Myth or Truth. Polo mints contain banned substance?

To the very best of my knowledge there is no problem in feeding polos and competing from a drug testing POV. I have competed FEI for many years and have been tested three time with three different horses and polos/extra strong mints are part of our regime as they are for many riders. I know one rider whose helpers used to give a particular horse a whole packet just before his dressage test to ease some teeth/grinding issues and produce lots of lovely white saliva - this horse was placed at Badminton many times and must have been tested. Urban myth I think.
 
I would imagine menthol would flag as a topical prep but unless you're rubbing a whole case of Polos on your horse's legs then I can't see it being an issue.

Gamebird has a point, re this not being all about FEI lists. And no, the other disciplines and levels do not all use that list so if there is a reason for concern check with the relevant governing body.

The part that bugs me is the whole point is INTENT. Okay, the FEI has been heavy handed in this area but generally people who get caught, with a few exceptions, get caught because they think the rules don't apply to them! There are also all sorts of things that the cannot test reliably for that are also against the rules and they rely on people's honour to uphold those rules. As I am fond of saying, technically calmers contravene the rules but people use them blithely, not because they don't know they're against the rules, but because they know they can't get caught!
 
TarrSteps said:
Gamebird has a point, re this not being all about FEI lists. And no, the other disciplines and levels do not all use that list so if there is a reason for concern check with the relevant governing body.
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Tbf though, the thread/question wasn't actually about the FEI, it was simply asking if polo mints contained a banned substance for competition horses (unspecified sphere and unspecified organising body).
 
Capriole said:
Tbf though, the thread/question wasn't actually about the FEI, it was simply asking if polo mints contained a banned substance for competition horses (unspecified sphere and unspecified organising body).
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I think its because in a later post I put that I was aiming to compete next year in a 1* and was looking into things so can understand the response. I do understand that BE, BD and BS all follow dope testing plans and i already am super paranoid about meds getting into a competing horse etc (esp as the other one is always broken) but I started the post as I had been told about polo's recently and I wanted clarification.
 
Many racehorses are given polos or extra strong mints including Gold Cup winners so presumably they don't test positive under Jockey Club rules and 4* horses have also been given them without problems. Maybe if you fed them in industrial quantities it would be different but some shouldn't hurt.
 
TarrSteps said:
Gamebird has a point, re this not being all about FEI lists. And no, the other disciplines and levels do not all use that list so if there is a reason for concern check with the relevant governing body.
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All the organisations that run under BEF Anti-Doping and Medication Control rules (i.e. BD, BS and BE for sure) use the FEI Banned and Controlled substances list. The guidelines for drug testing are similar to those used by FEI but not identical.

http://www.bef.co.uk/Information_fo...uine_Anti_Doping_&_Controlled_Medication.html

ETA in addition to BE, BD and BS, BEFAR is also run by the Pony Club, BHS (And therefore BRC), British Equestrian Vaulting, British Carriagedriving, British Reining, Endurance GB, RDA, British Horseball, Mounted Games Association, UK Polocrosse Association. Therefore most equestrian competition disciplines in the UK are run under the FEI substance list.
 
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You can't also rely on the 'xxxx has been fed that for many years and been tested and was ok so it must be ok' the tests improve each year and stuff that wasn't picked up on before can now be detected.

There are many products that are 'ok to use becuase they don't show up on a dope test' that will suddenly show up when a new test is developed.
 
khalswitz said:
All the organisations that run under BEF Anti-Doping and Medication Control rules (i.e. BD, BS and BE for sure) use the FEI Banned and Controlled substances list. The guidelines for drug testing are similar to those used by FEI but not identical.

http://www.bef.co.uk/Information_fo...uine_Anti_Doping_&_Controlled_Medication.html

