Napping

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MillieL19

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I have a 6 year old Irish sports/cob had her since last December when I went and viewed there was no napping and owners never mentioned anything she then started napping and has just got worse and worse.
Refusing to go in front when out hacking and planting when alone I got her out of it by just riding alone and doing lots of circles every time she planted until she moved forward, now last week we went for a little ride around the yard with another horse in front (me thinking she’d got out of it) I then went to ride her the next day and were back to square one again doesn’t care or listen to any aids/whips doesn’t matter how firm you are just refuses, any advice is very appreciated. X
 
dont be firm, dont push, do literally NOTHING.....bore them.....successfully sorted nappers like this, take a flask and a book if necessary and allow plenty of time....2 hours was my biggest wait, never did it since.....the minute you put leg on or fiddle with reins, it just reinforces the battle, people that say move the front feet etc, nope, if they are proper napping...obviously check for pain but otherwise, literally drop the reins, sit like a potato and wait it out....!!
 
Alternative to doing nothing is to be uncomfortable…so wiggle in the saddle swing legs from the knees down and then if she moves you instantly become still and comfortable again.
 
Pinkvboots said:
It could be that she is not feeling secure I know you have had her nearly a year but some take longer to truly settle.

What is she like ridden in the school?

What is the turnout set up ?
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She does the same in the school she goes out
CJoe said:
dont be firm, dont push, do literally NOTHING.....bore them.....successfully sorted nappers like this, take a flask and a book if necessary and allow plenty of time....2 hours was my biggest wait, never did it since.....the minute you put leg on or fiddle with reins, it just reinforces the battle, people that say move the front feet etc, nope, if they are proper napping...obviously check for pain but otherwise, literally drop the reins, sit like a potato and wait it out....!!
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thank you definitely going to try !
 
I would not be punishing her for not going forwward sweetly, no matter how "gentle" the punishment. Waiting out is more horse friendly but may not truly get to the heart of the issue.

Walking her in circles was such a punishment and didn't work, she was insecure when she arrived at the yard, as all horses are when they move, but we expect them to crack on as usual (we've all done it). I would look to her levels of "safety" as has been mentioned - physical (is her body showing signs of dysfunction, check out the resources on equitopiacenter.com if you're not sure what you're looking for, few people are) first, bodyworker to check/treat her for sure, and make sure nothing has happened to her in terms of injury. Anything you can do to help her posture will almost certainly help the napping.

Second is mental/emotional/behavioural. If there's 100% no physical issue (incredibly rare), and for sure if there is one, then you'll almost certainly need to work on connection. Working with her on the ground in a way that also helps her body (posture) would be a great idea, and will help with her learning to trust you, especially if you learn to read her small signs better. We often don't recognise the milder forms of expressions of pain and confusion, so better observation skills would help us all.

There is seldom one easy fix for this sort of apparent "training" issue, but so often the training side of it is the last thing you then tackle, everything else "under" it needing to be in place first. Equitopiacenter.com is a good place to start the learning, not expensive and you can pay for month and cram in a load of learning to get you started. If you have a true horsemanship trainer near you (not too many around!) then that would be a great help.

Edited to add this https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=964109109094936, I could post this in response to a good proportion of questions answered on here, great video. And bear in mind leaving a baby to cry (wait, ignore) was rejected as inappropriate a long time ago.
 
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MillieL19 said:
She goes out from 9:30-4 tried before and after turnout
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Is she in a field with other horses?

If she is napping in the school as well you need to check saddle, teeth and back and rule out pain that can be associated with being ridden.


Have you got an instructor that could ride her to see if she does it with them.
 
Pinkvboots said:
Is she in a field with other horses?

If she is napping in the school as well you need to check saddle, teeth and back and rule out pain that can be associated with being ridden.


Have you got an instructor that could ride her to see if she does it with them.
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Yes she in field with others
I know it’s not pain because she’s fine when following another horse
Have tried instructor same thing
 
Nocturnal said:
Following another horse doesn’t rule out pain, just means she doesn’t want to be left behind which is pretty hard coded herd behaviour. Horses will keep up with the herd at all costs. Definitely worth getting her checked out imo.
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This I would definitely do all the basic checks then consider a vet visit especially if she didn't do it in previous home.
 
If you're confident that it's not pain, then the logical thing is to get a good instructor to help you. It may well be that there is a big gap in her education that you're simply not experienced enough to fill without professional help.

But if you're confident in your own abilities and consider yourself an experienced rider then obviously the most obvious next step is to have a performance work up done.

The cause of napping can be complex, but usually boils down to rider and horse lack of experience or pain.
 
I have one that naps he wouldn't hack alone at all although I had some success walking a short route on foot everyday for a week, then would get on and attempt it ridden even getting half way in to start can help.

I then just do this route for weeks abd then I repeat the process with a different route and try a bit longer, I only got up to about 40 min beyond that and he got upset so I never pushed it.
 
Nocturnal said:
Following another horse doesn’t rule out pain, just means she doesn’t want to be left behind which is pretty hard coded herd behaviour. Horses will keep up with the herd at all costs. Definitely worth getting her checked out imo.
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But she was completely fine up until the point I went for a ride with another horse big coincidence that all the sudden she’s in pain the day after following a horse
 
Can you get on/off easily when out on your own? My trick with an insecure horse is to go out on a there/back route. Lead from the ground on the way out, turn round, lead back, hop on just before yard. Let their wish to go home help you out. If they don't move forwards, sit there and wait. Once they can, for example walk nicely up the drive, get on a little further and further away until eventually you're doing the whole hack solo. If they get stuck, hop off, lead for a bit, hop back on.

