Napping - A UK problem?

Tnavas said:
Napping generally occurs when you have a novice/or ineffective rider riding the horse and the horse has some security issues.

Napping horses are generally either young and inexperienced, poorly schooled or cunning.

Most of the time if you put an experienced rider on board the horse will stop misbehaving.

Horses in NZ nap too!
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Agree with this.
 
EquiEquestrian556 said:
We have two Andalusian mares who were imported from Spain about a month before we got them, and hadn't really been ridden when in the UK, both nap occasionally. I don't think it's only a problem in the UK.
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I can guarantee you no horse in Spain would get away with napping for 5 seconds! If your horses are in the UK, and nap in the UK, then it is a problem.........in the UK, surely?
 
Cortez said:
I can guarantee you no horse in Spain would get away with napping for 5 seconds! If your horses are in the UK, and nap in the UK, then it is a problem.........in the UK, surely?
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I know they are very 'firm' with their horses (to say the least). My Father's mare is really nervous around men, and can get scared at a few silly little movements we make.

They don't nap anymore, as we've trained them not to, but when we got them they did.
 
Cortez said:
I can guarantee you no horse in Spain would get away with napping for 5 seconds! If your horses are in the UK, and nap in the UK, then it is a problem.........in the UK, surely?
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This would not necessarily be true - it would depend entirely on the quality of rider on the horse. You like me are a professional rider whose skill is at a far higher level than the majority of riders with horses.

Rather than poor teaching as you mentioned earlier, the problem lies in the level of riding ability of people when they get to buy/loan their on horse.

I remember Elfin a pony I would hire from the riding school to take out on hacks during school holidays - he'd nap with me, because at that point I didn't have the skill to know when to recognise the lead up to the napping. Then as my experience grew horses took less advantage of me until it was me that got on other peoples napping horses to sort them out.

Its too easy to own a horse in the UK and I'm a firm believer that riders should have to pass a riding and horse care test before being allowed to own/loan a horse - mostly to protect the poor horse from the inexperienced often clueless rider.
 
As a child growing up in the Middle East I was lucky enough to ride a number of horses over the years. 2 stuck in my mind as particularly nappy - as in spin and take off across the desert towards home! However in their defence I was a small and rather feeble child so a bigger / more experienced person may not have had as much of a problem!! I was forever getting carted off by one mare in particular.
 
Uh, what? Spring Feather must only meet the North Americans who know what they are doing, but not to worry, the UK doesn't have the monopoly on misbehaving horses or clueless riders.

Plenty of uncooperative horses in the US. Just different words to describe lack of cooperation.

Barn sour = it either won't leave the barn or it runs faster than you want it to towards the barn after you have left.

Balking = Plants its feet and refuses to move forwards no matter what rider does. Might include spinning or backing up.

Ring sour = Acts out in some manner in the arena.

Buddy/herd sour = Won't leave its mates without a fight.

Jigging = A tense, shuffling trot it does on the way home from a trail ride, when rider would really appreciate a walk.

Napping = the British catch-all word that seems to cover all of the above.
 
Cortez said:
I can guarantee you no horse in Spain would get away with napping for 5 seconds! If your horses are in the UK, and nap in the UK, then it is a problem.........in the UK, surely?
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i'm sorry but i live in a part of France where apart from Trotters there are many , many horses here from Spain, they come up in huge amounts and off the top of my head i can think of at least 20 who nap, my own PRE had just come into France 2 weeks before i bought him and napped badly to start with, they are also very head shy from the way they are trained. getting a horse here that doesn't nap is almost impossible, i know because i had to find 2
 
Napping is a U.K. term , we all know what it means abroad I have heard it called
Balking , barn fixed ( I liked that ) ring shy .
I have worked with horse doing what I call napping in Turkey ( German horses ) and seen horse doing what I call napping in the US .
 
Tnavas said:
I remember Elfin a pony I would hire from the riding school to take out on hacks during school holidays - he'd nap with me, because at that point I didn't have the skill to know when to recognise the lead up to the napping. .
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I wonder if the cultural difference is also the type of riding.


Are there more happy hackers in the UK? And though I know horses can nap in the school, my experience of having to work through issues is that hacking on your own is where napping is most likely to surface.

