Mylo & Myka

I have followed this thread but not posted before - but after your latest post I thought I would pop in to say, first, how well it sounds like you are doing and it’s lovely to read a transparent record of your journey with a more complex young horse.

Second, a lot of what you have been saying does, to me, sound fairly typical of how some sensitive sports horses just ‘are’, particularly the WBs.

In my experience these horses don’t respond and progress in the often linear way that most normal riding horses do (even the competition bred ISH types), nor do they respond like TBs. Triggers can be tiny and seemingly insignificant and hard to spot but they are there! These are the same horses designed to half pass away from a flys weight of leg pressure! They are also often in pro homes where often the decision making is (rightly or wrongly) taken away from them - in some ways this makes their ridden lives easier because they learn to shut out all of the stimuli apart from their rider. Of course this isn’t the relationship that most of us want with our horses and even with strong pro riders, for the horses who don’t submit and hand decision making to their riders, it is not a pretty picture.

You mention others not understanding how complex she can be - it’s hard to explain how these horses respond to someone who hasn’t dealt with them. It’s great that you have such a knowledgeable support network and are giving her the time she needs. Good luck, please keep posting updates, it’s incredibly interesting to follow.
 
stangs said:
Does ‘drawing the hip to the mountain block’ refer to their mental state of coming over or is it about having them bent slightly towards the block?
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Great question — and I wanted to give this some proper thought because I wasn’t 100% sure myself at first. But I think I’ve got a better handle on it now!

There’s definitely a mental connection involved, but it’s also about testing the horse’s "draw" response — how well they understand and respond to that kind of cue.

In groundwork, there are two kinds of cues: push cues and draw cues.
  • A push cue asks the horse to move away from pressure — for example, using a flag, assertive energy, or body language.
  • A draw cue is the opposite: it invites the horse to step towards you or a particular point. The physical cue might be the same, but the intention and energy behind it are what change how the horse responds.
When it comes to mounting block work, draw cues are essential. You want the horse to bring its hip around 90 degrees toward the block to line herself up properly. That’s what “drawing the hip” refers to — mentally and physically connecting the horse to that spot and asking them to come toward it.

In the early stages, this is taught by pushing the hip over from the opposite side — often with a flag. Ie the flag is over the horse and 'pushing' the hip. But in real life, you’re not always going to have a flag that can reach that far side. So eventually, you need a draw cue the horse understands: using the flag or raised arm on the near side, and having the horse move toward it.

Myka was really good at being drawn. She actually seemed to enjoy it and was very responsive. I remember at a demo, she even started to draw towards Joe just because he was gesturing with his hands while talking! He laughed and said, “Not a draw, Myka,” and gently corrected her. It wasn’t harsh — just a sweet mistake on her part.

But today, it became clear she has developed a problem with draw cues. She was great with the connection work — matching energy, following my feet, responding to push cues. But she got noticeably anxious when we tried to draw her. It made me wonder has she been reprimanded before for responding to a draw cue when someone wasn’t actually asking for it? As this could easily be seen as bad manners on her part - crowding the handler by stepping into them. That kind of misunderstanding could really upset her, especially since she struggles when she feels she's done something “wrong” and doesn’t understand why.

Joe often says the little things matter because the are signs of bigger things. The trainer has been moving the mounting block slightly instead of drawing Myka to it. Which seemed like a minor thing. But I think that small change was a response to a deeper issue: Myka’s current discomfort with draw cues. The fact that she couldn’t “draw” calmly today — even far from the block, with no tack on — says a lot. She tensed up, held her breath, and got visibly worried.

So now, I know we need to take a few steps back. We’ll reintroduce the draw work slowly, away from the mounting block, focusing on making it soft, relaxed, and clear again. Once that’s going smoothly, then we’ll bring the mounting block back into the picture....... Slow steps. But I think these hiccups are useful if they lead to better understanding and more solid 'little' things. I am learning SO SO much. The subtlety of some of this is really interesting to me. And having a horse who is so good at showing me where the holes are is very helpful!
 
