Napping- Naughtiness or Pain?

3Beasties

3Beasties

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*Also in NL but would be interested in your opinions too*

I took on a horse a few months ago. He's a 7 year old, Selle Francais that has been shipped about a bit recently. From what I have been told about him he has always been a bit quirky/difficult.

On the ground he has been almost perfect with me, he's a bit cheeky but hasn't done anything awful, he's been fine to groom, wash, pull and trim!

Since being here he has had 3 months out 24/7 just chilling and then I started to bring him back into work. He is really good to lunge and long rein, will happily march down the road in long reins without a care in the world, if anything he slowed down when we turned for home!

Last week I sent him off to a schooling yard so he could be ridden in a safe environment to see how he was. After almost 4 months of not being ridden he didn't put a foot wrong when he was mounted and took it all in his stride (which I think says a lot about him). However he was reluctant to move far and would plant every few strides and occasionally go backwards. Again nothing awful and with correct riding and lots of pats the rider was able to get him to walk round the school without stopping.

We thought that he was maybe school sour due to be over worked in them so on day 3 he went for a hack in company. Cue more planting and not wanting to go forward, again lots of pats and encouragement and he managed a short hack, stopping every 5 minutes or so apart from on the way home where he didn't stop at all.

Day 4 he went out on his own with someone on foot, again there was more planting and some running backwards. He managed a short ride without incident (apart from the planting!) and when they were getting back to the yard he seemed keen to keep going past it so she allowed him to, he got so far but then planted again, when asked to go forward he responded with massive broncs (on the road!), she stayed on for 4 but then rightly so got off when she could as she felt he would have carried on until she came off. Once she got off him she let him in the direction he hadn't wanted to go and he was quiet as a lamb and more then happy to go forward.

He came home to me that day as I felt that as he is so confident on long reins then the likelihood is that he plays up when ridden due to pain. Does this sound about right to you?

It's a difficult situation as we don't know how bad he was before or if he's always been like this, if the problem is in his head or if it really is a pain thing that everyone else has ignored. I'm going to book the chiro to come and see him ASAP and will also get his teeth checked (although I really don't think it's his teeth) just to be sure but I'm thinking it's not going to be something so simple.

A few people have said it could be ulcers which I he has shown a few symptoms for. He has been seen kicking at his belly and seems to become a bit naughty (rearing and bucking) in hand when he's stabled (therefore fed more?), his old owner also told us he can't cope with hard feed. He does look well in himself though so not a classic 'ulcer' horse.

Other then that I guess it could be anything and will obviously be getting a vet out to give him a going over if Chiro/Dentist doesn't find a problem.

Do you think it's worth sticking him on Bute for a few days to see if he improves?

Any other suggestions or ideas? I really don't want to give up on this fella like everyone else has done but I really can't keep him if he can't be worked.

Jelly tots for those who made it to the end!
 
^^^ this would be my first check. i would even try sitting on him just on a prolite on a polypad (so, no pressure areas from your seatbones) and being led around. if he's happy, dispense with leader. some horses will put up with any old saddle, others are incredibly sensitive and will not put up with anything being even slightly uncomfy.
i'd definitely get him scoped for ulcers, i did this with 1 of mine who was being v tricky at the time, and it is a big thing to cross off the list.
getting his back checked asap is a great idea.
i'd avoid the full-on showdown with this sort if he can buck like that. i'd have someone on foot when hacking him out, as they did, and distract him with a rattle of food in a scoop if he hesitates, and only reward him when he goes forward again (or at least stops running backwards, for starters...)
the fact that he's not happy to just go along with other horses on a hack makes me fairly convinced that it is something physical, fwiw. herd instinct is very strong usually...
 
if he is shod, check his feet... also sounds like he is uncomfortable in his shoes, whip his shoes of and try him in some boots see how he goes.
If he is showing signs of an ulcer, grouchy when being girthed up, uncomfortable being groomed, depressed etc..take him of hard feed, change to fibre diet only and hay, no haylage ...
Also check saddle as may be pinching him.
 
definately check for pain.
this is my first move now after attempting to school a youngster out of being nappy and discovering it had a sore back-still feel guilty!
 
showgirl123 said:
if he is shod, check his feet... also sounds like he is uncomfortable in his shoes, whip his shoes of and try him in some boots see how he goes.
Click to expand...

:confused: Not everything can be 'solved' by removing shoes :rolleyes: He's lunging and longreining fine...

OP - back/saddle would be my first thing to check. I'd second Kerrilli's suggestion of riding in a polypad to see :) Good luck, hope you get it sorted :)
 
Thanks for the suggestions all.

He's not shod and seems to have good strong feet.

Will swap him to a fibre based diet, was planning to get some fast fibre and ready grass today for him anyway.

Like the ideas of having someone on the ground with food, will try that if he gets the all clear, he is such a 'pony' so I'm sure he'll be keen to move forward for food.

also bareback is a good idea, he doesn't have his own saddle as he wasn't suppose to be staying as a riding horse for me and I'm reluctant to buy him his own if he's never going to be worked, so bareback will be a good compromise to start with.

Ulcer wise he is very bright in his self and looks well. He has ben seen kicking out at his bellythough and does seem to get a bit difficult in hand when stabled.

He's such a sweet horse so I really hope we can get him sorted, either way at the moment he won't be going anywhere, if he can't be ridden he'll go a live as a companion with my friend and if e do happen to find something that can't be treated/means he's always in pain then the right choice will be made. To many people have given up on him and it's not fair to keep passing the problem on.
 
