Mylo Dilemma

[Ambers Echo]

Mylo is in such a good location - mixed grazing, loads of space, rested all winter, hedgerows to nibble, trees to shelter under, natural water source, just perfect. But Felix and Cass are not very nice to him. They are not running him ragged or bullying him, but they just seem indifferent to him. They won't play with him. They won't allow him to mutually groom them. Mylo is such a playful, friendly little guy - with Amber and with the oldie he was with after weaning, he was always playing and munching from the same pile and mutually grooming. Their little shadow. And it makes me so sad that he is just being told to go away when he tries to interact.

Should I move him back? Is he better with an old retiree who likes him than youngsters who don't much?

Am I overthinking this?

Always the third wheel

 

[lme]

How long has he been with them? It can take a while for a new younger bone to be integrated. Our older mares were horrid toour new 3yo for a few weeks. Wouldn't let her graze with them. She was eventually welcomed into the mini herd.

 

[ihatework]

Leave him! He is most definitely not better off with an oldie. He’ll integrate in due course

 

[coblets]

He's learning to respect other horses space and how to integrate into an established herd. He'll be playing with them soon enough.

 

[DizzyDoughnut]

Could you add a fourth one? I previously had 3 together and one was a loner so even in a big herd she'd get on with everyone but would mainly just do her own thing so it wasn't a problem that the other 2 played together more.
I've just tried having 3 together again with my newer ponies after I accidentally bought my youngsters little brother. It led to a bit of a kerfuffle, with one being jealous if the other 2 dared to talk to each other etc.

I'd give it a bit more time to see if they all settle together and if he was still the third wheel I'd try and find another youngster to come and be his friend.

 

[KittenInTheTree]

I'd be more inclined to add the old horse to the three youngsters as a nanny tbh.

 

[Ambers Echo]

That would be great but they are on different yards - the oldie isn’t mine! There is a older section B mare currently who could go possibly down there. She nannied Cass and Felix last year and belongs to Cass’ owner. That might work well. Though she is a very good doer and there’s a lot of grass there. She wintered out with Cass and Felix which was great.

The replies are reassuring that he’ll be ok. I feel like I did dropping my son off at school for the first time and some other kid pushed him over.

Im too emotionally invested! Soppy fool that I am.

 

[millitiger]

Tbh I do think 3 can be a crowd.

My big ginger wasn't welcomed into the herd with open arms by my older horse when he arrived with my 2.
Being honest, that horse still doesn't like him!
He would rather pretend big ginger didn't exist but if Thomas gets too close he will chase him off. This is 2 years later!

If you can add another more submissive type to the field I think i would try that.
I know they aren't humans and it's normal for a bit of bullying/posturing but I can't help feeling very sorry for horses at the bottom of the pecking order if they don't have a friend!

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yeh that’s my worry. We really tried to avoid this: Felix and Cass were weaned together then wintered together with the nanny mare. Then Cass needed surgery so they were separated. When Cass was recovered we put him and Mylo together first so they bonded before reintroducing Felix. They were very sweet together when they were on their own. But Felix and Cass recognised each other immediately and since then Mylo hasn’t had a look in.

Argh what to do for the best?!

 

[Michen]

Horse dynamics are so weird! At Boggles last barn he shared a fence line at the end with two geldings. After a week of multiple broken posts and too much gelding play, him and one of the geldings became “friends”, in the sense they’d stand along the fence together in a corner. The other gelding ended up at the complete other end of the paddock, in a corner on his own.

It was the weirdest thing especially as those two horses were actually in the paddock together and out 24/7, but when Bog was out, the other horse was outcast.

I’d still leave him though, it’s probably not a bad thing for a youngun to learn respect. But I know nothing about horses that young

 

[Ambers Echo]

The older horses taught him respect too. Amber was a real disciplinarian and so was the oldie. When they had had enough of him they flattened their ears and he instantly scarpered with much foal snapping. And politely requested to be allowed to re-approach by standing on the edge of some invisible boundary that seemed clear to them, and lowering his head and waiting for an invite in. But in between the 'leave us be annoying baby' vibes, they also offered him comfort (grooming) and played with him. He is not at all pushy. But now there is nothing but 'learning respect' - when he does not really seem to lack that anyway. We are introducing the older mare today. But she was a right grump with Felix and Cass which was no doubt good for them. A bossy matriarach who kept them in their place - but they also had each other to play with. I worry the new mare will just be a 3rd horse who tells Mylo to sod off, and he will still be lonely. I can't believe that is good for his well-being really.

Other foal raisers please feel free to correct me. I'd love to be wrong or over-worrying because I really don't want to move him again.

 

[Asha]

3 can be an odd number especially when a pair are already bonded. I think the introduction of a nanny would be ideal, as long as shes a nice nanny. It can take time for them to all get along/find there place . So i would stick it out a bit longer but keep your eye on them. The joys of youngsters .

 

[millitiger]

Fingers crossed it goes well @Ambers Echo
I am the same as you and would worry about him without anyone being friendly so I understand where you are.