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nutjob said:
That's what I was told also, then after 3 months mine had gone down a gullet size and needed the flocking adjusted as it was lifting at the back. He's not particularly sensitive so had just put up with it. I'm nearly a year on now and he's still in the same saddle and has just had some minor adjustments since. Not back up to the original gullet size.


I probably would as well but I'm a horsachondriac or what ever is the technical term for someone who can think their horse into a career ending issue :rolleyes: .
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I believe it's called munchorsens by proxy.
 
I don't like to pigeon hole breeds/types too much, but yeah, Warmbloods aren't always the easiest of creatures and they're fine until they're not, and they can be very expressive about it. Mine was a heck of a lot of work. At. All. Times. He wasn't bred to be easy though, so his bloodlines weren't working in anyone's favor. My PRE's have been too, and they're incredibly sensitive, but it's different, for me.

I started with the drawing stuff and drawing to the mounting block very early with mine. He was probably about 2 when I introduced it. He has a busy and inquisitive mind so I felt as though I had to give him little "projects" that weren't physically demanding, but proved to be mentally fulfilling to him. It's still part of our "pre-flight checks" in that if something were off or he didn't draw in right, It'd give me pause.

Sometimes at new venues he will circle around me on the block a few times and then say he's ready. This doesn't offend me if he has to take a few extra seconds. It's also the "worst" thing that he does when we go somewhere new, so I'll take it, and it lessens slowly the more experience he has.

If he starts to move or shift when putting the saddle on I know something is not right. How much he opens his mouth for the bit to be placed in and how he does it dictates how he feels about being ridden that day too. Just small stuff. Some of it is "take note" others are, "change something now" depending on what it is.

We have to know our horses and their "fine" communications. The trainers do too, and it can be hard to have everyone on the same page, the same paragraph, the same setentence, the same word, and on the same letter. That's just sort of the human nature of things sometimes. Not necessarily a sign of a bad trainer, per say.

On the other hand, you can't go too nuts and think, OMG what did that left ear flick mean?! Or over analyze every time the horse blinks.

For the most part I find that young horses are pretty honest in a lot of ways. It can be rewarding, but it can be incredibly mentally taxing at times. That doesn't mean that you're doing it wrong though. I've probably shaved years off of my life and I'm waiting for the grey hairs to come through 🤣
 
Well that could have gone wrong... Myka was being eaten alive so I put on a fly rug that was slightly too big for her while a new one is on order. Somehow one leg strap got undone and wrapped itself around both a belly strap and a leg. I did not really notice so although I saw there were straps twisted round a back leg I thought if I released on both sides it would just unravel. But it didn't. She was in that quivering place of fear/panic that precedes an eruption - and there was no way that rug was coming off without being cut off or untied so that could have gone on a while. But she stayed just calm enough to let me help her. I was in a fairly precarious position slowly, gently untying the straps from round her back leg but she stayed completely still until it was done. I then moved her away and she let out a very deep breath and then yawned 4-5 times. I guess re-regulating her nervous system. So pleased with her but annoyed I got her into that position in the first place with a rug that was not quite the right size. Lesson learned.
 
We’ve all made questionable choices with the babies at one time or another, but great reaction from her and shows she is trusting you!

I remember ending up rolling around under a four year Beryl on my own out on a hack… Beryl just stood there watching the ridiculous human underneath her 🙈, incredible stupid bit we survived.

Sometimes things go wrong, and it’s just as important that they can also learn to deal with the not so perfect moments well.
 
I will say that my horse is reactive, but he's been in a situations where he's just waited and accepted human help vs freaking out. He's smart so I think that he has a sense of what's going on when he has to be saved by human(s).

It sounds like she trusts you enough to allow you to help and sees that you can get her out of a situation. Which is a great thing!
 
Thanks! That was another - do I admit this numpty sh1t post - but it's a all learning curve.....

For those asking about the draw - a couple of clips.

She is now drawing calmly. Hurray. This is all about he hip. I want her hip to step towards me - which it is although on the first clip she should be moving her front feet a bit less. But she does bring hip round so I let her have that as a good try.

