Napping horse - I'm struggling

Chappie

Chappie

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Hi all, I'm in tears in my lunch break at work (its ok, not at my desk, not lost the plot completely yet) as this is really getting to me.
I tend to post stupidly too-long messages with lots of info and so will try to keep it short and can add in info if needed.
Been struggling with 18-ish yr old cob I part loan (I'm the only rider) and its getting unmanageable.
Teeth were done last week - annual by owner - no probs found at all. I got oesteopath out last Monday - no probs detected. She doesn't think he needs saddle checked as no reactions to her tests.
I'm still concerned as he has put on weight and I NEED to get him MOVING to lose weight.
I said this but she repeated don't think he needs the saddle checked as has not got sore back.
Owner will NOT help. Nor YO. Don't have access to help or instructor.
Tried walking out in hand, crop/kicking/severe use of voice, waiting it out - he turns back and I try and circle but we end up further and further from forward.
He used to hack out alone with me unwillingly but still went out, trotted, cantered, ears forward. Trots and canters ears forward once I walk him in hand past the nap spots.
There are points on the 2 routes we have choice of that he reaches and just wont move. Both on roads at junctions.
I have to go back to work now but wil try and provide more info school work feed turnout etc if needed after 5pm.

Should I just walk him out in hand for a few evenings? Had some awful battles over weekend and last night and I am just destroyed.
If it is the saddle maybe exercise in hand for however long it takes to lose weight?
Thanks if you can advise.
 
So he goes past OK if you get off and lead him???

I'd just continue to do this when you are on your own so you can keep riding to keep weight off, and try to enlist some help to go out with you on foot perhaps at the weekend??

Fiona
 
I had a similar issue with napping with a horse I used to part loan, albeit not quite as extreme as yours sounds. Owner came out with me a couple of times and one of us rode whilst the other walked alongside. This seemed to resolve the problem. Would the owner do that for you or maybe a friend?
 
If you really want to persevere with him I would get someone on foot to go with you. An instructor who would walk with you for a few sessions would be ideal because they would be able to give you ideas, confidence, exercises to do with him and it would be a lot less stressful than dealing with the problem on your own.

Its definitely not worth getting yourself all upset though, horses are just PITAs sometimes. I would either get on and decide to enjoy the challenge or hand him back to owner and find another ride. Good luck though with whichever you decide.
 
If no one is willing to help you (including the owner, I mean why wouldn't they, that makes no sense!) then I too would give up the share and go and find something I got along with better.
 
Can you ask a non horsey friend to walk or cycle with you for a few outings. Surprisingly, walking a dog ahead, can be a confidence booster.
If you can't, before he reaches the napping spot, push him on in a workmanlike walk or trot and if he does manage to plant himself, you could try bump starting him. Flex his head and shoulder to the right and then left so that he has to move his leg to rebalance himself. Once you've got the foot to move, give him a pat and rest for a moment. Then repeat the process until he takes a few steps and unsticks himself. Aim to walk a few yards, then pat and return home.
It may take a few days of bump starting, but pressure, release and reward does work and may help even with a wily, stubborn cob.
 
dogatemysalad said:
Can you ask a non horsey friend to walk or cycle with you for a few outings. Surprisingly, walking a dog ahead, can be a confidence booster.
If you can't, before he reaches the napping spot, push him on in a workmanlike walk or trot and if he does manage to plant himself, you could try bump starting him. Flex his head and shoulder to the right and then left so that he has to move his leg to rebalance himself. Once you've got the foot to move, give him a pat and rest for a moment. Then repeat the process until he takes a few steps and unsticks himself. Aim to walk a few yards, then pat and return home.
It may take a few days of bump starting, but pressure, release and reward does work and may help even with a wily, stubborn cob.
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If you like him and want to persist, then I think there are some good ideas here. If it is in the same spot every time, there is nothing wrong with hopping off, leading past and hopping back on but I would try to hop off before he reaches the spot where he naps (ie the junction) and then just keep going on foot without breaking stride if that's possible. I'm wondering if he choses the junctions to nap at because you have to stop to look for traffic?

As others have said, it is supposed to be fun and not causing tears and I can understand if you would feel as though you had "failed" in some way if you can't solve the problem but take a few deep breaths and realise that horses can be arses for no apparent reason and sometimes you just have to try something different!
 
