My youngster is not going to event, where do I go from here???

As others have said only speaking from experience I wouldn't rush - similar to you I bought a 3yr old WB to back and bring on as my horse of a lifetime, she was never particularly difficult but has been very slow to mature. She's 8 now and we are only starting to BS this season. It has been the last few months that she seems to have really settled down and we are getting on better than ever.

Yours is still only a baby and I've read on here that WB's are slow to mature, I'd really just give him time and look at how well you've done to be able to get him jumping, going to dressage comps and doing x country schooling - no mean feat, you've obviously done well.
 
Also can you go anywhere locally to hack, where it is safer and maybe with a friend to start with, and enjoy hacking, my mare hated it when I got her but now Ive learnt (sounds like KatB's and Millitigers mares) that you have to be firm but fair and give her a little time to think about things and never force the issue, else she will win.

My mare hates water trays and in a lesson with a great trainer as a few of us were panicking, so he found a horse which was confident and sent us all round following that and she didnt even look then after a couple of goes she went on her own without a care in the world, when at the start she wouldnt even walk up to look at it, so a difficult situation was avoided and a nice outcome!!!

Give him time and take the pressure off not all horses mature at the same rate!!!
 
For god's sake, change your trainer and do you and your horse a favour!

Sounds like you have come a long way with your horse since you got him. Agree what everyone else has said. He's just 5 and still working life out.

I've got a 5 year old I've had since she was rising 3 and she showed a real talent from the very start. There was the temptation to push her too hard too soon, but the last two years she's had lots of time turned away munching and playing in the field (or fields - she is a fence-hopper!). I had pressure on me to get her out and about eventing last year in the BE80 classes and have her doing BE90 by now. But I stood my ground and took it easy with her. She only did a few dressage comps last year and this year has been out and about doing fun things.

My usual trainer was teaching me last week and I told him my 5 year old was getting tired and I wanted to call it a day at that point as she'd jumped really well for the whole session. But he insisted I jump yet another jump and madam put in a dirty stop (her usual way of telling me her brain is about to explode). My reaction was to just let her chill for a few minutes, then we'd pop her over a fence before finishing. My trainer wanted me to 'leather her' and bully her over the fence.

I am now questioning my trainer and their methods.
 
Wowsers that does sound extreme.... I also have a SSH and without generalising he does sometimes have a 'WB' day (when he suddenly thinks perfectly ordinary things are really quite frightening, and goes a bit 'dizzy' and then some days has a 'Sports Horse' day when he seems really quite clever and VERY stubborn! However we also get days when he has the best of both - the flashy paces and action of a WB and the brain of an ISH (apologies to anyone I have offended there - did say I was generalising!)
However he is only 4.... and is a bit like a human teenager!
I'd agree fully with the others, if he hasn't had any time off since backing, turn him away for a few months. Also forget XC for now. And maybe hunt this winter if you can?
 
I agree with others-change your trainer. You have obviosuly achieved alot with the horse but whatever anyones ideas are of what they should be doing at 4/5/6 years old if the horse isnt physically and mentally capable then you cant do it! Unless you want to spoil them.

I personally wouldnt turn him away but just back right off. Hack when you can (even if you have to travel) and in the mean time work in the arena or at other venues on basic confidence building stuff. This can be in hand too. Use your imagination and teach him that he can trust you. Stay jumping tiny stuff of all sorts of scary things until he is totally ok before doing bigger. Box to a xc course and just hack round, pop the odd jump- make it fun again!

IMO he is telling you he cant cope and because you have been pressurised by your trainer you havnt listened. One of mine didnt start eventing until he was 7 because he wasnt ready (for him, physically) before then. I dont care, apart from anything else he will last longer!
 
KatB said:
You need a different trainer :( You are risking making things that are just baby steps into a huge issue :(
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Others far more knowledgeable than me have said what I thought when I read your post CM. He's a baby. He's gone from knowing nothing to suddenly, in the space of a year or so, having to learn and deal with a huge amount of stimuli. Give him, and yourself, a break. And ditto, from the info given, change the trainer :(
 
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My horse refused to jump into water. So I stopped asking and then neither of us could get upset! Instead we walked into water and kept moving on with good experiences and after a couple of months with lots of confidence behind him he jumped straight in off a step. He is the stubborn kind so there is no point having a battle. You just ask a different question. Hunting really helped my horse as he was backwards mentally. Also never going above what he was confident at. Now he is an amazing cross country horse really brave and bold but will look after you. It took hours of patience which I am not great at!
Why not try a fun ride? If he says no you move on if he says yes he gets heaps of praise and move on? Keep building confidence points. He looks quite physically immature at the moment in his frame so am sure it will come but it just needs to be fun and pressure free.
 