ETA in addition to BE, BD and BS, BEFAR is also run by the Pony Club, BHS (And therefore BRC), British Equestrian Vaulting, British Carriagedriving, British Reining, Endurance GB, RDA, British Horseball, Mounted Games Association, UK Polocrosse Association. Therefore most equestrian competition disciplines in the UK are run under the FEI substance list.
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I KNOW that they all, bar racing, use the FEI list. Believe me, it is something that I deal with every day. What I was trying to say is that most people seem to think that testing is confined to the FEI levels of the different disciplines and don't worry about it much lower down. For instance I know someone that sedated their horse to clip it the other week, two days before a BE event and couldn't even see why it might be a problem. Most people that do BE90/low level BS/BD don't even have dope testing on their radar. Horses are tested at much lower levels than most people realise and it makes me mad that they only start to think about competing 'cleanly' (whether that be by intent or by contamination) when they reach a certain level in the sport. The rules (and the testing) apply from the bottom up.
 
Gamebird said:
I KNOW that they all, bar racing, use the FEI list. Believe me, it is something that I deal with every day. What I was trying to say is that most people seem to think that testing is confined to the FEI levels of the different disciplines and don't worry about it much lower down. For instance I know someone that sedated their horse to clip it the other week, two days before a BE event and couldn't even see why it might be a problem. Most people that do BE90/low level BS/BD don't even have dope testing on their radar. Horses are tested at much lower levels than most people realise and it makes me mad that they only start to think about competing 'cleanly' (whether that be by intent or by contamination) when they reach a certain level in the sport. The rules (and the testing) apply from the bottom up.
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I think, actually, it was a shot at my comment that you should not assume every discipline uses the FEI lists. It does seem to be more or less the case in the UK, to be fair, but it's not necessarily true elsewhere.

Which makes the above point even more valid! We had a thread run not that long ago about giving horses antibiotics by injection before competing and half the thread went by before someone pointed out that some antibiotics are injected with an local anaesthetic because they are so uncomfortable. Obviously this will show on a test.

Even my calmer rant has some practical interest. Some calmers do not list all ingredients and are a bit cagey about giving them out. Check before you buy!

Is everyone out checking their hedgerows for periwinkle? ;)
 
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Gamebird said:
I KNOW that they all, bar racing, use the FEI list. Believe me, it is something that I deal with every day. What I was trying to say is that most people seem to think that testing is confined to the FEI levels of the different disciplines and don't worry about it much lower down. For instance I know someone that sedated their horse to clip it the other week, two days before a BE event and couldn't even see why it might be a problem. Most people that do BE90/low level BS/BD don't even have dope testing on their radar. Horses are tested at much lower levels than most people realise and it makes me mad that they only start to think about competing 'cleanly' (whether that be by intent or by contamination) when they reach a certain level in the sport. The rules (and the testing) apply from the bottom up.
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I do agree there. Personally, competing at all, even unaff, I am very aware of what I have fed my horse. Our yard isn't even super competitive and yet we have hygiene and contamination protocols that we all follow. Even outside of the idea of dope testing the idea of my horse being accidentally exposed to a drug via feed or contamination of other horse's drugs is anathema.

The number of people that compete lower levels on bute, or acp horses who are tricky, I am pretty shocked by. Regardless of testing it goes against both the spirit and the letter of the rules. If they get caught I kind of feel it is their own fault - the rules are there for anyone to read, and ignorance is no excuse for rule-breaking - which in the lower levels this is what it often is.
 
ester said:
I guess most people at the bottom have less to lose though, hence less bothered about being uber clean etc.
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But surely the potential for a ban for several years and a couple of grands worth of fine would be fairly significant to most amateurs?

Whilst I take Tarrsteps' point about intention, as we all know, ignorance is no defence.
 
TarrSteps said:
I think, actually, it was a shot at my comment that you should not assume every discipline uses the FEI lists. It does seem to be more or less the case in the UK, to be fair, but it's not necessarily true elsewhere.

Which makes the above point even more valid! We had a thread run not that long ago about giving horses antibiotics by injection before competing and half the thread went by before someone pointed out that some antibiotics are injected with an local anaesthetic because they are so uncomfortable. Obviously this will show on a test.

Even my calmer rant has some practical interest. Some calmers do not list all ingredients and are a bit cagey about giving them out. Check before you buy!