You might find the nanny mare takes the pressure off the older pair from being dominant and they become a bit softer with him.

 

[paddy555]

. I can't believe that is good for his well-being really.

Other foal raisers please feel free to correct me. I'd love to be wrong or over-worrying because I really don't want to move him again.

His happiness would be everything for me. If he is happier with the older horse then I would put him back there. 3 is not a good number when 2 have already ganged up as friends.
I have had lots of young horses who were raised on their own with just an older kind and tolerant horse and they all turned out well.

My last one, 7mo foal who was nice to everyone was hated by the rest. They spent their time wanting to have a go at him. I put him in with an old mare who had had lots of foals. She looked after him and he ran round her and played. By the time he was 3 he went in with another horse who was at the bottom of the herd. That worked fine.
He looks so sad running along behind them but is he ever going to break into their group? Possibly when he is older. If they are not going to interact with him then it is pointless.

 

[Clodagh]

His happiness would be everything for me. If he is happier with the older horse then I would put him back there. 3 is not a good number when 2 have already ganged up as friends.
I have had lots of young horses who were raised on their own with just an older kind and tolerant horse and they all turned out well.

My last one, 7mo foal who was nice to everyone was hated by the rest. They spent their time wanting to have a go at him. I put him in with an old mare who had had lots of foals. She looked after him and he ran round her and played. By the time he was 3 he went in with another horse who was at the bottom of the herd. That worked fine.
He looks so sad running along behind them but is he ever going to break into their group? Possibly when he is older. If they are not going to interact with him then it is pointless.

This!
And I’d worry so much it would be for my peace of mind, as much as his.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I do really appreciate everyone's input, but now I have some very clear: 'he's better where he is', and some definite 'he's better moving back in with the kind oldie'. (Along with wait and see/ try the mare - which is where I am at the moment. But assuming she is not friendly either, where do I go from there?)

Would people with experience of this be wlling to expand on their advice? Or suggest any caveats to it? As in if you think he will integrate - how long do I give it. What are the risks of not having young companions? What are the risks of being lonely and left out long term. I had always assumed youngsters should be togteher. But he seemed happier with the friendly, kind oldie, before he moved to his current set up. The other option is to move Felix. Mylo was fine with Cass before Cass and Felix were reunited and immediately re-bonded.

 

[Gloi]

Sometimes it just takes time. So long as he isn't getting beaten up , I'd not worry too much but the older one in there too may help.

 

[paddy555]

I do really appreciate everyone's input, but now I have some very clear: 'he's better where he is', and some definite 'he's better moving back in with the kind oldie'. (Along with wait and see/ try the mare - which is where I am at the moment. But assuming she is not friendly either, where do I go from there?)

Would people with experience of this be wlling to expand on their advice? Or suggest any caveats to it? As in if you think he will integrate - how long do I give it. What are the risks of not having young companions? What are the risks of being lonely and left out long term. I had always assumed youngsters should be togteher. But he seemed happier with the friendly, kind oldie, before he moved to his current set up. The other option is to move Felix. Mylo was fine with Cass before Cass and Felix were reunited and immediately re-bonded.

why are you basing your decision on your opinion? what about his? he doesn't look happy, can he go back with Amber where he was happy? If so why not do it? What if they get seriously pissed off with him and give him a good hiding? what are you expecting him, as a very small youngster, to do to integrate with 2 larger friends who don't want to know. If he is with other youngsters to get used to being with a herd and he is lonely and left out what does that teach him? Not much in the way of socialising IMHO.

Give him a year and try again then.

I cannot see any risks of not having young companions. I have never had young companions for mine as I have only every had one youngster. They have always had companions but ones I have chosen for their friendliness and tolerance.

You seem to be creating a "herd" based upon who you want to be together. That is simply a collective noun for a group of horses. A proper horse herd is a group of mothers, aunts, foals, 1/2/3 yo's etc.

 

[tda]

I also would leave him there.
We have run on a filly and two geldings, all age (2), , two have been together since birth with one boy joining at 6 months. The filly has always been somewhat separate, she runs with them, and will play a bit, but the boys play rough/bitey face stuff and she doesn't go for that. On the yard however she will spend more time with one of the boys, the other boy is now happy mixing with a 3 &4 yr old.
Herd dynamics are fluid at that age, see how he goes

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I have always had youngsters in with an older sensible retired brood mare after weaning and for their first couple of years. Not sure if it is the answer here but I would definitely be happier if they had the influence of an older sensible sort who is used to looking after bolshy youngsters. It helps to put herd manners on them when they need it and if any of them get a bit above themselves which possibly the original two might be doing now.

 

[Ambers Echo]

why are you basing your decision on your opinion? what about his?

I am trying hard to avoid basing my decision just on my own - possibly under-informed - opinion. I don't want to anthropomophise, and I value the opinions of other posters experienced with youngstock. I am just trying to do what's best for him, and wanting input on what that is. As clearly opinion is very divided, even though everyone is offering their view on what is best for him.