I remember talking to a german person whose early riding experiences were very controlled and consisted of lessons (lunging at first, then off the lunge but in the school). She didn't really hack till she came to the UK. So napping may not have occurred because they were never put in the position you were. However it did in the UK when said person got their own horse and had to deal with a situation their training hadn't prepared them for.
 
I know plenty of nappy horses in Germany. Less noticeable often as they are going round and round in riding halls rather than hacking everywhere all the time.

there has been a proportionate increase in nappy horses in the UK alongside the rise in amateur happy hackers bringing on young horses and educating them selves at the same time IMO. Once upon a time a local nagsman broke & rode away a young horse and if it so much as hesitated when the leg went on going off the yard it had a smack on the bottom and never thought about napping again.

Standards of breaking and educating young horses are really poor on lots of yards these days, but people enjoy their horses so that's the main thing I suppose.
 
I find it hard to believe that other countries don't have their own share of ineffective riders or tricky horses to be honest. Seems a bit odd to assume these only exist in the UK. Some pretty self assured (by which I mean cocky) views coming to the fore on this thread.
 
I've ridden some horse in Germany and Switzerland who could nap like you wouldn't believe, and these were horse who had been handled, backed and ridden by pro's every day of their lives. You take a highly bred, hot, sharp horse, and ask it to do something it doesn't much feel like doing, and it's going to express itself! The behaviour isn't tolerated, and is nipped in the bud sharpish, but it certainly does happen outside the UK. If anything, it tends to be more dramatic when big, highly strung, opinionated blood horses are involved!
 
criso said:
Not sure about the horses on the continent. I know a few people who had warmbloods recently imported who were problematic to hack from the start because it hadn't been part of their experience. Whether it becomes a bigger problem or is quickly dealt depends on the new owner.
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I saw this too, 24/7 stabled and no hacking were commonplace in France. I think they are more leisure riders in the uk who hack more, certainly in my experience. Cannot say I saw vastly better care and riding, quite the opposite in fact.
 
I came across nappy horses when learning to ride in Greece and there are plenty of nappy horses here in France (of all nationalities, PREs are very popular here but nap like any other horses).

I have a German horse who napped in the UK and naps in France all with a Greek rider on board, so a bit of an international talent!
 
I think the nationality of the horse (or rider) is irrelevant; it is the system and effectiveness of the training and riding which causes horses to nap. I, as a non-UK rider who rides in countries which generally have established traditions of training, have never experienced napping like I have seen in the UK (and hear of on here). The ONLY horse I have ever ridden which attempted to nap was broken in the UK; he only tried it once and has never even thought of it since. I have sold horses to the UK which left here going perfectly and which learned to nap there: must be something in the water? :-)
 
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Cortez said:
I think the nationality of the horse (or rider) is irrelevant; it is the system and effectiveness of the training and riding which causes horses to nap.
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Mmmm am inclined to agree with this TBH.

Think it goes right back to the way horses are kept and ridden TBH, and also the way "equitation" is taught in this country.

When I was a kid (a LONG while ago OK) - the majority of kids in Pony Club came from a horsey background or had some connection to horses. Those that didn't, like me, if we were lucky either went to riding school and/or eventually had our own pony - in which case we'd join the local PC. In those days a lot of riding schools AND pony clubs had ex-Cavalry instructors, the one I went to certainly did, and we were taught to ride forward in a good balanced seat, a no-nonsense approach. The horses were all immaculately schooled.

A lot of us kids rode our ponies out completely on our own, and our ponies were all used to this and would do it without arguing. We were all capable of going solo, and of taking our own line out hunting. Our ponies were polite and responsive whether ridden in company or going solo. At pony club we were taught - again by ex-cavalry a great deal - to USE OUR LEGS and ride forward (and use the whip if necessary!). Result: nice "forward" ponies who didn't nap.

Nowadays, people IMO aren't taught to ride confidently like this. The average RS plod just goes along following the bum ahead and if they ever were taken solo, by golly they'd refuse point-blank. And the riders wouldn't know what to do, because they've never been taught how to handle a horse out solo on its own and to ride proactively and sensitively and teach the horse to go willingly off the leg.

This is the problem IMO.
 
Horses only nap or what ever you want to call it in the uk, because all British riders are soft and s£&t.....??TOTAL TOSH!