Is everyone out checking their hedgerows for periwinkle? ;)
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Sorry I didn't mean to sound rude, I promise! Just trying to explain why all the fuss about FEI... not because I think that's the only place you get tested, but because it's pretty much their rules that get followed by everybody...

And I agree about calmers. Even if the ingredients don't specifically state something illegal, the spirit of the clean sport rules is being broken. BHA rules would certainly disallow them! I admit I have used calmers in the past but NEVER to compete as I agree with you - I've used them to get my very sharp horse used to riding in groups of horses, when I have trailered out for lessons etc, but in a long period with no competing, and he won't have had a calmer for six weeks prior to his first comp date.
 
tarrsteps I wasn't thinking not counting if you don't win per se. More that if I am tottling off to do my BRC area champs once a year I'm not likely to get too anal about cross contamination/feeding polos. If my horse were to be tested positive and we got even a life ban from BRC it wouldn't be the end of my world.

Whereas if you are a pro... who makes a living from competing the repercussions are much greater.

(eta not talking giving a drug and not knowing it is against rules here, just polos/cross contamination sort of level!)
 
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TarrSteps said:
I think in many cases they genuinely don't know. But yes, lots of people think cheating doesn't really count unless you win.
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Gamebird said:
I KNOW that they all, bar racing, use the FEI list. Believe me, it is something that I deal with every day. What I was trying to say is that most people seem to think that testing is confined to the FEI levels of the different disciplines and don't worry about it much lower down. For instance I know someone that sedated their horse to clip it the other week, two days before a BE event and couldn't even see why it might be a problem. Most people that do BE90/low level BS/BD don't even have dope testing on their radar. Horses are tested at much lower levels than most people realise and it makes me mad that they only start to think about competing 'cleanly' (whether that be by intent or by contamination) when they reach a certain level in the sport. The rules (and the testing) apply from the bottom up.
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I think there is also an acceptance of deliberate use.....I know of someone who purposefully gave a horse bute the day before an affiliated competition just to be sure the horse wasn't going to be at all stiff the day of the competition. I doubt the possibility of testing was even considered, or if it was I expect it was dismissed as highly improbable....
 
ester said:
If my horse were to be tested positive and we got even a life ban from BRC it wouldn't be the end of my world.
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Just to give people an idea, two horses who recently tested positive in BD young horse classes were fined £1500 and £1750. That's not small change. I wouldn't be able to pay it without selling the horse.
 
I don't know if they have transparent lists of bans and fines here but years ago I found a list from my "country of origin" and it made for interesting reading. A surprising number of people had got caught and the rest of us never knew a thing about it, they just took a little holiday or were "out with an injury". Even the FEI lists can make interesting reading as certainly, not every infraction makes the papers. I don't think people should assume it only happens at the top levels!
 
TarrSteps said:
I don't know if they have transparent lists of bans and fines here but years ago I found a list from my "country of origin" and it made for interesting reading. A surprising number of people had got caught and the rest of us never knew a thing about it, they just took a little holiday or were "out with an injury". Even the FEI lists can make interesting reading as certainly, not every infraction makes the papers. I don't think people should assume it only happens at the top levels!
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I've noticed a small write-up in the relevant discipline magazine (which I think is where GB got her info on the most recent fines from) from time to time, and there's also sometimes a small mention in H&H. Other than that I'm not sure it's widely publicised.

Gamebird said:
Just to give people an idea, two horses who recently tested positive in BD young horse classes were fined £1500 and £1750. That's not small change. I wouldn't be able to pay it without selling the horse.
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Exactly - hence my point above!
 
TarrSteps said:
As I am fond of saying, technically calmers contravene the rules but people use them blithely, not because they don't know they're against the rules, but because they know they can't get caught!
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I think people use them 'blithely' as there are FEI legal ones. If it says on the pack it is FEI legal people are going to take assurance from that. You are right they aren't going to 'get caught' as they have not actually done anything wrong. I know you are going to come back with you are altering a horses a nature by feeding it a calmer, but where do you draw the line? You can alter a horses performance with how much water you give a horse, or if you feed it oats for more energy - that is enhancing a horses performance too.
 