Thank you very much to everyone who has taken the time to reply to my post, I appreciate it.
I feel pathetic, when there are people like Leo Walker and Sad Ken on here with massive real life/horse problems.
Got parent's health problems on my mind so that magnifies other stuff.
I am just not understanding horse language this time, that's all. 'Stupid human' wants to do something that horse doesn't!
I'll read the advice properly later and reply. Got to head out now - going to walk him to the half way point on a 40min hack then ride back. Meant to add it WAS just the 2 road junctions, and thats the first big plants, now its every little pathway junctions in the woods and tracks. I'm off and on several times on the rides.
I've loaned this horse 3.5years and been through so much and come so far with him. It's not a typical part loan situation. Can't say too much on a public forum but to stop the loan would leave him to a very possibly dismal and uncertain fate. He wasn't in a good way when I took him on. I'm in a way trapped, for now anyway. But I'm very determined and not a quitter.
But its not the end of the world - he MAY get over the severe napping - I want to try the waiting-out solution more - he'll never be forward thinking but we have hacked alone for more than a year prior.
Priority is getting him exercised even if it is in-hand/partly in-hand.
 
The napping could be a pain response if it's come on suddenly, can you not get the owner to get his saddle checked it could just be something as simple as that, or if you feel his just trying it on get someone to walk or cycle with you, what I do with my nappy one is choose a short round hacking route and walk it in hand a few times then get on and ride the same route.
 
My mare used to nap something rotten, and it turns out she was in pain. Any time she has even started to hesitate/nap since, I listen and see if I can find out the source of pain/discomfort. There is always something!

If you have had this horse on loan for over 3 years, he must trust you enough that he is now telling you something is wrong. I'd personally speak with the owner about a vet visit.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.
 
When I first got my horse, a mare 19 years young, she was difficult to hack out. She was very difficult to get away from home at all. We did overcome this. It took tiome, patience and persistence. My view was that I had to teach her that the way to go home was to go forward away from home. So, we would go out on the road - only a few yards at first - and she would try to turn to go home. I would not let her turn. if she did manage it I would keep turning to face in the original direction. I would ask her to move forward and when she did I would then deliberately turn her towards home. We would then pass our entrance and go a few yards in the other direction. A repeat performance would follow. Gradually over many days we got to 30 yards, 50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards. All the time she knew that if she moved forward I would turn and we would return. If she turned we would not go home and she would find herself facing away from home. After about 3 weeks we just went for it and have not looked back. In our case it was separation anxiety, not pain. Hope that makes sense. Good luck. Don't beat yourself up over it.

I know your challenge is at junctions, but at the junction train the horse that the way to take the he wants is first to take a couple of steps in the direction you want. When he goes in that direction there is an instant release of pressure from you - he has done the right thing and his reward is that the pressure ceases.
 
Pinkvboots said:
The napping could be a pain response if it's come on suddenly, can you not get the owner to get his saddle checked it could just be something as simple as that, or if you feel his just trying it on get someone to walk or cycle with you, what I do with my nappy one is choose a short round hacking route and walk it in hand a few times then get on and ride the same route.
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This is what I am most concerned about - could he be in pain, and how can I eliminate potential problems.
So his annual teeth have been done, apparently they took minutes to do and no issues. I got a highly respected oesteopath in who has worked with him twice last year and she doesn't think he is in pain and gave him a full 'service' with no negative reactions.
I'm still very concerned why he is stretching his neck right to the ground a lot, to the point he comes to a standstill. Oesteo told me to let him do it a bit but also move him on. Don't let him do it constantly and to a standstill.
I add I'm less than 8.5 stone and 5ft 6 and dont sit heavily or are heavy handed. So don't feel I'm an unreasonable burden as a rider.
The owners have had horses primarily for their children for over 10 years but are in no way 'horsey' and not very involved with their care. The owner just laughs and says I'm being too soft on the horse. He hasn't seen the nap battles or the stretching. He has started riding again (the son's horse) this year as the weather has happened to have been pretty reasonable recently. He even sometimes has a little ride on the horse if we go out with the two horses and he's never mentioned stretching - I'm always quite a bit in front as the other horse is very forward going! so can't see if he does it.
They won't be getting the saddle checked or buying a new one. I'm really tempted to progress down the route of getting the fitter out myself. I bought a prolite pad about 2 years ago on advice when I got the saddle checked by a saddle fitter so I am very mindful about it fitting correctly.
But what if he has the start of arthritis in his neck or back?
The owners will not be getting a vet work up. They just will not.
When I ride out with the owner (he sometimes rides his sons horse, just walks on a quiet hack) or follow on the back of one of the riding school hacks, he just follows the horses in front, or with the son's horse he is often happy to go alongside or in front. He's omega and will never be a bold forward chap yet often passes spooky things when the other horse won't. He doesn't nap or plant in company but stretches his neck a lot. He's a very slow walker but always has been.
The long term plan of the owners is to buy a house with land and have the horses living out in retirement but I'm worried as they don't have any knowledge.
The only person I have around who will possibly take me seriously is the mum of one of the liveries - she is involved in pony club and helped me see the saddle fitter previously. She's not around much as she works very long hours but I need to get her opinion on the stretching.
In meantime I'm going to walk out in-hand and maybe do some light ground work.
Thanks to all who have replied, I really appreciate your advice.
 
