Nappy horse going backwards

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Flying_Form

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Wanted to come on here to ask a question relating to a rather nappy horse I am riding at the moment… a friend has asked me to do some light hacking with her horse who is a very sharp character who hates hacking on his own and gotten away with his antics at home for awhile now. (Would like to preface this horse is 100% sound and happy - tack is all perfect and my friend treats him like a king. His ridden career out competing and in arenas is great, and he hacks in company with ease! Vet investigation was recently done with no findings and the vet said that maybe horse just hates hacking alone or had a bad experience once).

At home, my friend attempts to go down her lane and when he gets just past the field a few of his friends are in, he spins around and if she attempts to go forward he rears, and then she just ends up turning around and going home which obviously doesn’t help too much! His usual routine with me is he will walk out my gate, to the top of our laneway and at the crossroads about a quarter mile away from the yard he decides that he does not want to go hacking. what he tried with me at first is spinning around, putting his head between his legs and heading back towards the yard, and the most dramatic rears I have ever sat (it feels like you’re up there an age so I can understand why my friend has lost her confidence !). I have gotten him forward the first two times and once he gets past this crossroads he is absolutely perfect and actually really enjoys himself.

But now he has a new party trick - going backwards. I have had a few horses do this before and I can usually manage it, but this guy is borderline dangerous. He will back into fences, hedges, towards traffic, you name it he will not stop. When he starts this I cannot get him to go forward without getting down and walking him past the crossroads and down the road a few yards before getting back up and then he’s fine. No amount of strong clear aids gets him going, he just gets wound up and out of control. Just want to know has anyone dealt with this before?

As I’ve said, he is fine hacking with other horses and the past two days I have gone with other horses to build confidence in case that is the case, but also to not have to worry about him backing into a car and hurting both of us. I’ve ridden many a quirky horse before who have done a lot more to unseat me, but I really don’t enjoy this because no amount of pressure/release gets him to stop unless I get off!
 
Either above as Clodagh describes or try waiting it out, bring a packed lunch first couple of times. Just get him to stand, do not make any attempt to try and force him forward.
If he goes backwards immediately spin him around and then stand. If he goes sideways same again, immediately do a very fast spin and then stand again. At the slightest hint of forward movement in the direction you want to go just relax, light contact and go with the forward movement.

Repeat over and over, you might be hanging about for an hour or two. A pure battle of mind over matter. IME it has very quickly improved over a few hacks never to be a problem again.
 
I've had two. One I was able to wait out and he accepted hacking after a year but was never truly relaxed about it, just compliant. Another was a nightmare, reversing into dangerous situations, afraid of a new daffodil on the verge. I tried for 6 years but was never able to make him safe. I had just given up hacking him, since he hated it so much, when we discovered that he was a congenital wobbler. He died soon after and I've always wondered how much of his problem was his inability to feel where his back feet were.
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Mine would plant (was ex rs so used to going in a group)

If he planted, I'd get off, walk him for a short distance, then get back on. Rinse and repeat. This seemed to trick him into moving and unplanting himself, and it didn't take too many goes, other times we were accompanied by a willing foot soldier. He wasn't "winning" as I'd get off, BUT he still had to go forward, in the direction i wanted him to. I'd increase the distance bit by bit, unfortunately no loops so would have to turn for home, I'd ensure I only turned for home when he was nicely rolling forward. On the way home sometimes I'd turn back the way we came as if going out again.

I'd do bits in trot as well, I wanted him thinking forward

It didn't take overly long, I wanted to mainly hack, and didn't want to rely on other people, so he had to learn we were going out on our own, no funny business

Once he realised, we very rarely had a problem, he did once go to plant and spin, got told quite clearly this was not acceptable, and didn't try again

The roads were quiet country lanes though, I wouldn't have wanted to get off and lead on a main road
 
Mrs. Jingle said:
No bullying needed, only patience.😉
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Indeed. Having some anger issues because a horse who I was riding with spooked and reversed at a thing, but before I could even offer to see if my horse would go past the scary thing (I was frantically reversing so the other horse’s arse didn’t hit us), the other one’s rider walloped him with the crop. He shot past the Dalek, and mine just froze, probably the least worst thing she could do under the circumstances. I was pissed.
 