Then I take it to the 'mounting block' but I used a fence so I am not just cueing her into standing by the block where she always stands, just from habit, but is reacting to a cue. She does not move her hip quite enough. I need 1 step more, so I reinforce the hand in the air cue with the flag cue and she respondeds that so flag was lowered and she got a pat.

I am reflecting on 'that will do' mentality. Joe being so finicikity about PRECISELY where she stood showed up an issue with draw which is hugely important in connection building. So yeh I'll stay pednatic for now!

 
New saddle day today. I’ve been doing groundwork and mounting block work but haven’t had a saddle to use in-hand and obviously haven’t ridden. So that’s 4 weeks without tack on. Not surprisingly she was back to being super suspicious. I’ve used a surcingle a few times and she even has a dim view of that.

Joe came today and we did a session before the saddle fitter. He got on bareback which made her tense up at first. But he worked through that. The only sign of tension was her not blinking. She is quite subtle….. Till she boils over and becomes very not subtle at all!

Then a rest in the stable then the saddle fit. Chose the one that fitted her best and did some groundwork in that. Again tension clear but she slowly relaxed. And finally when she was ok with saddle/no rider plus with bare-back ridden, we put them together and Joe got on. She was fine and I think she’d have been fine for me to get on too, but it seemed unnecessary. She’s not worn tack in a month. Why not just get her totally used to it again with groundwork and in hand walks. Then I’ll ride when Joe comes back in 4 weeks. It feels a bit 10 steps forward, 9.9 steps back but we have plenty of time. So it felt unnecessarily to risky push her that step more today and risk not ending on such a sweet note.

I was getting bored of groundwork so I experimented with Liberty. She’s good at it! We had circling, following, forward-back stepping and drawing. I’ve got done rubbish video from a phone on a fence that missed all the good bits. But gives you an idea.


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Well we are making progress. Sort of. I don’t want to paper over the saddle issue. I don’t want her just-about-accepting but genuinely relaxed. So it’s just time and patience I think.

Ooh it’s scary but I’m doing my best not to move!

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Was I good. Do I get a treat?

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Look trotting and everything!!

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Was a very brave girl? Can I have a hug?

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There's picking up from the mounting block - then there is doing it at liberty! I'd literally finished for the day and just left her loose as I put stuff away. On on a whim I put the mounting block behind her and raised an arm. She came straight over. So then I needed video evidence. Some dodgy filing/editing but she was fab!

 
Ambers Echo said:
There's picking up from the mounting block - then there is doing it at liberty! I'd literally finished for the day and just left her loose as I put stuff away. On on a whim I put the mounting block behind her and raised an arm. She came straight over. So then I needed video evidence. Some dodgy filing/editing but she was fab!

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Cute!

My little guy (unbacked due to weirdnesses) quite enjoys this game. We had done a few goes at our big mounting block and so one day I thought I’d try to see if it was just the position, or if he could generalise to me standing up on something else somewhere else. He got a bit keen and started his turn a bit early so had to sort himself out. Kind of reminded me of a car doing a J turn 😄


Not sure how it will go if I ask him to swap to line up the other way, as I think this is more of a trick/movement pattern he has learned, rather than responding to cues but given he has had so many issues with training and wellbeing, I’m just happy he has a ‘thing’ he can do that he finds an easy win 🙂
 
Joe lesson today. In fact 3. I basically hijacked the whole clinic…

It started with groundwork. Myka, as usual, was pretty good, but now and then she’d drop a shoulder, give a sulky look, as if to say “Do I really have to?” I would have let it slide, but Joe wasn’t having it. To him, she was flicking the v's, so he got a lot stricter than I ever would have dared, and suddenly, she softened. Her yields were soft, her expression lighter. Watching it unfold, I realized I’d been too gentle, settling for good enough and letting some ‘nope don’t wanna’ slide.

Then came saddling. I went through the steps, thinking she was fine. Joe kept telling me, “Stay there a little longer.” She seemed fine to me, but he pointed out the tiny things I missed: her breath held a little too long, her eye not blinking enough. At one point mid saddling someone knocked over a bottle. It was nothing, really. But Myka lost the plot briefly.