HeyMich said:
My mare used to nap something rotten, and it turns out she was in pain. Any time she has even started to hesitate/nap since, I listen and see if I can find out the source of pain/discomfort. There is always something!

If you have had this horse on loan for over 3 years, he must trust you enough that he is now telling you something is wrong. I'd personally speak with the owner about a vet visit.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.
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Yes this is what is bothering me the most - is he trying to tell me something.
I am confused as why does he happily trot and canter, even gallop, in the places on the hacks that he 'likes' to do this, he even instigates the upwards transistion, and I'm happy to go along with it as I'm glad he wants to go forward.
I do ride with a contact as in the past he has stopped for grass while fast trotting and cantering. He also has some pretty dramattic spooks but they dont bother me, it is better to have a decent rein length and not slop long though.
Maybe its worth trying a much looser rein, at least in the less spooky/non grassy areas to begin with, and see if that affects the neck stretching.
I'm not going to push him much and I'll do some more in hand work rather than ridden and see what the owners say if I'm still not able to ride out in a few weeks time. Maybe they will take me seriously then. I want to try to slim him down a bit by walking out in hand before going back to them about the vet (hes not huge but is rounder in the barrel than previous years) incase its the weight that is affecting the saddle.
 
Just wanted to say thanks again to those who suggested advice on the napping specifically - prob is he is planting firmly or running back or dropping neck and shoulder and twisting and fighting me so its hard to implement some of the things mentioned. I have been usually getting off and walking quite far then remounting, even if it has to be on the way home.
I was hacking alone right up till xmas then weather curtailed this so when March came I started off by walking out familar routes in hand. This was because it was often very windy and it was not safe to ride, that is mine and the horses least favourite conditions, but felt safer on foot. Then would walk out and ride home. Then progressed to leaving the yard on board. This napping thing has grown slowly but the last 2/3 weeks it has escalated. I wonder if I MADE this problem as last year did not do any in hand after beast of the east had cleared, the weather just happened to be okay on the days I went out alone.
I need to be able to hack alone as there usually is no one to go out with, in case anyone wondered why I was persisting.
I think writing all this down is helping me see a way forward.
I'm not gonna ride a horse I think is in pain but I will continue to look after him properly and exercise him in other ways and will see how things go. I'll hopefully be able to come back with an update in near future.
 
I don't know whether he is in pain, but can I invite you to consider whether you have inadvertently trained him to nap? In other words, has he learned that the way to release pressure is to nap and then you get off or take a turn towards home. This may not be the case of course, but it is not unknown for behavioural problems to be unintentionally rewarded causing the horse to learn to behave in this way. This could be entirely wrong.
 
Not read all the replies but our youngster went through a spell of napping and our saddler told us his saddle no longer fitted him correctly. Saddle changed and not napped since (touch wood).

BUT - also agree with other posts that you're supposed to be having fun so look for another horse. Owning horses (even part sharing) is too expensive not to enjoy it.
 
Has this recently come on? You mentioned he's carrying a bit of weight - not got sore feet by any chance?

Grass flush lethal this year.
 
If you don’t mind spending the money, I’d be getting the saddler out, as well as a physio/massage type person advice well. I often find that physios and osteos find different things with horses so if in doubt about something get them checked by both
 
Hack4fun said:
I don't know whether he is in pain, but can I invite you to consider whether you have inadvertently trained him to nap? In other words, has he learned that the way to release pressure is to nap and then you get off or take a turn towards home. This may not be the case of course, but it is not unknown for behavioural problems to be unintentionally rewarded causing the horse to learn to behave in this way. This could be entirely wrong.
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Thanks for your reply - yes I could of influenced the behavior, by getting off. I never turn for home though, I always do the ride, even if it means walking to the point of going home - always do a circular route, never just stop and turn round. When I get back to the yard I recently started doing a very quick and light turn around the school eg trot and canter on both reins - he doesn't work well in the school, never has, so its not as easy as that sounds. Trying to break the link of just straight into the stable and feed. But yes, the walking out in hand thing I only started this year due to weather conditions.
 