I have a reverser/rearer. She’s put us on cars, scarily close to ditches, in hedges…
Any pressure and she goes up.

I have 2 methods. If safe, I sit it out and wait. Bore her to death for a while, then apply one leg and wiggle in the saddle. If I sense any resistance that’s not forwards, I wait again. I’ve found that she’ll sometimes go on after a while because she’s bored/confused/unsure and decides it’s better to carry on.

If that’s not safe to do, or we’ve been at it for while and she won’t give in, I hop off and lead her and hop back on.
 
Caol Ila said:
Indeed. Having some anger issues because a horse who I was riding with spooked and reversed at a thing, but before I could even offer to see if my horse would go past the scary thing (I was frantically reversing so the other horse’s arse didn’t hit us), the other one’s rider walloped him with the crop. He shot past the Dalek, and mine just froze, probably the least worst thing she could do under the circumstances. I was pissed.
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Oh my goodness what a nightmare! And what a silly person too
 
Clodagh said:
Can you just steer him so he goes backwards on the direction you want to go in?
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I can try but I do know if you face him towards the yard he has a tendency to grab onto the bit and trot off with you. I will try it though as I never have before and I have certainly exhausted all options at this point!
 
scats said:
I have a reverser/rearer. She’s put us on cars, scarily close to ditches, in hedges…
Any pressure and she goes up.

I have 2 methods. If safe, I sit it out and wait. Bore her to death for a while, then apply one leg and wiggle in the saddle. If I sense any resistance that’s not forwards, I wait again. I’ve found that she’ll sometimes go on after a while because she’s bored/confused/unsure and decides it’s better to carry on.

If that’s not safe to do, or we’ve been at it for while and she won’t give in, I hop off and lead her and hop back on.
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Might be trying the waiting option today. I do try my best to just stay on and kindly encourage him further because I know if you go in too full on he completely resists and it gets you nowhere, but maybe waiting might be a good option. He does like his praise so if he even takes a step forward I will offer lots of pats, I’ll let you know how we get on!
 
Crazy_cat_lady said:
Mine would plant (was ex rs so used to going in a group)

If he planted, I'd get off, walk him for a short distance, then get back on. Rinse and repeat. This seemed to trick him into moving and unplanting himself, and it didn't take too many goes, other times we were accompanied by a willing foot soldier. He wasn't "winning" as I'd get off, BUT he still had to go forward, in the direction i wanted him to. I'd increase the distance bit by bit, unfortunately no loops so would have to turn for home, I'd ensure I only turned for home when he was nicely rolling forward. On the way home sometimes I'd turn back the way we came as if going out again.

I'd do bits in trot as well, I wanted him thinking forward

It didn't take overly long, I wanted to mainly hack, and didn't want to rely on other people, so he had to learn we were going out on our own, no funny business

Once he realised, we very rarely had a problem, he did once go to plant and spin, got told quite clearly this was not acceptable, and didn't try again

The roads were quiet country lanes though, I wouldn't have wanted to get off and lead on a main road
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I’ve never actually had someone lead him before and this could be a good option to do two or three times at the cross roads just so I’m not getting off - might get it into his head that he just needs to keep rolling along. And thankfully our roads are very quiet, there is one busy road off that cross road but thankfully nowhere near as busy as a main road. Don’t know if I’d have as much balls on a busier road!
 
Many years experience has taught me one important thing….

Happy horses go forwards.

That fact would be my general starting point. Insisting the horse is absolutely fine and just naughty is not a good starting point…although it is one I too have used many times in the past, sadly! But it’s just never true.
 
Caol Ila said:
Go with others until he’s confident and/or get off and lead him past the scary spot if he’s responsive in a positive way to that.

