Myth or Truth. Polo mints contain banned substance?

Just to help here is the FEI ruling.
3. The use of any herbal or natural product to affect the performance of a horse or pony in a calming (tranquillising) manner or an energising (stimulant) manner is expressly forbidden by the FEI regulations. The use of a calming product during competition may also have important safety consequences.
 
One top rider always says if it works it's not allowed!! If you don't want to risk getting caught, don't use anything. However a few polos fed as a treat don't have any intent!!
 
TarrSteps said:
It is technically illegal to withhold water, too, although I know it gets done and there is no way to detect it.
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It does indeed get done, but FEI stewards are perhaps not as naive as some people assume, amd are getting increasingly proactive. At Weston Park, the (very nice and very switched on) FEI steward was patrolling the stables late evening on the nights prior to the dressage days and, on finding several horses without water, summoning the connections to rectify the situation. She was also quietly patrolling on XC night to see what was going on and to make sure horses got the necessary peace to rest.
 
popsdosh said:
Just to help here is the FEI ruling.
3. The use of any herbal or natural product to affect the performance of a horse or pony in a calming (tranquillising) manner or an energising (stimulant) manner is expressly forbidden by the FEI regulations. The use of a calming product during competition may also have important safety consequences.
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So feeding your horse is out. As food is full of natural things and herbs. You feed it with the intent of affecting the horses performance. Take table dancers example of polos before a dressage test. That is cheating as they are doing it with the intent of changing the horses performance. I used to feed one of mine oats as he was really slow. That was with intent and therefore illegal.
 
khalswitz said:
No. FEI rules state that it is the competitors responsibility to know and accept the consequences of anything they give their horses. You can't blame the manufacturer, just accept that that is where your contamination has been and that you took the risk in feeding it.

Also all these feeds/products all say in small print that there can be risk of contamination and that they cannot be held liable. They know the game too well. It's up to the rider.
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I think you take your ban and fine and Sue the manufacturer for you r loss. People aren't feeding calmers because they want to cheat, but because they believe they are doing nothing wrong as per the packaging.
 
dieseldog said:
I think you take your ban and fine and Sue the manufacturer for you r loss. People aren't feeding calmers because they want to cheat, but because they believe they are doing nothing wrong as per the packaging.
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Apart from it is cheating. And the FEI stance is that it is up to the rider, not the feed company.

Anyone saying a calmer is FEI approved is lying, it just won't come up positive on a drug test.
 
khalswitz said:
Apart from it is cheating. And the FEI stance is that it is up to the rider, not the feed company.

Anyone saying a calmer is FEI approved is lying, it just won't come up positive on a drug test.
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Understand what you are saying, but when it says on the packaging and advertising that it is fei legal why would you not believe them? If they are all lying like you say then you would have a pretty good case against them for the losses you have suffered if you did test positive.
 
dieseldog said:
Understand what you are saying, but when it says on the packaging and advertising that it is fei legal why would you not believe them? If they are all lying like you say then you would have a pretty good case against them for the losses you have suffered if you did test positive.
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Because you would have to look at the exact wording they use. These companies aren't daft enough to make bold claims like that when they could be sued.
 
dieseldog said:
Understand what you are saying, but when it says on the packaging and advertising that it is fei legal why would you not believe them? If they are all lying like you say then you would have a pretty good case against them for the losses you have suffered if you did test positive.
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You dont seem to comprehend that you dont need to test positive just using one is an offence so you cant exactly sue them for that could you!!!
 
The supplements don't say FEI approved (generally). They are normally worded along the lines of 'Does not contain FEI prohibited substances'. There is a subtle difference.

It's an interesting debate though.

Taking the woding quoted by posdosh: 3. The use of any herbal or natural product to affect the performance of a horse or pony in a calming (tranquillising) manner or an energising (stimulant) manner is expressly forbidden by the FEI regulations. The use of a calming product during competition may also have important safety consequences.

Genuine question - what if you wanted to feed your horse a 'calmer' not with any desire to calm/tranquilise but rather to increase and aid their focus? i.e. less distracted/spooky?

Take feeding a packet of polos just prior to a dressage test - with the aim to increase salivation under the illusion this will make the horse better to the contact and improve performance?

And while I'm on the subject - does anyone know if there is a list of allowed/banned substances a rider can take them selves?
 
Re the rider list, yes, of course there is.

Jonathon Millar (son of Ian) is currently banned indefinitely as he is taking a medication for, if I remember correctly, early symptoms of MS that's on the list. They have tried to get him reinstated on the grounds that he is not taking it for performance enhancement and his doctor has confirmed it does not affect him at the current dosage, it's only to delay progression of the disease, but the FEI doesn't see it that way.

I know other people who have been prescribed pain medication, beta blockers etc for valid medical reasons with make it impossible for them to compete.
 
Where do I find such a list? Am I being a bit thick?
The clean sport website seems to indicate it is specifically for horses.
 
I struggle with the FEI site at the best of times, I can't face it on the phone, but I'll look later.