I love Warwick Schiller’s 13 rabbits metaphor: a horse can handle one rabbit, maybe five, even twelve, but then the 13th pushes them over the edge. That bottle was her 13th rabbit, and puahe dher over the edge. Her tension had been building quietly, almost invisibly. I just hadn’t seen it as she hides her stress. I’ll need to learn to read her far more finely, to catch the whispers before they turn into shouts.

Later, Joe and I talked about his approach. At times he was far stricter than me. At others, far softer and more patient. How do you know when to do which?

He broke it down simply:
  • When she resists yielding, it’s not fear. I can tell because she is braced and sticking her fingers up at me: Ears back, dropping a shoulder towards me, not moving away when we both know she understands these cues. So the cues need to escalate till the ‘no I’d rather ignore you’ becomes, ‘you know maybe I’ll just step that shoulder over’. Tbh I CAN see when she looks grumpy. I need to trust my gut on that.
  • When she reacts during saddling on the other hand, she tries to move away, holds her breath, shuts down. Then she’s worried. Soften, wait and give her time. This is where I struggle to see it, even when I am looking varefully. Joe says she is very very deceptive. And only ever has 1.3 rabbits in hand. So I am basically having a crash course in horse-emotional attunement. Which I hope is useful for the future when it's Mylo's turn.
Bottom line is that I need to be both firmer and softer as needed. It’s an art I’m only beginning to grasp - particularly in just how slow and patient to go till she is really truly ok, and not just coping with the nth rabbits.

But the biggest moment of the day wasn’t groundwork or saddling. It was getting back on after she launched my trainer back in June and has not been ridden since.

I’ve dreaded it for so long as I have been so scared of that next step. We worked carefully, one step at a time: groundwork until she was focused, groundwork again with the saddle, stirrups down, and only then the pre-flight checks at the mounting block and the drumroll moment.....

When I finally swung a leg over, sat up and realised she was cool with being horse-as-sofa, I lcried. Myka stood quietly, calmly. Joe guided me through each step: sitting still, rubbing her neck and rump, moving in the saddle, shifting my weight, letting my legs move against her sides without asking anything. We added soft flexions, a backup, some lateral work, serpentines, and at last, a pootle around the arena.

She felt exactly as she always has: calm, listening, responsive. She’s never put a foot wrong with either Joe or me on her back. I am sure that is because of Joe’s uncanny ability to read the wafer-thin line between when she’s fine, and when she’s about to unravel. That’s what I want to learn. One day!

Getting back on was more than just the next step in her training. It is about reclaiming trust: trust in Myka, and trust in myself. I am not there yet but feeling cautiously hopeful.

Onwards!

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When to be strict and when to be soft even varies horse to horse and the stage of learning as well in my book, so it's always a learning game.

Topaz is an internally anxious worrier that can give 'no clue' (she does you just have to pay attention to see them) that she is about to explode about the nth rabbit. Equally as she got older and more established I could be strict to bring her focus on me not her perceived rabbits, I could only do the strict part after a long time expanding her comfort zones!

Skylla is an outwards warning beacon, she tells everyone what she is feeling, no hidden rabbits generally, as she is so obvious to me when she's not happy I have always been 'too' soft in some ways, but she worries so much about getting stuff wrong, soft was right for her. Getting too strict would just result in mass hysteria...

Beryl, well she is a different kettle of fish! An absolute poppet to back, so horizontal about life, bold and curious I have had to work really hard to be 'strict' as I'm just not that sort of rider. She would amble along giving me the V's at everything if I didn't insist. She is full of her own importance and happy to take her own lead, she does have to be told actually the human is in charge, ridden and on the ground. She is in that sort of teenage phase (well out the other side really now) where after the initial backing and riding away she suddenly thought she knew it all, this can be as equally dangerous as the hidden nth rabbit as something will pull the rug from under her over inflated sense of confidence and actually she does still need me to help and be the comfort blanket.

We're all still learning and making mistakes as we go, but you're way ahead of some as you have excellent training from Joe and are willing to learn and listen, she is lucky to have you!
 
HufflyPuffly said:
When to be strict and when to be soft even varies horse to horse and the stage of learning as well in my book, so it's always a learning game.