To be fair I always hop off if they need encouragement. I did today - we went through a farmyard with a strong smell and some nicely hidden cows and all the ponies just parked up. Yes, one/all of us COULD have had the argument. But what does that teach them? It teaches them that cows = something bad. It makes them angry. Maybe, next time they'd go past for a strong rider, but it doesn't quickly remove the wariness. I hopped off and led my pony past. She went, 'Oooh, you're brave, I don't think we should...ok I'll follow you...Oh, it's ok. All right, I believe you.' Problem solved with no drama, no loss of time, no issue. Next time, I'll say, 'Go on.' and she probably will. But if she's not ready, again, no drama, it's nothing to get off and lead past. In time we'll have no problem at all.
 
maya2008 said:
Can you get on/off easily when out on your own? My trick with an insecure horse is to go out on a there/back route. Lead from the ground on the way out, turn round, lead back, hop on just before yard. Let their wish to go home help you out. If they don't move forwards, sit there and wait. Once they can, for example walk nicely up the drive, get on a little further and further away until eventually you're doing the whole hack solo. If they get stuck, hop off, lead for a bit, hop back on.

To be fair I always hop off if they need encouragement. I did today - we went through a farmyard with a strong smell and some nicely hidden cows and all the ponies just parked up. Yes, one/all of us COULD have had the argument. But what does that teach them? It teaches them that cows = something bad. It makes them angry. Maybe, next time they'd go past for a strong rider, but it doesn't quickly remove the wariness. I hopped off and led my pony past. She went, 'Oooh, you're brave, I don't think we should...ok I'll follow you...Oh, it's ok. All right, I believe you.' Problem solved with no drama, no loss of time, no issue. Next time, I'll say, 'Go on.' and she probably will. But if she's not ready, again, no drama, it's nothing to get off and lead past. In time we'll have no problem at all.
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Thank you very helpful x
 
MillieL19 said:
Everything’s been checked.
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Oh, great to hear you've had a full lameness workup done, and that the saddle has been professionally checked recently. It's always so reassuring to know that there's no physical underlying issues when we hit a problem.

@maya2008 post is really helpful I agree.

And perhaps the help of a good instructor can also be a good idea.
 
Had a fair few over the years and it usually stems from insecurity. They are much more worried than you imagine being by themselves.

My techniques…..

I use the 1m rule a lot. Essentially I ask them to just go 1m leaving the yard and then we turn around and go back, do the same again. I might do it hundreds of times. Then they might go 2m and then turn around and go back and do same again. Essentially you are building their confidence.

I am super strict about the one step rule. This is where I want them to move just one step in the right direction and then I will sit still and let them have time to process. I will then ask for one more step and do the same. This will get quicker and quicker and is essentially the fundamental building blocks for everything I do in a sports horse as they learn to deal and process spooky things very quickly when they get good with it and become much more confident. If they turn round reverse then my energy goes into making them stop, stand still relax and then one step forwards and relax again. Essentially they learn that one step forwards is calm and pretty easy.

Reversing is another technique I use. Helpful if they are shut down. Just gets feet moving and brain normally catches up.

I also teach them to follow cars, tractors etc. Horses like following things and weirdly will follow something quite scary. I tend to harness this when they are young to build confidence.

Stopping and grazing. Sometimes you can feel the worry building up in them so I will just stop and let them graze. It’s their reward for managing so well and tends to just make it all a bit nicer when the worry is building. The babies will hack up and down the same bit of road maybe 15x and stop where safe to have a graze or a treat.

Anything which is a hard no out hacking to pass, I just get off now as essentially saying I recognise you are worried and I respect that. I also find if you do this with the above they get better at problem solving anyway.

I had a horse who would only go in 6m of the arena he was so bad with anxiety and worry. It would take nearly the whole schooling session to be able to just go round the arena but he got there with time and not being horrible to him and just stretching his confidence slowly each day and I would do the same thing over and over again until it was good.
 
MillieL19 said:
Everything’s been checked.
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It's almost impossible to completely rule out pain, sadly. Have a look at the dissectionists, rehabbers etc on social media and what they're finding out. Even I, a saddle fitter, have directed customers back to the vet when "everything's been checked and ruled out" for the vet to subsequently find, often more than one, problem(s) with the horse that accounted for its apparently "behavioural" issues. I don't disagree that there will likely be training approaches that will be needed, but keep in the back of your mind that there may still be pain, whatever you think you've ruled out.
 
I have done the confidence building by getting off and leading - years ago had a horse who had competed but I don't think had seen anything of life and he was nap really badly out hacking. Not the same as yours as was fine in arenas as that was his comfortable area. I would get off lead him a few yards and then get back on when I found something to climb on. He was perfectly safe leading and getting on - he just got stuck. We would hack out with another and then practice him going in front and perhaps turning into a driveway or something just to get him confident at being on his own in his own mind. Do you have someone who could come with you on foot - we did that with my current ex racehorse as he took a lot of confidence in having a person at his side.
 
CJoe said:
dont be firm, dont push, do literally NOTHING
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I agree. I share a mare who naps. There is nothing physically wrong with her. YM and staff are expert and assure me of this. I just wait. If she ignores a cue to move forward I circle her once in each direction and then 4 steps back up. This is the Richard Maxwell solution.
My previous elderly share mare also napped. She chucked off staff riders but she never had me off in all the years I shared her. I just waited.
Horses get to know which riders they can nap with and which they cant. With curent mare I just talk to her. "I am riding you today. We dont stop." Last summer the only time she napped I suggested that she move one yard further on so at least we were in the shade of a tree while we waited. She did this. She is an Irish, winter horse and doesnt do well in the heat. One of my most blissful rides ever was last summer and almost entirely on a long rein in walk. We had a gentle canter on the home stretch but she gave that without question.
 
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