My friends who have been on teams have had to pee in a cup. I even know of someone who got caught in a random squad test and was given a warning. He never made the team so it went under the radar but they were pretty clear with him that, if it got that far, he could expect to pee in a LOT of cups! :D
 
ihatework said:
Genuine question - what if you wanted to feed your horse a 'calmer' not with any desire to calm/tranquilise but rather to increase and aid their focus? i.e. less distracted/spooky?
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I would say still means improving performance.

However if you are feeding magnesium to address a deficiency in the diet? That happens to cause them to be sharp and spooky? That is a grey line between improving feeding to best balance the diet and feeding for performance enhancement.
 
popsdosh said:
You dont seem to comprehend that you dont need to test positive just using one is an offence so you cant exactly sue them for that could you!!!
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I think you could as manufacturers are making out that it is OK to feed their products as top Olympic horses are using it to win gold medals http://www.equifeast.com/English/Equifeast/WhatCustomersSay/dressage-laura-bechtolsheimer

Surely Laura should have her medals taken off her as she clearly says in that endorsement that she is feeding the supplement to calm her horse. If she is allowed to win gold medals whilst feeding it to her horse why wouldn't a normal person think it is OK to feed it to theirs too.
 
Really interesting thread!

It seems to me that the wording of a lot of the rules is vague/problematic, and I wonder if that is to give whatever body decides if there has been an infraction some sort of wriggle room...as khalswitz pointed out earlier, the reason magnesium-based calmers are supposed to work is because they address a magnesium insufficiency: if the horse has enough magnesium, the calmer won't work. Does it then all come down to intent? E.g. a rider who is aware of this and is supplementing magnesium to address a perceived dietary imbalance is not culpable, but a rider who is not aware, but who is using the calmer with the specific intent of gaining an advantage in competition, is culpable?

Where is the line drawn? As others have pointed out, we all give things to our horses or do things to them in order to (hopefully) improve performance. That's more or less the point of adopting a particular training regime, choosing among various (FEI-legal) foodstuffs and supplements, and the type of tack/gear we use. So where should the ethical line be drawn? Why are we banning substances at all? Are we specifically trying to curtail practices or substances that are harmful to the animal (possibly in the long term), when used in the necessary quantities?

Another example is the current debate surrounding prascend/pergolide...
 
spookypony said:
Really interesting thread!

It seems to me that the wording of a lot of the rules is vague/problematic, and I wonder if that is to give whatever body decides if there has been an infraction some sort of wriggle room...as khalswitz pointed out earlier, the reason magnesium-based calmers are supposed to work is because they address a magnesium insufficiency: if the horse has enough magnesium, the calmer won't work. Does it then all come down to intent? E.g. a rider who is aware of this and is supplementing magnesium to address a perceived dietary imbalance is not culpable, but a rider who is not aware, but who is using the calmer with the specific intent of gaining an advantage in competition, is culpable?

Where is the line drawn? As others have pointed out, we all give things to our horses or do things to them in order to (hopefully) improve performance. That's more or less the point of adopting a particular training regime, choosing among various (FEI-legal) foodstuffs and supplements, and the type of tack/gear we use. So where should the ethical line be drawn? Why are we banning substances at all? Are we specifically trying to curtail practices or substances that are harmful to the animal (possibly in the long term), when used in the necessary quantities?

Another example is the current debate surrounding prascend/pergolide...
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Great post. :D
 
ihatework said:
Fantastic, thank you. I was getting concerned the copious amounts of painkillers I take might be a bit of a party killer, as it is all okay :)
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I am giggling a bit at the thought of telling my doc to remember I'm an athlete as suggested :D

Interesting to read that beta blockers are only listed as prohibited for some sports (not equestrian) as they came up earlier (and would be relevant to me).
 
ester said:
I am giggling a bit at the thought of telling my doc to remember I'm an athlete as suggested :D

Interesting to read that beta blockers are only listed as prohibited for some sports (not equestrian) as they came up earlier (and would be relevant to me).
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If I told my doctor I was an athlete, he would probably take one look at me and refer me on to the mental health team!!
 
Really interesting thread - they've started dope testing at RDA Nationals in recent years too, which is a competition technically run under FEI rules...
 
I checked a few years ago for diazepam, which I was on at the time for my back, and that was allowed. Crazy! Especially as it works very well as an anxiolytic so would be a very good drug to take for anyone who was nervous/pressured about the competition.
 
dieseldog said:
I think you could as manufacturers are making out that it is OK to feed their products as top Olympic horses are using it to win gold medals http://www.equifeast.com/English/Equifeast/WhatCustomersSay/dressage-laura-bechtolsheimer

Surely Laura should have her medals taken off her as she clearly says in that endorsement that she is feeding the supplement to calm her horse. If she is allowed to win gold medals whilst feeding it to her horse why wouldn't a normal person think it is OK to feed it to theirs too.
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Well the point about Laura using a calmer to win an Olympic medal seems to being blithely ignored maybe it's incomprehensible.
 
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