Naked showjumping

My understanding is double bridles are for 'light' and subtle communication. What is light or subtle about adding draw reins onto it? It might be a moment in time but in the next moment the draw reins are still there and I guess still used to pull the horses mouth. What other use of draw reins is there then that reins and good hands can't achieve? The photo to me shows a horse controlled by force rather than a well schooled horse with rider working and communicating as a team.
Restrictive nose bands are often used to stop a horse resisting the bit. Tbh, who wouldn't want to resist a rider taking a pull with that combination! The leverage able to be applied with draw reins greatly increases the force on the horse involved.

I'm afraid I will never see it any other way than force and coercion. Riding and horsemanship at any level shouldn't involve force that causes pain, distress, or physical and psychological problems.

If the fact that someone wins or is famous leads them to be something to aspire to and always right and above criticism, lets not forget there are many unsavory characters who are famous and who have 'won'. I don't feel fame or winning alone is a safe guide to true skill and empathy with the horse.

Just google effects of bits, draw reins and obstructing/collapsing the trachea by over flexing the neck...

Here's some show jumping specific stuff. http://www.flairstrips.com/education-and-research/education-articles/
 
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What has fitness got to do with training? A fit horse is very able to be trained lightly. There are many dressage riders out there riding fit stallions with double bridles lightly and with finesse...

Ps. A 'wired' horse is however a different matter. That is not imo the same as a fit horse.
All horses are strong if we choose to force them and fight with them...
 
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As someone who competes (BE & BSJA) in a dressage-legal snaffle, cavesson noseband and no martingale - I agree with the theory behind this, I hate seeing horses over-bitted with too many gadgets. I think the issue is more important at the lower levels though, people who do it just because it makes them look cool or something or doing it purely because so and so told them to. I cant really argue with the top level riders, they should (and generally do!) know what they're doing.

With regards to fitness, I dont see why a fit horse should be any stronger / difficult than any other. Just because its fit, it should still have manners and be trained to respond properly (without the need for jumping to stronger bits etc.).
 
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Just because this horse has that amount on its head does not mean that the rider is heavy in their hand in anyway shape or form. I would much rather see that then a horse With a less server bit in having its back teeth pulled out. Every horse is different...unfortunately we can not ride them all in a snaffle and untill you have ridden and competed at that level you have NO experience to back up what you're saying. So don't bother. I have looked on the 'naked horse' website and it states that they would like people to send pictures of them in walk trot canter , over a pole or a jump in a head collar? Well let's see you jump that horse round a grand prix track in a head collar!
 
Temptation said:
I have looked on the 'naked horse' website and it states that they would like people to send pictures of them in walk trot canter , over a pole or a jump in a head collar? Well let's see you jump that horse round a grand prix track in a head collar!
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Yes, so far there are a scattering of photos of novices cantering around a school or popping a 2' jump without reins. Not quite the same thing as competing at international level :rolleyes: although a great skill for novices to learn.
 
Isn't one of the H&H forum 'players' favourite line of thought....

'i hate it when people think they know my horse better than me'...

Having read some of these posts... Is this not the case, people judging what the horse it like to ride/compete/handle (etc) & thinking they know better?? just a tad hypercritical dont you think?

I dont know who this showjumper/horse combo is and i'm not really bothered because yes, i probably would never ride a horse in this tack but surely riders of GP level know what they are doing?

Each person is entitled to their own opinion but I get the feeling some people just think they know best.

Its a shame this thread meant as something light hearted has turned so deep. *sigh*
 
Temptation said:
Just because this horse has that amount on its head does not mean that the rider is heavy in their hand in anyway shape or form. I would much rather see that then a horse With a less server bit in having its back teeth pulled out. Every horse is different...unfortunately we can not ride them all in a snaffle and untill you have ridden and competed at that level you have NO experience to back up what you're saying. So don't bother. I have looked on the 'naked horse' website and it states that they would like people to send pictures of them in walk trot canter , over a pole or a jump in a head collar? Well let's see you jump that horse round a grand prix track in a head collar!
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Doh! This is like saying anyone who hasn't 'done' and studied Parelli to it's highest level should not criticize or have an opinion.

I don't need to have experience in the exact discipline to back up what I'm saying because there is documented evidence all over the internet and in studies about the effects on the horse.

If we aren't able to have an opinion about things we haven't actually done then forums will be dead. :D
 
NW1 said:
Its a shame this thread meant as something light hearted has turned so deep. *sigh*
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Agree with everything else you said but I don't think this thread, or the 'Naked Showjumping' sites were meant to be lighthearted but instead highly critical of riders who choose to use/need tack more complicated than a snaffle :)
 
rhino said:
Yes, so far there are a scattering of photos of novices cantering around a school or popping a 2' jump without reins. Not quite the same thing as competing at international level :rolleyes: although a great skill for novices to learn.
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Although there is that team chasing team - Bridleless not Brainless, is it? - that go round in headcollars (pink ones I think). Flippin' barmy!:eek:;)
 
Spudlet said:
Without commenting on that picture which is only a snapshot in time, I don't think that the fact someone rides at a high level should automatically mean that they are above question or criticism. I don't think anyone should be above question or criticism, for any reason.
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Just my two penneth worth but question...or seek clarification yes... It's a tad difficult to criticise without any direct knowledge... I personally don't like excessive tack...but these days I don't ride anything that needs more than a french link bit and a regular bridle... Back when I did ride more diverse horses, there weren't so many gadgets to hand...