Wow congratulations on having come so far with your lovely-sounding youngster.

I'd echo what the others have said - please don't give up too soon. It is entirely possible that he won't make an eventer. However, it is also possible that he's just a little slower to "cope" with things, and that he needs time. The reason I say this is that my youngster went through various phases. Unfortunately I don't have a happy ending due to injury, but the journey has been fascinating (to me - saddo!). My youngster as a 4yo was the most happy-go-lucky sweetheart you could imagine - hacked anywhere alone or company, would be scared of new things sometimes, but easily reassured, never silly, jumped anything but wary of new poles/changed fences.

On his 5th birthday (March) he turned into fire-breathing dragon that freaked out at everything. He bucked me off at our first outing on grass that year (April), within 30 seconds of arriving. Our 1st and 2nd jumping shows (April/May of that year) were a trial of boredom for everyone else - the organisers kindly allowed me plenty of time to a) approach and b) finally get over, each filler. I persevered, always taking baby steps and gave him much praise.

By July I ended up driving home crying my eyes out I was so happy with him after our first jumping clinic - new venue (grass outdoors!), massive scary fillers, other horses about. He was awesome. Flew everything - didn't bat an eyelid at any of the scary jumps despite the numpty on board (me). The next day we did our first working hunter class (he'd never seen anything rustic, or had to jump through greenery before) and also a jumping class with new scary fillers. Again, he was amazing - flew everything. Unfortunately that was the last outing due to all his injuries, but I genuinely believe he'd found his bravery - I just needed to give him the time.

After all that waffle I hope I've given you a hope that there is still a chance your youngster will come good. Good luck, he sounds amazing so I wish you every success.
 
Cripes, he is FIVE!!!! if he was, say, 9 and i read all that, i'd think "not cut out for it..." but at 5, and only started xc schooling last week... are you kidding? and you spent 8 hours out there... i hope that was a typo!
you know he took lots of time to back. and to become accustomed to working on grass. and to sjs probably. so, that's just the kind of boy he is, he'll take time to get used to xc.
PLEASE go and do something he enjoys and finds easy for a few days, and then give him a month or two off to grow up. then gradually reintroduce xc again, somewhere teensy, no big questions. let him learn SLOWLY if he's that kind of horse. it sounds to me as if he has mental meltdown/overload and then totally loses it...
just because he's jumped a fence in a certain place doesn't mean he'll go straight over it elsewhere, this is a typical baby horse thing, in a new place it might have a new dragon living in it, you know...!
i hope you find a patient trainer who will humour him, let him learn gradually, and keep you relaxed and happy with baby steps!
 
charlimouse said:
I am the only person who has ever ridden him, and on the flat in an arena he is so intune with me he listens to my thoughts, rather than my aids. Everybody is telling me to sell him, but who would buy a horse like this? He follows me round the field, he won't allow anybody else to lead him, and if we are out and he looses sight of me he panics majorly. But I feel like I have completely failed him.
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This paragraph concerns me.. it sounds so like Mick when I first bought him, I had all of the above. Rearing, he would walk serveral feet on hind legs. You couldn't train a circus horse to do it more perfectly than Mick could.

He doesn't understand what you are asking him, so with this type you have to take much longer with them. to be on a xc course for 8 hours is just not fair. and did you go back 3 days? that would just be mental overload for the poor guy. He has taken the defensive and thats why he is being as he is. He doesn't understand what you are asking of him so he is responding the only way he can. It took me 18 months to get Mick on my side from being like your horse.

When you say about he won't let anyone else lead him, and he has major panics when you leave him - he is seeing you as his subordinate, he panics and shows off as he wants you to come back - and what do you do? Come back.. I don't think he is in tune with you, I think he is your leader, and it needs to be the other way round. If you ask him to do something he doesn't want to do he throws his toys out the pram. You need to get other people handing him and riding him (I know this may be hard as I had that problem).

You can recover this, I did and I'm probably less experienced than you. You haven't failed him yet, I think you are smothering him. Let him be a horse and treat him like one.

My situation got that bad I had Richard Maxwell out and he was amazing. I learnt so much. From then on things changed for the better. Also, I was told that horses like mine take far longer to mature. (he was just 6 when I bought him).

I agree with people saying change trainer too. If I had the trainer then that I have now - Dark_Knight, I think we would have progressed a lot quicker.

If you want any more information pm me and I can send you the full routine / theorys of what I had to do. It may sound crazy at first, and I'm no tree hugger, but I had to do something to save my horse from himself really.!