Just being nosey, is this the grey that I still want to steal from you? :p Would second what others have said re getting everything check back/saddle/teeth, the usual. A lot of saddlers will let you loan a saddle for a week so if he goes OK in the prolite might be worth using this as a second check (rather than buying, a bit cheeky I know, but hey-ho :p )
 
3Beasties said:
Yes Vallin it is :p

Saddle trial is another good idea :D
Click to expand...

Should add, I have a bit of a thing for selle francais (the girls in my sig is and I adore her) so want him even more now :p She can also be a pin in the butt to hack. How does he go in the school out of interest?
 
In the school he was much the same, although maybe planted more often. He didn't bronc but she didn't really push him at all, just sat quietly and encouraged him forward with her voice and litres of praise!

Your girl looks lovely :D
 
3beasties, what sort of saddle width is he? because i have a spare GP Barrie Swain saddle which i guarantee is 100% comfy IF it's the correct width for the horse (it's a standard Medium, with wide flattish wool flocked serge lined panels). I've used it to back a few and on various others (incl 1 that was a demon at first, visiting horse with a seriously napping, rearing, bucking problem before, but was fine in this saddle). It's gathering dust in my tackroom for a year or two until I need it again to back my filly (who's only a yearling now!), but i don't want to sell it, would be happy to loan it out.
 
This sounds exactly like PB. He has been to numerous novice loan homes and is now back where he was homebred after being turned away for a year or so because no one wanted to know. I've been working with him for almost two months, when I first met him you could hardly get near him and he was nightmare to do and was dangerous to ride, would just plant, put his head between his knees and run backwards - regardless of what was behind him, straight into fences, ditches, roads the lot. Similar to yours; he could be broncing and trying to throw himself on the floor but the second I got off would follow me like a lamb. I've never been closer to giving up with a horse if I'm honest. It took about an hour to realise why he was nicknamed Psycho Boy :/

I was loathe to give up on him for same reasons as you - very very sweet boy when he did let you near him, showed beautiful potential on the lunge and long reining and if I'm honest he'd been passed from pillar to post so much it didn't feel like it was his fault.

So I went through the following:
- Dentist (no problems)
- Farrier (Trim and shoes as he wasn't coping barefoot)
- Physio/chiro (had an amazing physio come to see him, couldn't recommend her highly enough. She spent about two hours with him - saddle was definitely hurting him, had some unpleasant back issues from carrying himself poorly when he was lame a while previous, generally needing some TLC)
- diet change (took him off nonsense hard feed he didn't need, put him on chaff with Mg)

This all gave me the confidence to establish whether there was any pain involved, when that was ruled out it was much easier to establish what was naughtiness and what was nervousness or maybe not understanding what had been asked.

From there he was taken back to basics, lunged daily, lots and lots of groundwork and handling, massages and stretches and just generally treated like a youngster. He has slowly been bought back into being ridden, and we are getting there - he still has his odd 'psycho' moment and will nap if I we even walk out alone, but I am determined that we will get there in the end.

So I'd try ruling out all the pain issues, bareback idea is great way to see if his saddle is the issue, then work on lots and lots of ground work and see how he goes with that but literally go back to basics with the ridden work and try not to give him any opportunity to 'win' if that makes sense, if he naps and you have to get off (and I'd definitely recommend getting off if you feel he's being dangerous) don't take him home - keep going on foot etc. I'd also say if pain has been ruled out and he plants and backs up in a safe environment like a school really get after him, I never advocate thrashing a horse but PB stopped trying it on when he realised that running backwards led to a sharp nudge with the heels and 'No' and if he ignored that a slap a short crop and more leg, all the time giving with the reins so forward is the easier option.

Sorry for the essay, just thought it might help to hear from someone with something similar!

Hope it helps!
 
This was my mare exactly. I posted about her last year when all she did was plant and go backwards. Like yours, absolutelyfine on the lunge and long reins. After persevering for 3mths with most people telling me she was just being mareish, I got the vet out, (saddle checked, teeth done,physio been) and they scoped her which showed mild ulcers. Treated for these but behaviour persisted so they did a full lameness work up. She was only 1/10 lame bilaterally but scans and nerve blocks showed Proximal Suspensory Desmitis. Long story short, she ended up having a neurectomy and fasciotomy in september last year and has come back into work a different horse! No more planting and backwards behaviour. Might just be worth asking the vet their thoughts? It was such a mild lameness but obviously caused her so much pain when ridden. She really was so genuine not to have decked me!

ETA No more ulcer problems since she had the surgery. Vet thinks the stress of being in pain all the time caused the ulcers so poor girl was suffering doubly :(
 
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Definatly good idea to get everything checked. As above, start off with the easy things, back and teeth. Scoping for ulcers to would be a good idea!

Do you have a saddler near you that sells cheapy second hand saddles? I am sure for £200 you could get a reasonable one that would fit to ride in.

Take it from there...
 
Kerelli - Thank you, that is such a kind offer but I would be really worried incase he damaged it during one of his moments/if rider fell off etc :o My TB's medium wide saddle looks to fit him OK as did the saddle they used on him at the yard he went to so we've got two to use they just haven't been fitted to him so to speak. Obviously if he behaves bareback getting a saddler out will be the next port of call :)

Turtul - Thanks, good to know that with time and treatment they can start to come right, hope your's continues to improve!

Ilovefoal - Will ask the vet what he thinks tomorrow as he is coming out to my other horse. Glad your's is now going well :)

Wench - As above, will definitley get a saddle sorted for him if I think that's the issue but for now will just try bareback or with my TBs saddle.

Should have said in the opening thread that he was 5 stage vetted in September (before he came to me), would that change your opinions at all? I know it doesn't show a lot of problems up if he had them....
 
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