Narcolepsy- Sleep disease

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akashapachamama

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Hi my Tb has narcolepsy or a sleep disorder.

he has only ever actually fallen over once in my knowledge after a Back Man came to visit and when the session finished he just fell down.
Usually his episodes last a few mins, he starts dozing then his head drops lower and lower, his knees unlock and start to wobble and then falls back but stops himself falling down or he'll wobble sideways with his legs like a giraffe. he'll ofter sort himself out and then it'll happen again. it can happen 5 times before he wanders off to eat grass or something.

I got him 9 months ago and at first it happeneed very rarely. however, over the months its gradually started happening more. the Vet has checked him twice buit the test for actual narcolepsy costs hundreds and is pretty horrible so im not going to bother. at the end of the day there is no cure, its very rare and whether it is or isnt narcolepsy, the problem is still there. My vet says I can still ride him (im not right now as hes being rehabilitated from his shoes to barefoot) but I should moniter how it progresses.

there seem to be triggers although it doensnt always happen in these conditions. when hes had a long groom, or ET, or reiki, or when hes snoozing in the sun.
Does anyone have experience with Narcolepsy in Horses, or has anyone had a similar problem?
 
It doesn't sound like narcolepsy as it doesn't happen at random moments. It sounds like it happens when he's having a snooze anyway? This suggests it may be more likely to be sleep depravation which occurs when horses don't or can't lie down. Do you ever see him lying down? If not, it suggests he's either afraid to, (does he live alone?) or it causes pain for him to get down or get back up. Horses need to lie down for at least 20mins each day to deep sleep or what you are describing can happen. You could try giving your horse a course of bute for a week or so and see if the situation improves. I suppose it could also be due to a problem with the soft tissue structure that locks the front legs so they can sleep standing up. If your horse had narcolepsy there is no way in hell you should be riding him ever as it would be extremely dangerous.
 
This does not sound like Narcolepsy more like Sleep Deprivation.

Is there anything that could have triggered it.

How much sleep does he have. Does he lie down to sleep much.
Horses only need about 30-40 minutes of REM (Deep Sleep).
 
As above. "Proper" narcolepsy is often stress triggered so not at all safe to ride. Sleep deprivation is much more common than people think, and can have a number of causes.
 
Thanks for your replies.
With regards to the sleep deprevation this is what I thought it might be. I dont see him lying down often so you're right about that but I dont think its a pain issue. there is no lameness or stiffness. Ive had him physically checked by 5 different proffessionals who all say there are no obvious phyisical problems. Ive already done a bute course for 2 weeks and it made no difference, he still had his sleeping episodes.

He has regular Equine touch and Reiki which seems to be helping. I have seen him lie doen after his ET but not really other than that. Is there anything else I can do to encourage him to lie down? (I am thinking about doing an ET course so I can treat him myself as its getting quite expensive having regular sessions.)He rolls alot but I am aware that that is different as theres momentum in his movement.

It seems to happen when hes having a nap in the sun, after his breakfast or tea, after grooming but not always during these times,and then again I am not with him all the time so Im not sure what goes on when im not around. Being a TB he does get cuts now and again but nothing significant to show that hes been falling over often like some horse with Narcolepsy apparently get.
Apart from these episodes he is very healthy and happy, not uncomfortable in anyway.
 
I had a similar problem a few years ago with a horse we had owned for many years. He started to get lots of little nicks & scratches on his legs - took me a while to find out why. He would doze off, and his head would get lower and lower, then he would start to sway, his ears would flop then he would sway until he fell over or woke himself up. It was very upsetting to watch.

I tried elephant quanities of bute for months, but it made no difference. He did it in the stable and in the field, he had company at all times. After a year and a half I decided to have him put down. He was 17.3 hunter and he knocked down two block stable walls and his stable door kept having to be re-hung. It was dangerous for us both and he had permanent scuffs on his hocks and fetlocks even with deep bedding.

I believe it was linked to sleep deprivation. He would get down and roll every day in the field but he had a previous cruciate injury and I wonder if lying down with his legs under him for a period of time was painful.

There are videos on the web of horses in USA doing exactly what Larry did, but they often had psychological causes and resolved when the problem was addressed. I hope this helps.
 
Tricky since the horse is relatively new to you and it could be difficult to identify a specific change. It can take awhile for the effects of sleep deprivation to "build up", as it were, so it's possible that whatever changes have affected his sleep patterns might be ongoing. And, as above, the actually need very little REM sleep relative to people but, like all mammals, they need what they need and missing it can have some dramatic effects.

Pain seems to be the most usual contributing factor, especially in older horses, but it's not the only one.

What's his schedule? Is there a regular quiet time when he can sleep? Does he have a horse to stand watch for him? (Many horses won't sleep without a trusted "guard".) Horses are not diurnal like us and, left to their own devices, they won't necessarily sleep during the night. I used to ride for a breeder whose fields were all on hills leading down to their school, so I literally got to spend the whole day observing the various groups - broodmares, retirees, yearlings, horses in work etc. - and how they organised their schedules. Other than specific feeding times they had very set days, playing, eating, sleeping etc at more or less the same times. The younger horses usually had a big, flat out sleep in the sun midmorning, during which the broodmares next door stood watch for them. Many of the older horses lay down in their field shelters during the heat of the day in the summer but not in the winter. Some - usually younger ones - lay down in the hay at their round bales and presumably used the eating horses as guards. I'm sure some of their sleeping was done at night but it stands to reason prey animals will only lie down when they feel safest, and that's somewhat situational.