I have ridden in the US and in France, in the US I was given a known "barn sour" horse (end of season, not much riding left in most of them) she tried it once and learnt I would not put up with it. Fine from then on......not bad for a soft Brit eh!
Horses are horses EVERYWHERE, people are people EVERYWHERE! The same problems are EVERYWHERE, the difference here is that most horses here are pets and people do not condemn them at the first transgression. Now that might make us Brits soft and fluffy but do you know what I am bloody proud to be a Brit and bloody proud of the lengths people in this country have been known to go to give their animals a good life, witness the lengths people go on this forum and the way they care and love their horses....good on them!!!!
 
Just a thought, do people in the UK expect a broader range of activities from their horses than abroad? Like, my impression of the USA, and it might be totally wrong, is that if you want to trail ride, you get a trail horse. If you want to do dressage, you get a dressage horse, and so on… Playing to horses' strengths, if you like. In the UK a lot of people buy a horse that ticks some boxes, mainly being the type/ breed they fancy, then want it to do all sorts. Wouldn't that in itself up the likelihood of horses saying no to some jobs?
 
Cortez said:
I can guarantee you no horse in Spain would get away with napping for 5 seconds! If your horses are in the UK, and nap in the UK, then it is a problem.........in the UK, surely?
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Nappiest horse I've ever had was an Andalusian born and trained in Spain. It took a lot of training to really get it sorted - it certainly wasn't a behaviour he suddenly learnt the moment I, and others, sat on him. I think you're massively over-generalising here Cortez - perhaps you have come more into contact with the more professional European riders and less so with the rest who would be the ones having problems. That isn't to say that our systems couldn't be improved, but having seen the scars on many imported PRE's legs in this country, foreign methods certainly aren't ones I would always want to emulate.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
Mmmm am inclined to agree with this TBH.

Think it goes right back to the way horses are kept and ridden TBH, and also the way "equitation" is taught in this country.

When I was a kid (a LONG while ago OK) - the majority of kids in Pony Club came from a horsey background or had some connection to horses. Those that didn't, like me, if we were lucky either went to riding school and/or eventually had our own pony - in which case we'd join the local PC. In those days a lot of riding schools AND pony clubs had ex-Cavalry instructors, the one I went to certainly did, and we were taught to ride forward in a good balanced seat, a no-nonsense approach. The horses were all immaculately schooled.

A lot of us kids rode our ponies out completely on our own, and our ponies were all used to this and would do it without arguing. We were all capable of going solo, and of taking our own line out hunting. Our ponies were polite and responsive whether ridden in company or going solo. At pony club we were taught - again by ex-cavalry a great deal - to USE OUR LEGS and ride forward (and use the whip if necessary!). Result: nice "forward" ponies who didn't nap.

Nowadays, people IMO aren't taught to ride confidently like this. The average RS plod just goes along following the bum ahead and if they ever were taken solo, by golly they'd refuse point-blank. And the riders wouldn't know what to do, because they've never been taught how to handle a horse out solo on its own and to ride proactively and sensitively and teach the horse to go willingly off the leg.

This is the problem IMO.
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Agree with this ^^^ I think you've hit the nail on the head.
 
Apercrumbie said:
having seen the scars on many imported PRE's legs in this country, foreign methods certainly aren't ones I would always want to emulate.
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This is so true! ^^

My Father's PRE mare has so many scars on her back legs, and my Mother's PRE has so many scars all over her body & legs, as well as a literally 'damaged' mouth, where her lips look to have been split by the bit. And her lip has a scar on it and she also has one on her nose.
 
Pre spine shattering accident I never thought twice about buying a horse who wouldnt hack alone, aka was a nappy sod, despite the fact nearly all my riding was hacking alone. Most of them just hacked alone with no issues straight off the bat, some needed a bit of work, but there wasnt one I had that didnt end up hacking alone with no issues. I expected them to hack alone just fine and generally they did, if they didnt I worked with them until they did :)
 
Cortez said:
it is the system and effectiveness of the training and riding which causes horses to nap.
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Yes but if the system does not include hacking alone or even hacking at all then the horse has not been asked the question and had not been trained in to do that so you cannot say if it would nap in those conditions. It may have been trained beautifully as a dressage horse.

It then moves to a different environment/country where it is expected to hack alone and this is where the experience and confidence of the rider comes in.

Maybe that's where people get into trouble. They buy a horse that they want to be able to hack as well as doing dressage but get one that has hasn't been prepared for this.
 