If its any help to you, I now ShowJump, Event and do everything I want. He is so polite. I even have people who want to buy him, but he's going nowhere. xx
 
Sorry, It won't let me edit. Just wanted to say, I did lots of groundwork too in the manage. I played games and did halter work. I stopped schooling and only hacked.
 
I may be repeating others here, but I am very concerned that either you or your horse are going to end up seriously hurt if you continue with this method of training. One day you may push him too far and either you, or him, could end up with a broken back from a vertical rear that ends up going over. No trainer of mine would EVER push my horses so we are getting to that point - and neither should yours be.

So, you have established that the trainer needs to go - brilliant.
You also mentioned you have an established event horse already (?) - so why push this one to be 'ready' before his time? Sit back and really take stock of the horse you currently have and how long you want to have him for....

Then start to undo any slight 'damage' that may have occurred mentally with your horse and make his work fun again before it is too late. You mentioned he is great at dressage - get him out and about doing this both in arenas on grass and leave jumping well alone for the meantime. Then introduce 'fun' jumping at a low level in both arenas and on grass (with summer coming up that should be easy). I personally wouldn't go near an xc course until next year - you can do farm/sponsored rides for now and pop the odd log on them.

You could turn him away, as others have suggested, but I have found with many of my sharp horses this is not the best option - they get bored because they need to keep their brains active. But whatever you decide to do - keep firm with your horse so he knows who's boss, but give him a chance to process all the information you throw at him. He has already gone from an unhandled 3 year old to a good dressage/sj horse at only 5. That has been a lot for him to take on board - the stress of this may be coming out through his 'attachment' and dependence on you....which isn't healthy.

Good luck and enjoy your summer with him x
 
charlimouse said:
Where I am the hacking is all on busy roads, except for a very short track, and there are no hills as I live on a flood plain!

Thanks for all the advice. My trainer has been getting at me for weeks to get him out XC, and that he should be doing BE by now, so why am I wasting time!?!?!?! I think the problem is he was looking pretty established at home, so we thought he was ready. I am supposed to be taking him XC next week on a clinic, with my trainer, who told me yesterday to make sure I bring a lunge whip, and if necessary we can park a car next to jump to shine light on it once it gets dark. She is of the opinion that he must never get away with not jumping a fence, however long it takes.

I may try a different trainer.................
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QR
I am another one who would vote for a change of trainer. I have a TB home bred who is turning 6 this yr, he wasn't sat on till 4 wasn't mentally ready, then did a few weeks turned out worked and turned out. Its only this yr that I am seriously considering starting his competition career. OH has a huge warm blood who came to him at 4yrs old a massive quivering bundle of stressy nerves, its taken 3 yrs to take him xc schooling, went last week popped everything, then the temptation was to do more, but didnt. We never expected this horse to cope with xc but fingers crossed he is now physically and mentally ready for it. Have also got an 8yr old Irish TB, who we say is going on 4, we believe he was pushed a s a baby (not by us) as he showed talent, but couldn't cope with it, now he is learning to trust his rider/handler and his issues are improving.

I am not criticizing you, there is a huge amount of pressure to get young horses out and about and competing, I feel that pressure myself it hard just not to give in expect more from the horse than it is ready to give. There are times that I feel like giving it all up as mine are older but without solid competition mileage and some people will comment, but he is nearly 6 and you haven't done anything yet, but hopefully I will have a horse that will be happy to work into his 20's.

You have had a difficult time even backing your boy, give both of yourselves a break, and some time, as others have said turn him away for a while then start with gentle low key fun.

Good luck with him he is a stunning looking lad.
 
I agree with giving him a month or two in the sun to chill out.

Then I would try a spot of hunting or a few pleasure rides. He should find it easier going out in groups. Then gauge whether he's matured & grown a pair of balls.

Some horses (like people) are not brave. You need a brave horse to do XC. Likewise you need a brave person to be in the army or police. Some people are better suited to working in offices, the same applies to horses.
Find their forte & go with that. If you horse cant XC at BE level, then think of a plan B.
 
Can i just say that it is possible to develop bravery in a horse. my first homebred was an utter wuss, at our first PN the track went through some woods and she stopped dead and goggled in horror at the shady slope, there wasn't even a fence there! i thought she'd never be brave enough for N but she learnt to be, after a few wussy stops here and there, and when she went to Int (after plenty of N runs to build up tons of confidence) she never had another stop or run-out. she would definitely have gone Advanced if she'd been tough enough, she did Weston 2* CCI without a blink... but honestly, if you'd seen her at 5 you'd have thought she wouldn't have the courage to do an Intro. it just took time and repetition. (fwiw i NEVER had to beat her, spend ages at a fence, etc etc, it was just patience and time.)
 