I've not ridden the horse in the pic...
I've not asked the rider why s/he feels the need for that tack choice...
I've not ridden at that level of competency (with good reason :D)...

I'd love to do the latter because I'm a curious (nosy? :D) old gal who likes to hear other peoples reason/opinions... But without a bit more personal knowledge, I don't see how the choice can be criticised... Particularly in the totally dismissive/outraged way seen in some posts (not yours by the way)...

:)
 
Spudlet said:
Although there is that team chasing team - Bridleless not Brainless, is it? - that go round in headcollars (pink ones I think). Flippin' barmy!:eek:;)
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I think they are introducing a ruling to prevent that, which is a shame :( I would have happily competed xc on the ginger horse in a headcollar and used to school happily xc or sj bridleless, but that's because it suited the horse. It wouldn't be safe or practical on most :)
 
Ladydragon said:
Just my two penneth worth but question...or seek clarification yes... It's a tad difficult to criticise without any direct knowledge... I personally don't like excessive tack...but these days I don't ride anything that needs more than a french link bit and a regular bridle... Back when I did ride more diverse horses, there weren't so many gadgets to hand...

I've not ridden the horse in the pic...
I've not asked the rider why s/he feels the need for that tack choice...
I've not ridden at that level of competency (with good reason :D)...

I'd love to do the latter because I'm a curious (nosy? :D) old gal who likes to hear other peoples reason/opinions... But without a bit more personal knowledge, I don't see how the choice can be criticised... Particularly in the totally dismissive/outraged way seen in some posts (not yours by the way)...

:)
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Agree with clarification in this case :) But say, for example, a pro was transporting their horses in an unsafe vehicle. In that case I think it would be quite fair to criticise them. Just as a hypothetical case. By what some people are saying, we shouldn't criticise them because we have never transported a top horse. But if the vehicle is unsafe, it's unsafe IMO.

Or to take another, obviously very extreme example - Amy Tryon was a top pro, but after what happened a few years back I do think criticism was very much warrented.

I'm not comparing that incident to this photo, before I am leapt all over by anyone, but I'm just saying that the fact that someone is a pro should not automatically mean that it is forbidden to question or even criticise should it seem necessary.

As a general rule I think the simpler your tack can be the better but that the choice must be dictated by the needs of the horse and rider combination, so if a horse and rider need extra widgets to be safe and comfortable, so be it, and as I said I'm not commenting on that picture because I don't have all the information.
 
rhino said:
I think they are introducing a ruling to prevent that, which is a shame :( I would have happily competed xc on the ginger horse in a headcollar and used to school happily xc or sj bridleless, but that's because it suited the horse. It wouldn't be safe or practical on most :)
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I saw that too, seems a shame as I think they were raising money for Breast Cancer Care, or similar:(

I hope you would not have taken a ginger horse out in a pink headcollar because if you did I would be forced to report you to PapaFrita for horse/tack colour clashing and matchy-matchy abuse:mad:;):D
 
The captin of the team Mark Smith who I have regular lessons with is gutted about this abd trying to find another way around it! (im sure he will abd it'll be a lot scarier then jumping in hust a headcollar knowing him :D )I also think it is a great shame that they have banned it...if you can go team chase with a head collar then that's great! But some horses do need more then that.
 
I can't quote on phone but what utter b*****ks that people use tack to look good!

Yes there will be a minor few idiots that must have that 5 point breast plate because 'that's what eventers have' or stick un-needed iron in the horses mouth because 'all bsja horses use that bit' but the majority that are out competing use the tack that the horse needs & responds well in.

Ours is in a waterford gag with a martingale & shock horror a flash. We have tried bit, after bit & noseband after noseband, back & teeth done very regularly, vet checked over & this is the only combination that works for him when jumping. He is very well schooled & does flatwork/dressage lovely in a snaffle but just not sj/xc.

I don't think anyone can comment on tack being used by someone else unless you have experience with that horse in that discipline.
 
Spudlet said:
I hope you would not have taken a ginger horse out in a pink headcollar because if you did I would be forced to report you to PapaFrita for horse/tack colour clashing and matchy-matchy abuse:mad:;):D
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I have never, and would never, own anything pink :eek: :D

For the people behind this 'Naked Showjumping' campaign, do you not think it would be better to be lobbying the affiliated bodies for a rule change if you believe this tack is so 'cruel'? Currently the riders are complying by the rules set by their affiliated body so although of course you can have your opinions on what they are doing, they are not breaking any rules. If there is the depth of scientific evidence you are claiming there is then I think you would stand a good chance...
 
rhino said:
I have never, and would never, own anything pink :eek: :D

For the people behind this 'Naked Showjumping' campaign, do you not think it would be better to be lobbying the affiliated bodies for a rule change if you believe this tack is so 'cruel'? Currently the riders are complying by the rules set by their affiliated body so although of course you can have your opinions on what they are doing, they are not breaking any rules. If there is the depth of scientific evidence you are claiming there is then I think you would stand a good chance...
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I have nothing to do with this campaign but tack in itself isn't cruel. It's how it is used and in what combinations etc. etc.