Flame_ said:
Just a thought, do people in the UK expect a broader range of activities from their horses than abroad? Like, my impression of the USA, and it might be totally wrong, is that if you want to trail ride, you get a trail horse. If you want to do dressage, you get a dressage horse, and so on… Playing to horses' strengths, if you like. In the UK a lot of people buy a horse that ticks some boxes, mainly being the type/ breed they fancy, then want it to do all sorts. Wouldn't that in itself up the likelihood of horses saying no to some jobs?
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Perhaps. Certainly the people I know and work with do buy a particular type of horse to perform a specific discipline. Although where I live all horses do hack out too as we have a lot of land available to trail ride in. I also own different horses for different disciplines.

On the continent when I lived there, all horses I rode/handled were competition horses and did a fair amount of arena riding however at least a couple of times a week these horses were all hacked out. Again I lived right next to a huge state park so there was miles of riding trails.

None of my youngsters have ever napped but last year one of my livery's was re-backing a youngster (which we had backed properly 2 years prior with no problems at all but horse had been left in field untouched since then) and I had to be with her constantly otherwise she would definitely have 'taught' the horse to nap. The horse won't now as I made sure she did not allow the horse to take any moments of questioning what she was asking it to do. She on the other hand would have been quite content to just let the horse stand there for ages if it decided it didn't want to go forwards; not on my watch I'm afraid.

And also, our young horses go out hacking alone. Almost always for the first few months of them being backed. If we do go with other horses then they are generally placed in front and lead the trail.
 
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Apercrumbie said:
Nappiest horse I've ever had was an Andalusian born and trained in Spain. It took a lot of training to really get it sorted - it certainly wasn't a behaviour he suddenly learnt the moment I, and others, sat on him. I think you're massively over-generalising here Cortez - perhaps you have come more into contact with the more professional European riders and less so with the rest who would be the ones having problems. That isn't to say that our systems couldn't be improved, but having seen the scars on many imported PRE's legs in this country, foreign methods certainly aren't ones I would always want to emulate.
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Most of my work these days is with Spanish horses, and I ride a lot in Spain. I also ride Spanish horses in the UK on occasion. The system of riding there (Spain) is very different to that practised in the UK, and most British riders I have seen in Spain (and with Spanish horses imported to the UK) seem to have a lot of difficulty - not all, of course, but I would say the majority do. And most of those problems occur once the horses are imported to the UK, and yes a lot of them nap like billy-O. Why? Because their new riders don't ride like their Spanish riders do. I have NEVER seen a Spanish horse, in Spain, with a Spanish rider, nap.

The scars on their legs are usually caused by hobbles, BTW.
 
I don't doubt that some riders are ineffective and lead to nappy horses, perhaps I am one of them, mine can nap as he has panic attacks and I have no doubt that he would have been better in a more professional home where he is less of a friend. That said he never wins and is generally a delight to ride, he is a funny one who walks slower on the way home than out as he loves going exploring (til things get scary), so I can't have done a terrible job.

The worst napping horse I've ever met or worked with was a big strong NZ TB, owned and ridden at the time by Mark Todd and one of his amazing protégés. You could hardly blame a soft and fluffy amateur for allowing him to nap. He was just a big opinionated horse with some mental problems who often disagreed with what they had planned for him.
 
Cortez maybe your experience in Spain is with higher level riders.

I am half spanish and two of my uncles ride after a fashion. The are probably the spanish equivalent of uk happy hackers and I have seen horses in Spain (and in the UK when I borrowed a riding school horse and took one riding) completely take the p out of them. I have been out on hacks there and honestly can't say the standard was particularly high, alot were effectively self taught. This is going back to the 80s.

I did love the responsive spanish horses though and found them much easier than the lazy ponies I was riding in the UK but not sure how much is training and how much is temperament.
 
Cortez said:
I've trained and ridden all over the world for going on 40 years, and the only place where I have found napping to be a common problem was in the UK. Most places I have trained horses it is unheard of, the only times I've come across it is where there are lots of amateur, weak or uneducated riders. I think where there are very soft, ineffectual riders who perhaps don't have access to pro trainers/instructors napping and disobedient horses are the result.
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Surely if it were just a UK problem, Monty ORoberts would not devote a whole chapter to it?
 
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