I think you've been offered lots of good advice on here. There isn't simply one solution to every problem and many of the possible options offered will likely work at least to some extent.

Excuse me if I've misread, but you sound like the sort of person who likes having A Plan.;) So, for example, I might advise something like this.

1) Find yourself a "horse friendly" trainer, preferably one specialising in young/problem horses and known for a patient, effective approach. I do take umbrage though, with the idea that only Richard Maxwell can help you now - he's obviously very good but so are lots of other people.;) Any road, you might be best suited long term by someone you have relatively easy access to. Ask around your area, ask on here etc.

2) Ask said trainer to come to assess your horse. A knowledgeable person, used to dealing with situations like this should have a decent working knowledge of physical issues, the effect of training gaps, assessing personality etc. and be able to help you decide whether the horse needs a break, veterinary assessment or simply a lessening of demands. An experienced person should be able to sort out what is fear, what is confusion and what is lack of aptitude (more later) in relatively simple ways, without stressing your horse out. Said person should also be agreeable to proceed or defer further involvement depending on what conclusion you both come to.

3) I don't think it will hurt the horse to have some time off. (Although it may not be essential either unless he's sore in some way.) He's very young and he's done quite a bit. I suspect, given some of what you describe, he's likely hurting a bit, even if there's nothing technically "wrong". I think people might be surprised by how relatively little work, time wise, good producers put into horses - it's not about doing a lot of work, it's about doing the right work, at the right time, if and when it's needed. Too much is just as counterproductive as too little.

4) Ask your new advisor to talk you through signs that your horse, in particular, is feeling stressed. I'm theorising obviously, but it sounds to me that he's been telling you quite a bit and you have even suspected as much, but you've been overridden by a more forceful personality. Learn to recognise the early signs so you can quit while you're ahead.

5) Sort out any "holes" in your horse's education. I know it's so appealing to have a horse that loves only you - The Black Stallion Syndrome - but you're not doing him any favours and it's not good horsemanship. Sorry to be blunt, but when one has a young horse one is effectively its "parent" - you wouldn't have a child that couldn't go to school or operate in public because of a fear of other people.

6) If you have to have goals, make them ones of accomplishment not time. The great thing that experience gives you is a knowledge of patterns and how to play the long game. I'm never fussed about the rate of progress and rarely frustrated (by horses, anyway ;) ) because I know I've been there before and will get there again, by whatever means suit the horse and the situation best. No worries. ;)

7) After you've dialled everything down a bit, have the horse assessed under more realistic circumstances. While I agree it's possible to teach almost any horse almost any job, I don't think that's always advisable or even fair. And doing a job is a long way from doing a job WELL and enjoying it. Never teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig. :D If your educated, empathetic trainer (perhaps aided by a similar person more specialised in higher level event horses) genuinely feels, after a fair chance, your horse would be happier NOT doing the job I think it's good horsemanship to respect and accommodate that. I think ego should NEVER come before what's in the horse's best interests, no matter how well meaning the apparent intent.

I would expect, bare minimum, to spend a year on this plan, if only to get to the point where you know whether or not it's worth continuing. Of course, for all sorts of very valid reasons, you may decide along the way to go another way with the horse's training and/or offer him for sale. This is NOT a failure. The only failure could be subverting the horse's best interests to your own goals to the point where you do him harm and deny him the possibility to do a job he's more suited for. You're nowhere near that point yet but if, AFTER A FAIR TRIAL, you're pushing him to be something he isn't, how is it *best* to continue along that path?

So, deep breaths. :) Take a few steps back and give yourself and your horse a bit of time. You will find the right answer for your situation but you have to accept, it won't always come to order. Best of luck.
 
To the OP - Tarrsteps has as usual put everything down in a coherent, eloquent fashion. You've had lots of fantastic advice, though I have to say, none better than Ditch the Trainer. What on earth was he/she thinking :mad:.....Best of luck with what looks like a lovely horse :)

To Tarrsteps - next time you are coming to Edinburgh, let me know. I think my "quirky" youngster would like you ;)
 
Wow - SUCH wise words from TarrSteps, as usual - although much of it already alluded to in some shape or form by others on the thread, but she has pulled it together beautifully (I DO wish she would stop going on about singing pigs though, makes my inclined to go out and give it a go just to annoy her ;) :D )

Seriously, I think the point about not viewing a change of direction in due course as failure is an important one. It may very well be that your horse will take to eventing given time patience and skill. However, if in the fullness of time, that proves not to be the best thing for him, so be it - find him a better job with a happy heart, knowing you are doing the best thing for him. I've just had to sell on a little horse I put 2 years of my life into producing as an event horse: he sailed through the grades to Intermediate then made it very clear he'd changed his mind and didn't want to play any more. It was hard and I tried everything before I accepted his decision (he's SO talented, you see) but he's gone to be a SJer now and I suspect we are both happier for it ;)
 
Is your trainer a bit of a bully? I would never have allowed anyone to make my horse stay out on a x country course for 8 hours - I am so shocked by that. Your poor boy! If you do use that trainer again (and I'm hoping you won't) then take someone with you who will stand up to them and tell them when you have both had enough, if you can't tell the trainer yourself.
 