SEL said:
Has this recently come on? You mentioned he's carrying a bit of weight - not got sore feet by any chance?

Grass flush lethal this year.
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Frightening thought - I've not been too concerned as I would say hes about 3.5 on the body condition scale. Maybe I should have been. He doesnt have a wobbly crest on the neck, I can still do the girth up properly, but his bottom looks more cobby than previous years and his torso is rounder. He's only on grass for 12 hours a week - I know, but this is the one time of year that is an 'advantage' as hes not constantly eating grass. I soak the hay I give him at night and have cut out the hard feed except a tiny one of Thunderbrooks chaff to get protexin as he has an undiagosed IBS type condition which is terrible in winter. Has improved with protexin.
The thought is frightening me.
(Also to add ever since clocks went forward I've done some sort of work in the evenings, apart from a few days of terrible weather, even running round the school in hand eg over poles if I had a short time before it got too dark.)
 
Thanks to the members who have mentioned the saddler - yes I am thinking of getting them out to check this, plan for now is to speak with the lady I know who is in pony club (owns lots of ponies, experienced) walking (and trotting) out or in the school in hand every day in meantime, then next stage is the saddler and will look for a physio as I went to the oesteo as I've used her before and don't know of any other bodyworkers as yet.
Thank you to all who have replied, its appreciated.
 
Struggling on with a horse you own who does not suit if demoralising why you would do so with one who you don’t I don’t understand .
Riding should be fun .
Some Horses do reach an age when they have had enough of being ridden and don’t want to do it perhaps this horse has reached that stage .
Perhaps he’s sore somewhere he’s the right age for that sort of thing .
Perhaps he’s a lazy cob who knows he can get round you.
There’s lots of possibilities.
I would consider a Bute trial as a start if you give him a decent dose for a two days then a lower dose for a week and you see a improvement then you know he has pain somewhere .
Doing this can’t rule out pain ( as some pain won’t respond ) but you can rule it in if you get a positive result .
If you get a positive result then there’s nothing wrong with giving a older horse a bit of pain relief to help them keep happy and slim.
The owner really needs to be a bit more involved.
I see no reason for to struggle to solve this issue alone .
She’s out of order .
 
Your in a bit of a situation as the owner sounds totally irresponsible as in won't get saddle fitter won't get a work up done by the vet! I think you either pay for a fitter to start with and if there is no improvement vet check is really the only option, physio osteo are not qualified to diagnose pain issues they shouldn't really even say that the horse is not in pain.

The other option is walk away and find a horse with a decent owner with a horse you can actually ride and enjoy.
 
Just to add, you say he is stretching his neck down towards the ground and he's put on weight. If osteo didn't find anything, it could just be his saddle is pinching him and he's trying to remove the discomfort by stretching away from the pinch. Try him without the pad which could give him a bit more room?
 
Thanks to all for recent replies today - lots more to think about. Have made steps to contact pony club official, run things by her. She knows loads of people, might know a physio. Hard to get hold of her though, hopefully see her soon.
I have a saddle fitter in mind, apparently they work with the local tack shop and saw a young livery's horse recently, she got positive results. One advantage of being stabled at a riding school is that I may be able to borrow a saddle from the YO, if its weight gain that's causing the problem. It's just an idea. But it needs to be properly fitted of course.
Thanks for idea of taking prolite pad out. Might be worth a try.
Also the bute trial idea. All the things you mentioned Goldenstar, about his age etc, have run through my head. There's so many possibilities of what it might be.
Confusing as he walks home a lot better than he walks out, and the trotting and happily cantering, maybe hes overriding any discomfort. I now don't think the napping can be just in his mind.
I didn't realise bodyworkers could not determin pain, that's worrying.
It's a difficult situation but I'm not leaving him this way, as if I don't deal with it, nobody will, got to get him a solution.
 
Nic at rockley did an interesting blog post about hacking towards/away from home. So interesting I can't remember what it said... will try find!
 
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