumours are rare. I would be interested to hear what your vet has to say. Perhaps you could post an update? All the best.
 
Horses banging their heads on walls or concrete floors IS actually one of the symptoms of a brain tumour. Making a mockery of another poster when they are giving out correct information does not make you look that great in my eyes irrespective of how brusque the other poster may have been
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yes it is ONE presentation of a brain tumour but saying that it is "correct" was incorrect as it was intimated that ALL brain tumours present that way... they dont !


Many posters are correct in that it might "just" be too much feed or a spook or a sting etc .... but given that this behaviour is for her horse extreme and so out of character I think that the OP is sensible in looking for possible other causes as well looking to see if there are any other things she might have missed / patterns.

Too often we ignore mild signs and its not till the horse shows extreme behaviour that we make connections. My mare showed milder behavioural symptoms of discomfort ( which i had put down to seasons which she did find uncomfortable) but getting worse ..... before she escalated into rearing and throwing herself at a gate one day. When the vet listened to me and scanned her she had a huuuuuuuuge ovary which was thought to be cancer :( . Luckily it was not but she does get persistant ovulatory follicles.


Now of course that cannot be the case with this lad :rolleyes: for rather obvious reasons :D ....... but I think that its not over fussing to at least consider that there might be a physical cause.
 
Caledonia said:
Agree. And, as ever, if you need to find an answer on a forum, perhaps the level of experience is questionable?
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I don't think the OP is trying to find an answer as such, probably more upset at horses out of character behaviour, and posting here is a way of processing what has happened. Wanting peoples experiences... putting her own into perspective.
Ive been handling horses for 30yrs, only ever seen 1 horse with a brain tumour, so if my TB suddenly acted in an agressive way towards me, (when he is so quiet normally ) and I know the difference between being silly, and being nasty, I would also be thinking something must be very wrong.

OP, I hope you have an answer after the vet has been, in the meantime, stay safe.
Kx
 
Im really sorry for your experience it hard when your old relibles play up three out of four of my horses are saints. Even if their on there toes they know how far they can go. I know how scarey it is to have a horse rear at you and would not except that from them. Im lucky it only my 15 hands that rear at me if it was my 17 hand built like a tank did it i dont know what i do. Keep safe i really do know how scarey it is
 
Circe said:
I don't think the OP is trying to find an answer as such, probably more upset at horses out of character behaviour, and posting here is a way of processing what has happened. Wanting peoples experiences... putting her own into perspective.
Ive been handling horses for 30yrs, only ever seen 1 horse with a brain tumour, so if my TB suddenly acted in an agressive way towards me, (when he is so quiet normally ) and I know the difference between being silly, and being nasty, I would also be thinking something must be very wrong.
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Fair point. It's the more over the top comments that triggered my response about asking on a forum, but also that one person's description of a horse attacking is another person's overly excited/stressed horse. If the horse had really meant to attack, the OP wouldn't be posting, she'd be in hospital.

We didn't see it, so can't really comment fairly for the horse. Having a vet out to test for Cushings is a better option. If that is a likelihood (curly mane a possible indicator) then over-reaction to a stimulus is a strong possibility.

This is a good link -

http://www.depaoloequineconcepts.com/library/cushings_syndrome.aspx

OP, I hope it was just a one off.
 
Caledonia said:
Agree. And, as ever, if you need to find an answer on a forum, perhaps the level of experience is questionable?
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The reason I posted Caledonia is that I am a great believer that even the most experienced people will still have a billion things they do not know, it is not physically possible and even vets will often confer with one another...and whilst waiting for my vet to return my call-baring in mind I live in a valley with v bad signal and land lines are currently down,I was hoping that someone else had had a similar experience that I could learn from..for example I lost a 3yr old to grass sickness in2002 my vet at the time when I first called him out said I was being neurotic and did not come. A female vet came that eve and took tests.8 days later he wrote a written apology to me after putting her to sleep because she had grass sickness. Basically what i am trying to say is that even professional vets with many years experience do not always know everything..I do know that i know my own horse. Rather than doubting my experience, please try see it as I have no previous experience of such a drastic change simply because i have been lucky enough not to have had a horse with cushings, tumors or brain problems(thank god)..that is why I do not feel it is shameful to openly broaden my horizons rather than being blindly indignant that I know everything..which NONE of us can say. That said, thank you for your later post with the link.
At the end of the day we all love our horses and most of us would do everything we can to ensure their welfare is top priority and hindsight being the marvellous thing it is, I feel it is no bad thing to share experiences. Many of us have lost horses and would dearly love to help others avoid the pain and heartache from our experiences...no matter how silly they seem...
 
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