It is interesting how it's great for some to ride in head collars and others are just to be dismissed... I'm sloping off as I don't seem to have a valid opinion and have been told to get lost in so many words. :eek: :D
 
amandap said:
I have nothing to do with this campaign but tack in itself isn't cruel. It's how it is used and in what combinations etc. etc.

It is interesting how it's great for some to ride in head collars and others are just to be dismissed... I'm sloping off as I don't seem to have a valid opinion and have been told to get lost in so many words. :eek: :D
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Please don't. I for one am finding it an interesting discussion. My (fairly limited) classical training and experience of my own horses could lead me to say that yes, everything can go beautifully in a snaffle (although all ours also use doubles when we feel they are ready), but my experience with other horses (I have been lucky enough to have ridden a couple of 4* event horses and a top class Puissance horse amongst others) would tell me that it is not that simple :)
 
I think this combination is much more severe than the double with the draw reins:
http://www.horseforum.com/attachments/78662d1320639224-discussion-showjumping-deaths-hickstead.jpg

And Hickstead was jumped in this in the ring.
However, I don't think anyone would be too quick to critisise this horses ability, scope and the riders ability.
It worked for this horse and this rider.Might not look ideal but we don't live in a perfect world

and another- Shutterfly- one of the best horses to show jump
http://www.boblangrish.com/images/g...ichaels Beerbaum -Shutterfly- Aachen 2005.jpg
 
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Spudlet said:
Without commenting on that picture which is only a snapshot in time, I don't think that the fact someone rides at a high level should automatically mean that they are above question or criticism. I don't think anyone should be above question or criticism, for any reason.

It's by questioning the status quo that change happens. If no one had ever questioned why horse had to be exported from the UK for slaughter, for example, we would still be exporting large numbers as we were during the early part of the last century. Because Ada Cole and others questioned this, we are now in a very different situation. It's a very different example obviously, but until someone stood up and asked the question nobody had thought much about what was happening to old workhorses or thought to question the trade. It was asking that question that began the process of change.
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Absolutely agree that it does not matter who you are - you are still accountable, otherwise all sorts of atrocities can and will occur.
 
This is a professional at the top of their game, has it ever occured to you that they might just know what they're doing a bit more than you? These horses can be quirky barstewards and the rider needs absolute control. I'd rather see this than see somebody fighting in a snaffle.
Also sometimes mild bits just don't work! My top horse, no matter how much schooling he's had just doesn't go in a snaffle (be it hacking, training or competing) and he has a rediculous headcarriage so goes best in a cheltenham gag and a tight headcheck (standing martingale basically). The South Africans used him in the Polocrosse world cup and put him in a snaffle and a loose headcheck, he came back to me with his mouth ripped to shreds and he didn't go anywhere near as well as he should have gone all because they prefered using snaffles in general (rather then looking at each horse as an individual) and his head was all over the shop, they looked to struggle on occasion. Sadly horses just aren't that simple!!
 
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I dont see anything wrong with the picture tbh, its just a double and a grakle..No different to me jumping horse in Pelham and Grackle, He is not strong he just goes so so well in it!!!
Re the draw reins, aslong as they are used properly (I dont use them alot as I get quite flustered, but am happy for more expierienced riders to use them on my horse) I dont have an issue with them!
 
I don't think anyone's condemming the use of a double bridle, grackle, draw reins or martingale ... it's the combination used together. If any amateur rider used that combination whilst warming up at a competition, would it make a difference to what people thought of it?
If anything, professionals need to get a job done because it is how they earn their living, and attempting to ensure a horse's way of going in this way is not condonable but probably an attempt at this.
Some people have stated that we don't know the full context of the situation ... and no we don't - none of us do! However there is reason to safely assume that this is a competition horse trained to a very high level, ridden by a pro rider and being warmed up for a competition.
Being a professional rider does not remove them from criticism or fault. This way of thinking is just backing off and putting all faith into a higher judgement.
Personally, I don't give a damn who they are. Some arguments on here are fair enough, but I still don't like it.
 
Puzzles said:
Being a professional rider does not remove them from criticism or fault. This way of thinking is just backing off and putting all faith into a higher judgement.
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I agree, 'Gods' are made by other people not born and being above criticism is one way to make them.
 
In the picture if the rider as warming up with the curb rien loose the horse would be going in a snaffle with grackle and draw reins.
Take the draw reins off and the horse goes into the ring in a double in good hands a mild combination for a strong horse.
Nothing awful in any of that.
 
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