Topaz is an internally anxious worrier that can give 'no clue' (she does you just have to pay attention to see them) that she is about to explode about the nth rabbit. Equally as she got older and more established I could be strict to bring her focus on me not her perceived rabbits, I could only do the strict part after a long time expanding her comfort zones!

Skylla is an outwards warning beacon, she tells everyone what she is feeling, no hidden rabbits generally, as she is so obvious to me when she's not happy I have always been 'too' soft in some ways, but she worries so much about getting stuff wrong, soft was right for her. Getting too strict would just result in mass hysteria...

Beryl, well she is a different kettle of fish! An absolute poppet to back, so horizontal about life, bold and curious I have had to work really hard to be 'strict' as I'm just not that sort of rider. She would amble along giving me the V's at everything if I didn't insist. She is full of her own importance and happy to take her own lead, she does have to be told actually the human is in charge, ridden and on the ground. She is in that sort of teenage phase (well out the other side really now) where after the initial backing and riding away she suddenly thought she knew it all, this can be as equally dangerous as the hidden nth rabbit as something will pull the rug from under her over inflated sense of confidence and actually she does still need me to help and be the comfort blanket.

We're all still learning and making mistakes as we go, but you're way ahead of some as you have excellent training from Joe and are willing to learn and listen, she is lucky to have you!
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Well done @Ambers Echo. Beryl sounds so like my lovely mare! I realised, often too late, that not checking her bossiness and enthusiasm could lead us into territory that she actually couldn't quite handle and would actually result in a loss of her wonderful confidence. I am happier to gently insist now that I know how that can go and she appreciates the safety rails a little more these days. Coupled with her naturally 'emotional' Welshness, she has and continues to be so interesting to train but I have stopped thinking that she can just get on with stuff and really do take her seriously these days!
 
palo1 said:
Well done @Ambers Echo. Beryl sounds so like my lovely mare! I realised, often too late, that not checking her bossiness and enthusiasm could lead us into territory that she actually couldn't quite handle and would actually result in a loss of her wonderful confidence. I am happier to gently insist now that I know how that can go and she appreciates the safety rails a little more these days. Coupled with her naturally 'emotional' Welshness, she has and continues to be so interesting to train but I have stopped thinking that she can just get on with stuff and really do take her seriously these days!
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Sounds very similar! I think mares you have to be more strategic in the strict approach anyway, so I love gently insisting, spot on!
 
Yes - it’s the subtleties of what different behaviours mean that I am hoping to get better at. And even when I can tell she’s grumpy I worry about why. But that post by FrankieDuck (?) on the Why of horse behaviour’ thread was helpful: Joe says Myka is very well educated on the ground so that has to be factored in. Expectations are higher when a horse knows the job better. Plus the resistance makes sense because it IS easier to continue circling than yielding a shoulder. They are heavy and hard to move. And - linking back to FD’s point, assertive insistence by Joe led to rapid improvements. If, despite increasing the pressure, she remained stuck then he would rethink why she might be saying no. But horses say no to putting a little more effort in if they have learned they can. And he doesn’t tolerate the horse trying to push him around with grumpy expressions and crowding him either. This was subtle too. She just stepped into him slightly and ears went back. But that’s hugely meaningful to a horse. Left unchecked that can turn into turning quarters at you, even to kicking/biting if the horse is trying to dominate. And actually they are happier with the human in charge. Joe looks for changes in expression as much as changes in behaviour. And she was much softer and happier after being put in her place a couple of times.
 
Yes- and applies to kids too!

It's the feel/understanding that is so hard to get right. When my kids were defiant they were told off but sometimes the way they were expressing defiance was different or they melted down after being told off and then I'd switch to thinking 'there's something wrong'. When Myka looks resentful I assume I am doing something wrong - confusing her or whatever. Or something is hurting. I don't have that same instinctive awareness of when it's a 'me' problem: I need to slow down or reset, clarify, ask for less and reward more, etc) and when it's a 'her' problem: She knows what I want and is perfectly capable of giving it to me but is choosing an easier option for now.
 
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