I am so over bullying horses with pressure to get past a thing they are scared of. Screw that old skool sh1te.
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It’s certainly not a scary spot - I think it’s the spot where he realises he’s further away from the yard and his friends and doesn’t want to be! He’s not getting bullied, I’m very much a sit and wait type of person with kind encouragement forward, particularly with the likes of this horse who is quite sharp and would go absolutely bonkers if I went in with too much pressure. There does come a time where you say to yourself that this horse has hacked with friends many times past this, and hacked alone the first two days with me past this as point as well!
 
Patterdale said:
Many years experience has taught me one important thing….

Happy horses go forwards.

That fact would be my general starting point. Insisting the horse is absolutely fine and just naughty is not a good starting point…although it is one I too have used many times in the past, sadly! But it’s just never true.
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I agree P, the first horse in the two examples I gave was PSSM2, the second couldn't feel his back feet.
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Flying_Form said:
It’s certainly not a scary spot - I think it’s the spot where he realises he’s further away from the yard and his friends and doesn’t want to be! He’s not getting bullied, I’m very much a sit and wait type of person with kind encouragement forward, particularly with the likes of this horse who is quite sharp and would go absolutely bonkers if I went in with too much pressure. There does come a time where you say to yourself that this horse has hacked with friends many times past this, and hacked alone the first two days with me past this as point as well!
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I've found the really tricky ones are always better when they don't know a place. Once they get to know a place they then react to any changes in that place. As I said above, with my most extreme example it was a daffodil appearing on a grass verge that wasn't there last week.
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It sounds as though he is challenging you, and every time he gets his own way, he chalks it up as a win. Mrs Jingle's approach is a good one, if you have the time and the patience to sit it out. If all fails, he just might not like being a leader, who has to look for danger!
 
I'm another one going to say just wait, with lots of praise and reinforcement for any willing forward movement or get off and lead him. Our hacking has been, and may always be, a work in progress, but when I took the pressure off both of us and just started calmly hopping off and leading for a bit it all went more smoothly. It was reversing into a ditch over a loose line of electric tape that necessitated this change in tack also. I hated it very much and never wished to do that again :)
Flying_Form said:
There does come a time where you say to yourself that this horse has hacked with friends many times past this, and hacked alone the first two days with me past this as point as well!
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The point in time where the human says this and when the horse says this are different times. They do have extremely tiny and weird brains! It took 2 years at my last yard to get pony past a gate she hated without scooting sideways a bit. Nothing ever happened at it, it just had bad vibes and unfortunately I cannot explain to a horse why bad vibes are illogical. Losing patience about it doesn't help anybody, though I fully and completely understand the frustration.
 
ycbm said:
I've found the really tricky ones are always better when they don't know a place. Once they get to know a place they then react to any changes in that place. As I said above, with my most extreme example it was a daffodil appearing on a grass verge that wasn't there last week.
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I think about that pseudo-photographic memory a lot. Changes to familiar surroundings are just more dangerous to their brain than wholly new things. My mare is very like this, hedge cutting season is a terror. But recognising that's just how their brain processes things is helpful for having patience.
 
You sound as if you’re happy to get on and off so do that. Get off before the cross roads (and before he has even clocked oh this is where I do this) and walk on, get back on and continue as if that was your plan all along. If he doesn’t get the chance to start, he will be easier to keep going and eventually might forget that every time he see a particular spot he needs to start fighting.

We as riders need to get out of the mindset of we have to force them to do what they find terrifying to build their confidence. Building confidence can only come from a place of peace and calm.
 
Highmileagecob said:
It sounds as though he is challenging you, and every time he gets his own way, he chalks it up as a win. Mrs Jingle's approach is a good one, if you have the time and the patience to sit it out. If all fails, he just might not like being a leader, who has to look for danger!
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To be fair it can be flipping difficult never to hack unless you know you have the for or five hours you might need to complete a 20 minute hack 😆

That was my rule for the one with PSSM2, and it also took a year, with a combination of getting off and leading past, to be able to drop that rule and just go for a hack. But even then, he never relaxed, always on the alert for the horse-eating goose or leg-snapping crisp packet.