No not small change but I still think different to limiting your income for the duration of a ban/repercussions of sponsorship owners etc etc if you are pro
 
dieseldog said:
I think people use them 'blithely' as there are FEI legal ones. If it says on the pack it is FEI legal people are going to take assurance from that. You are right they aren't going to 'get caught' as they have not actually done anything wrong. I know you are going to come back with you are altering a horses a nature by feeding it a calmer, but where do you draw the line? You can alter a horses performance with how much water you give a horse, or if you feed it oats for more energy - that is enhancing a horses performance too.
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You are totally wrong there is no such thing as an FEI legal calmer .The manufacturer is misleading riders if they say their product is FEI legal and they merely mean there is nothing that can be detected on a test.It is totally illegal to give a horse in FEI(and indeed at BE) competition any substance with the intention of altering its going even if said substance is totally useless. It is the intent that is against the rules.This rule was brought in to cover any eventuality and is very similar to the racing approach to misuse of substances.It is cheating the same as any other offence
 
^ That. :)

It is technically illegal to withhold water, too, although I know it gets done and there is no way to detect it.

Part of the fuss re the doping scandal in cycling was because the testing, temporarily at least, won the arms race and they caught people using procedures and medications that had previously been difficult or impossible to detect. This is also what happened, by the way, with Reserpine. The stuff was around for years but tricky to test for. When the test came in there were a flurry of detections in the US and then people wised up and largely stopped using it to cheat.
 
popsdosh said:
It is totally illegal to give a horse in FEI(and indeed at BE) competition any substance with the intention of altering its going even if said substance is totally useless. It is the intent that is against the rules.This rule was brought in to cover any eventuality and is very similar to the racing approach to misuse of substances.It is cheating the same as any other offence
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In that case it is illegal to feed your horse any form of hard feed/haylage/ anything really - how far are you going to take it? People feed different feeds and feed companies develop different feeds to alter a horses going.

If it is written on the packs that they are FEI legal I think the rider has done due diligence and chosen something that to the best of their knowledge is legal to feed their horse. If they got drug tested and it was traced back to the calmer and they suffered a loss because of it they would have a good case against the manufacturer?
 
dieseldog said:
If they got drug tested and it was traced back to the calmer and they suffered a loss because of it they would have a good case against the manufacturer?
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No. FEI rules state that it is the competitors responsibility to know and accept the consequences of anything they give their horses. You can't blame the manufacturer, just accept that that is where your contamination has been and that you took the risk in feeding it.

Also all these feeds/products all say in small print that there can be risk of contamination and that they cannot be held liable. They know the game too well. It's up to the rider.
 
dieseldog said:
In that case it is illegal to feed your horse any form of hard feed/haylage/ anything really - how far are you going to take it? People feed different feeds and feed companies develop different feeds to alter a horses going.

If it is written on the packs that they are FEI legal I think the rider has done due diligence and chosen something that to the best of their knowledge is legal to feed their horse. If they got drug tested and it was traced back to the calmer and they suffered a loss because of it they would have a good case against the manufacturer?
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Please read the FEI rules it is very clearly stated that you cannot administer calmers!!!! Just administering them is an offence not the actual presence in the system. BE also have this rule !
 
This is also germane to the question of testing. The reason calmers and other 'natural' remedies have not been subjected to the rigorous testing consumers sometimes call for is it's in no one's best interests. One of two things is going to happen - the preparation will be found to be benign or it will be found to have an effect. The former is obviously an issue for marketing, the latter for licensing and competition use.

The FEI rules are written with this in mind. The onus is not on them to test every possible substance - if someone even.THINKS.it might work, it's technically banned.

In reality, of course, people will keep on as they are but it raises some interesting questions considering some of the things people are quick to label 'cheating'.
 
Agree its all down to peoples perception of cheating .In reality what is the difference between somebody using a calmer or using for example Reserpine as they are both after the same ends.If you allow the use of calmers to keep a horse level headed do you then have to allow Bute to keep somebody elses horse level or for that matter PSD surgery.All these are infringements of the rules but some people choose to ignore them!
 
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