Which is all just a long winded way of saying their might be some external reason why your horse isn't sleeping. Is he happy with his field mates? Is he out 24/7? If he does come in, is his stable large enough for him to lie down comfortably? Are there other horses in when he's in? Is there anything else about his behaviour, even if it doesn't seem at all linked to this problem, that jumps out at you?
 
akashapachamama said:
Hi my Tb has narcolepsy or a sleep disorder.

he has only ever actually fallen over once in my knowledge after a Back Man came to visit and when the session finished he just fell down.
Usually his episodes last a few mins, he starts dozing then his head drops lower and lower, his knees unlock and start to wobble and then falls back but stops himself falling down or he'll wobble sideways with his legs like a giraffe. he'll ofter sort himself out and then it'll happen again. it can happen 5 times before he wanders off to eat grass or something.

I got him 9 months ago and at first it happeneed very rarely. however, over the months its gradually started happening more. the Vet has checked him twice buit the test for actual narcolepsy costs hundreds and is pretty horrible so im not going to bother. at the end of the day there is no cure, its very rare and whether it is or isnt narcolepsy, the problem is still there. My vet says I can still ride him (im not right now as hes being rehabilitated from his shoes to barefoot) but I should moniter how it progresses.

there seem to be triggers although it doensnt always happen in these conditions. when hes had a long groom, or ET, or reiki, or when hes snoozing in the sun.
Does anyone have experience with Narcolepsy in Horses, or has anyone had a similar problem?
Click to expand...

Try this link for lots of posts on narcolepsy and watch some you tube video of narcolepsy too.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/search.php?searchid=791169
 
This might be a totally stupid idea...

Would it be possible/acceptable/of any use at all to get your horse into the routine of coming in to the stable at a set time, and then your vet sedating him? Would this encourage a new sleep pattern?

I know it would be enforced to start with, but if it works then the ends justifies the means?
 
No sorry but this is not sleep deprivation this is Narcolepsy.

These are exactly the same symptoms of a horse we have and he was properly diagnosed with the condition.

Our's was deemed safe to ride/compete etc but he needed to be kept an eye when stood on the lorry at shows etc.

Our's got worse as he got older too.
 
I think the problem is you can't diagnose things over the internet!

Presumably, if it is narcolepsy, then it won't matter if you investigate the sleep deprivation angle? It's at least another idea.

I do not know if narcopepsy in horses is similar to the same problem in people, but if it is, I'd be a bit leery about assuming the horse is completely safe to ride without being sure what his triggers are.
 
TarrSteps- he is just 8, which is another thing which worried me as usually its older horses which develope narcolepsy (if it is narcolepsy) and everyone says that the condition usually gets worse over time.
His shedule is laid back but there is a definite routine. morning- breakfast, groom etc. late afternoon- groundwork or inhand hack before tea. as I said before no riding at the moment.
He lives out with 2 others, so hes not alone. during the winter he'll be stabled in a large 12x12 stable with rubbermatting big enough to roll and he has a deep bed so theres lots of protection if he falls which ive never seems him do inside. I only actually saw him have an episode once in the stable, on his 4th day with me. this was the first time I saw it happen.
with regards to his behaviour hes a tb so hes not to most chilled out horse. hes sometimes aggressive around his tea, and he chews on anything and everything. other than that nothing sticks out.
thanks for all the replies. very helpful.
 
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Paulineh- what happened to your friends horse who had the similar thing to mine? has there been any improvement or has your friend found a way to manage it?
Also, I decided to go barefoot not for a medical reason, but because my other two have benefited so much for having a trimmer and being barefoot so I wanted to do it with him too.
Wonkey_Donkey- what happened to the horse you had who was diagnosed with Narcolepsy. Does he still suffer from the condition? are there specific triggers? how do you manage it so he doesnt hurt himself when he falls?
 
akashapachamama

At the moment they are working through things to find the trigger.

Has your boy ever raced. When you saddle him up what is he like, is he happy to be girthed up. You say he chews on anything, does he crib bit or windsuck.
 
Paulineh-
He did race, was with Richard Hannon but was too slow. then he went to point to point yard where he had a prosthetic laryngoplasty and eventually suffered a tendon injury. After a year turned away I bought him.
when saddling he was unsettled and impatient, i presume due to the fact that in racing yards they get dont spend alot of time doing it, just get on with it and go. however I worked with him on it and now he is calm and relaxed when tacking up, (I havent ridden him since late March though)
Ive seen him crib bite/wind suck twice. when stabled he weaves although only when hes anxious or just before hes tea or breakfast.in the field ive never seen him do it. Usually its just chewing.
he chews things like his feed bowl handles (i use the rubber bowls) he picks them up and throws them around, electric fencing posts when the fence isn't on, lead rope and halter before i get a chance to put it on, his reins, I sometimes use a kubota (mini tractor thing) for pooping the fields, he chews that like crazy, the seat, the pedals, the steering wheel, the lights, and he licks and rubs himself on the bonnet... he sometimes chews sticks like a dog bit always spits them out again. Ive been observing that he likes chewing on some textures more than others, he never chews his rugs, or any fabric really.
id be really grateful if you could let me know about your friends horse, and if you have any breakthroughs... its nice to know im not on my own!
 
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