Until those two horses I would have said every horse can be taught to like hacking alone, but it isn't true, some just don't like it, for whatever reason.
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My now retired lad was a pro at napping and he'd throw all the tricks in - bucking, rearing, spinning, dropping the shoulder, tanking off with the bit between his teeth and generally anything else he could figure out to do with his 4 little hooves.

The first thing I did was lead him out in hand with a rope halter and long line, with myself kitted out in a helmet and gloves to see what would happen - turns out he was perfectly happy to be led in hand and he showed absolutely no resistance or undesirable behaviour. With that in mind, my next step was to tack him up, but not ride him and repeat the routes that we had successfully done in hand. Once more he was perfectly happy when someone was on the ground and was an absolute gem to in hand hack with.

The next step was to ride him and see what happened - and as predicted by my friend he went back to his old tricks but on a spectacular level - at one point he reared and was stood so high on his back end that I could see over the next door neighbour's hedgerow! At this point I figured out that him pulling all the tricks out was down to the fact that he was terrified to hack on his own - on the ground with someone in front or just me, he had company and therefore felt safe, but with no one on the ground - his safety net was gone and therefore his confidence was gone too.

To help him, I enlisted the help of a friend to walk the hacking routes with me (she took her young horse so it was a win for both of us!) and gradually over time she would stop and hang back, getting my lad to take the lead and we got to a point where she'd walk to the bottom of the lane, we'd turn in different directions and go our separate ways. I always lavished loads of scratches and praise on him when he put his "brave pants" on, any forward movement was also massively rewarded and with him being a foodie, I kept a few high value treats in my bum bag for an extra special reward.

We did have a few hairy moments where he reverted back to his old behaviour, but simply waiting him out (always checked it was safe to do so!) did the trick - he's a smart cookie and got bored something chronic being asked to wait - in a way he kind of trained himself out the behaviour 😆 Before he was retired we helped another livery out with her nappy horse and my lad got so annoyed with waiting that when the liveries horse put the brakes on, he'd walk right up behind and gently nibble the other horses bum to get them to move (I did of course check that said other horse wasn't a kicker and also let the livery know that my lad can be a bit impatient when asked to stand, so both of us were fully informed and aware of the situation and how to be safe at all times!).

I'd say in hand hacking is certainly a good place to start - and you can always get a few friends involved and slowly dwindle the numbers as your horse becomes more confident. I'd also advocate for getting the vet out as I knew someone who had a chronic nappy horse who turned out to have arthritis through its entire body, and once medicated and treated, went back to being good as gold and hacked for many more years before being PTS due to a freak accident.
 
Leading in hand first, then long reining so they go first (there can be a big difference between these steps, sometimes you have to combine them to start), then you have the option of long reining out, then hopping on for a bit and increasing the riding bit over time. It's all about the horse's self-confidence when solo. Groundwork at home in a safe place might be required before this to ensure they're safe to lead and in the long reins.
If you get the occasional one who is fine in hand/long reins but won't switch to ridden, then it's hacking a lot with others and working on going first, last, letting little gaps appear, etc. Again, this builds their confidence.

It also helps if the rider does all this themselves, as it builds the horse's confidence in the human as well. However, if the rider is truly nervous now, then it is best to use a different human to boost the horse's confidence and a different horse to boost the rider's confidence before bringing them back together.

I know the above all sounds a bit trite, but it takes a lot of work and isn't simple. Also, don't put a timeline on it. It can take years, and things can go backwards when challenges appear, like awful weather or changes in the hacking environment (hedge cutting, new house builds, etc.). Then you might have to go back to a few group hacks or long-rein sessions.
 
My native was very nappy to hack when he first came to me so I hacked him in-hand to begin with, then rode him the last stretch home and built up until we were riding it all.

I sometimes get off now if needed but it's not considered a 'loss' or 'letting him win' more 'putting money in the bank account that is our relationship' ;)

He's an incredibly happy hacking horse now and goes for miles and miles on his own but he has a strong 'no' and just needed some time to build his trust in me and hacking in general at the start.
 
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