He looks like a lovely horse :)

You've only had him for 18 months, and in that time I think you've done quite a lot with him. As others have said, I would give him a break in the field for a couple of months, and basically just give him some 'chill out time'. I would then wait and see how things go from there, as the time off could do him a lot of good :)

It may be worth focusing on his dressage, as from the sound of things he does have potential in that sphere? If you finally decide that you do want to sell him, that could be an excellent 'bonus point' if he gets some good results.
 
Hedgewitch13 said:
Is your trainer a bit of a bully? I would never have allowed anyone to make my horse stay out on a x country course for 8 hours
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Hope your trainer doesn't charge you by the hour!!!

Seriously though, there's been a lot of good advice given, not least just take time, what's the rush. There's no set rule that says unless your horse is competing BE by 5 it'll never event. Some take longer than others to mature both physically and mentally
 
So much good advice on here! I also wouldnt give up just yet, frankie was 6 before he jumped his first show jumping clear round and the XC took even longer, he was 8 before he did his first BE event. We took alot of time building his trust and confidence and now he is the best XC horse I have sat on, straight as a die and bold as could be. Dont give up, take off some of the pressure, make it fun for you both and if he still isnt bold enough for the XC you will at the very least have a happier horse that should be easier to sell to a dressage or SJ home.
 
Saratoga said:
I agree, some youngsters take a lot of time to become physically and mentally ready for things like this. I'd maybe give him a couple of weeks break, bring him back up slowly, let him enjoy things again, don't rush him, and see where that gets you.

You obviously like him enough to try it, and he looks like a poppet!
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I agree

maybe just stick with dressage for a while (you may well learn to love it :D), hes only 4, some take longer than others to mature

Good luck :D
 
Oh dear, your poor horse! Your evil instructor bullied him for 8 hours when he was scared and stressed and I bet it still didn't work. I have had a few youngsters to break and bring on and while most of them were sweet and uncomplicated I have had a couple who were not- mostly the ones I got untouched were the best and the ones who have already been broken were the bad ones. At such an early stage in his training I would not force him to do things that he doesn't understand or want to do, I know this sounds like I'm a bunny hugger but if my current mare (ex racer) severely objects to something out jumping then I steer around it and go straight over something that she does like- that way we don't get into a fight and I can praise her for doing something right.

Sometimes we jump a few more things and then come back to the initial problem and we meet it well and she goes over- sometimes not but I think it's fair to say that I know she will go over it at some point. She is only 4 1/2 and I have at least 12 more years of good work to get out of her! I know that eventing isn't my aim like it is yours but I think bullying him is just going to turn him right off it. On the other hand- if my grown up horses have a fit about something I have no problem with bullying them- they're just being naughty (within reason!).

I suppose my point is that with a sensitive and intelligent horse, you have to approach the problem from a different angle, don't immediately get on the defensive and start a row, try walking away from the problem like you didn't want to do it anyway and do something fun to build up his trust. Get a new instructor, yours is a meanie. :(
 
I have one a bit like this. My five year old is HORRIBLE. She can go from being sweet and genuine to being a fire breathing dragon in one step, she had me off before i even got on on saturday! But although I am confident she will event, she also needs time, she's currently having a few weeks off jumping and has so far been doing a lot of things I wouldn't normally, including showing! I'm jumping her once a week at home over 80cms (our main problem is that she likes to hurl herself at fences and this is a little scary as i've been jumping disc in the ring with her but she's now trying to be a bit clever so we've gone back a step) Don't feel like its a bad thing, but take a back step. You should be going xc schooling over tiny fences, to get his nerve up, ideally with a friend who can provide a lead should you need one. He should be finding XC to be fun! not a battle! I agree 100% with who ever suggested hunting, I would also be doing a few sponsored rides to as all of these things will make for a more confident horse. My other mare who is a 6yr old warmblood wouldn't even go through mud, till last season we took her for a few days hunting, now she ploughs through like a cart horse and will jump anything xc!
 
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