You seem to be creating a "herd" based upon who you want to be together

That is not accurate. Felix was happy where he was and in retrospect I wish I had left him there - he has lost his space there now. But I brought him back because I thought it made perfect sense to have him with Mylo. If that does not work I will move one of them. Hence this post. I am not basing decisions on my own convenience but on what I genuinely believed would work well. But I am unsure now what really is best. Hopefully the new mare will help the situation. She is arriving this afternoon after work.

 

[Birker2020]

Mylo is in such a good location - mixed grazing, loads of space, rested all winter, hedgerows to nibble, trees to shelter under, natural water source, just perfect. But Felix and Cass are not very nice to him. They are not running him ragged or bullying him, but they just seem indifferent to him. They won't play with him. They won't allow him to mutually groom them. Mylo is such a playful, friendly little guy - with Amber and with the oldie he was with after weaning, he was always playing and munching from the same pile and mutually grooming. Their little shadow. And it makes me so sad that he is just being told to go away when he tries to interact.

Should I move him back? Is he better with an old retiree who likes him than youngsters who don't much?

Am I overthinking this?

Always the third wheel

It took ages for Lari to settle, he got really badly bullied at one point and was jumping out of the field, he's out in a mixed herd with 23 others.
I was literally about to pull the plug on it and bring him back 'home' when two new mares that had been together previously took to him and one was very opinionated and managed to get the other horses to leave him alone.
He rarely stands with them now and had made his own friends, although I have to admit he prefers his own company, he always has. That's why him being in an individual paddock was never a 'sad' thing for him.

 

[paddy555]

. I am not basing decisions on my own convenience but on what I genuinely believed would work well. But I am unsure now what really is best. Hopefully the new mare will help the situation. She is arriving this afternoon after work.

I'm not for one minute suggesting you are making decisions based on your convenience. It will be interesting to see how the mare changes t he dynamics. Possibly Felix and Cass will be better with another in charge.

I have always had youngsters in with an older sensible retired brood mare after weaning and for their first couple of years. Not sure if it is the answer here but I would definitely be happier if they had the influence of an older sensible sort who is used to looking after bolshy youngsters. It helps to put herd manners on them when they need it and if any of them get a bit above themselves which possibly the original two might be doing now.

I agree.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

How long has he been in with them?

 

[Asha]

I met legrandes owners at the weekend . She mentioned that boys tend to be mummy’s boys . Which from how you write about Mylo seems right .
Then to add to that I met your Felix when he was at my friends yard . He’s a fair size chunk .
So if the older mare doesn’t look after mylo and sort the older lads out I would look into other options .

Also .. just have to pick up on the point of managing a herd to suit your convenience ( which I know you’ve said you’re not ) but I can’t see what’s wrong with trying that . Surely we all should try and find the best regime that suits us and the horses ! Obviously if it doesn’t suit the horses then try something else . But at least give it a go

It’s hard integrating weanlings, so don’t beat yourself up .

 

[lme]

Introducing an older horse he knows / likes may help. We put our then 6 month old and his his dam in with our 2 and 3yo geldings (who had been together for over a year) along with another retired mare. The mares kept order and, as he got more confident, the smallest one spent more time with the older boys. We moved the mares after 3-4 months, by which time the boys were fine.

 

[Ambers Echo]

This is really interesting! Those who said the mare would change the dynamic - you were so right. We put her in and waited an hour to see what happened. Felix regressed INSTANTLY, back to appeasing gestures, foal snapping when she was anywhere near. Looked ridiculous: this tiny ancient Section B and this chunk of an IDx kowtowing to her! She immediately was clearly In Charge. Cass is 2nd in line so was approaching, occasionally challenging her (much good it did him - she was having none of it) and so Felix and Mylo were together more. By the time we left they were grazing in 2 pairs: Cass and Sugar, Felix and Mylo. And that is how it has stayed for grazing. Yesterday morning Mylo was lying down with Sugar standing over him. Is she protecting him? She has been perfectly gentle with him and quite stroppy with the adolescent thugs! Felix and Cass still play together more, (Sugar is not interested in playing) but Mylo has close company now most of the time. And as he really is quite playful I think that will happen over time.

When feeding their supplement in some grass pellets, Cass and Felix share a bucket despite having one each, and Mylo and Sugar are left alone to eat in peace.

Feeling much happier. Herd dynamics are fascinating!

 

[millitiger]

So pleased for you, what a relief!


I only knew/ suspected it would happen that way as I had the same dynamic in my herd.
If someone was being unnecessarily 'mean', or rough play was getting out of hand, my older, head of the herd, gelding would wander over with a hard stare.
He never had to snap or lift a leg at anyone but he seemed to have a way of saying "enough!" that they all understood.

 

[Asha]

so pleased its worked out. Good nannies are worth their weight in gold. My dear old Asha was the best, i never had to worry when she was with them.

Herd dynamics are fascinating, i can spend hours watching them.

Aria who is Ashas daughter is very good at being a nanny too. She really took our filly under her wing last year when she was weaned. It was wonderful to watch.

 

[lme]

That's brilliant news - its so nice watching a happy little herd