NaSta

[joeathh]

Just flicking through my BD mag and saw a small article on a coloured stallion passing the NaSta performance test. I'd never heard of it before but googled and found their website. Does anybody know who runs it, I couldn't find any info on the web?

What do people think of the performance test? Could or should it be introduced as part of the stallion gradings in the UK for example for SHB, BWBS, AES, SSH, SPSS, CHAPS and others (I know it shouldn't replace those stallions 30, 70 or 100 day tested)?

If all stallions took part would it give mare owners better information and knowledge? Would it be fairer on stallion owners as approval or grading wouldn't come down to a subjective decision on one 10 - 20 minute performance? Would it be easier to compare stallions without the need to check grading criteria across studbooks?

For those mares who could take part in ridden performance tests would it be useful to take part?

I thought it was quite a neat idea 'a British Performance test' but then I don't know enough about it so may find it isn't as good as first seems. I also wonder how somethng like this fits with the Perfomance Sport Horses and Ponies initiative with the BEF, I think they envisage a general stallion grading comparison but this will be a paper exercise not a physical perfomance test. Interested in your thoughts and comments.
Please note I have posted this in another forum so apologise if you visit both

 

[Ciss]

The person who runs the NaSTa perfomance test is Roger Truelove (victoria Von wachter's husband) and his e-mail is info@nationalstallion.org.uk . It started off very strongly and with a wide spread of stallions from a wide range of stud books but it has decreased in support over the years and this autumn only 2 horses were forward (and one of those was a Trakehner mare doing her mare performance test). I think its lack of impact is due to the fact that not only do the daughter studbooks (apart from TBF for whom it was started) not really recognise it, neither do the BWBS, AES or SHBGB as they like their perfoemce testing to take the form of affiliated winnings in competition etc. However, I think BSPA, CHAPS and IDHGB do sometimes have stallions participating and the AHS used to make it one of the routes through to their Performance Premiums. The SPSS would be happy to take part but they would have to lower the fences and remove the compulsory cross country section for it to work for us.

Roger was both the initial consultation meeting in January and at the misreported
meeting last month and has been very supportive from the start as he could see how it could be integrated into the paper exercise and possibly increase in populalrity as a result.

Would that others had his breadth of vision

HTH

 

[joeathh]

Thanks Ciss

So there is no route available to make it compulsory (maybe via Defra or the Lead body for the horse?) because the studbooks are stand alone business' and as long as they conform to the outline from DEFRA and EU? Could it be forced on them?

This was my idea - I was thinking along the lines of having the NaSta type test for all colts/stallions and using this as gaining approval with said studbooks (backwards to how it is set up now). I think it would be a fairer system to have a spring/summer of qualification and then a final two day test (could be longer if entry numbers were higher and warranted it). That way stallions have more opportunity to show their worth than the quick 10mins they have now.

It could be made into a yearly event where all mares owners UK and abroad could come and watch the 'British Stallion Grading final' and dependant on the final grades and positions the studbooks could accept performance graded stallions into a section of their studbook, for example Grade 1 and Elite into head studbook, Grade 2 maybe auxillary studbook?

I think this is what is lacking here in the UK, I watched a stallion lic by web link in Germany, there were huge crowds and huge numbers of colts forward. I guess in the UK we don't warrant huge crowds because of the small numbers forward to each studbook, but put them all together and surely it could become something. Across all the studbooks then we could ensure a useful comparison. There could still remain higher sections of studbooks for stallions to move up into when competition sucess is excellent. If British Breeding is lacking, surely combining as one big industry where we all pull in the same direction would be more worth than the split up, confusing approach we have now?

Sorry rambling now...

 

[ashbank]

[ QUOTE ]
This was my idea - I was thinking along the lines of having the NaSta type test for all colts/stallions and using this as gaining approval with said studbooks

[/ QUOTE ]

As I understand it, the intention is for the Nasta performance test to provide information on ridden performance and trainability to assist the breeder and breed society. It is a ridden test only, and does not include a specific conformation inspection - obviously since it is designed to work in conjunction with breed societies' and stud-books' own inspections. It isn't a 'grading' and isn't designed to produce a licence or approval for breeding by itself - but can provide vital information on a stallion to both the studbooks and to breeders.

As such, I agree that it would be a useful stepping stone towards making a colt eligible for grading with their breed society - and perhaps something that should be carried out before a horse is counted as fully approved.

 

[joeathh]

Yes your right it is only ridden (http://www.nasta.fsnet.co.uk/performance.htm), the only conformation part is the vet section so not ideal.

What I'm trying to get across is the idea of a one week all stallions, all UK studbooks coming together for a grading and some form of perfoamance test - arabs, CB's, sport horses and ponies and others.

OK

it may need a wee bit more thought

like having studbook reps and conformation experts on the panel. But surely if all stallions came to one place for one week a year what an event! If the syudbooks would, I'm sure it could be made to work.

 

[ashbank]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes your right it is only ridden (http://www.nasta.fsnet.co.uk/performance.htm), the only conformation part is the vet section so not ideal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but Nasta has never been claimed to be anything other than a performance test - it's up to the studbooks to mark for conformation and type.

I agree with you that more studbooks should utilise it, and I believe that horses from different books do take part when it is held (ie it's not like they have one for TBF horses, then another for AHS horses etc etc).

Not sure logistically that multi-grading/performance testing could take place together - what about people who want to present a horse with more than one book?

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Ciss

So there is no route available to make it compulsory (maybe via Defra or the Lead body for the horse?) because the studbooks are stand alone business' and as long as they conform to the outline from DEFRA and EU? Could it be forced on them?

[/ QUOTE ]

Short answer is No, all have their own rules (some not even set by them but by their mother studbooks abroad) and any form of coertion from any organisation -- unles it is DEFRA implementing an studbook EU directive is fought against at every turn.

[ QUOTE ]
This was my idea - I was thinking along the lines of having the NaSta type test for all colts/stallions and using this as gaining approval with said studbooks (backwards to how it is set up now). I think it would be a fairer system to have a spring/summer of qualification and then a final two day test (could be longer if entry numbers were higher and warranted it). That way stallions have more opportunity to show their worth than the quick 10mins they have now.

It could be made into a yearly event where all mares owners UK and abroad could come and watch the 'British Stallion Grading final' and dependant on the final grades and positions the studbooks could accept performance graded stallions into a section of their studbook, for example Grade 1 and Elite into head studbook, Grade 2 maybe auxillary studbook??

[/ QUOTE ]

A fascinating idea, but I'm afraid like everything related to grading in this country, participation -- be it by stallions, mares or studbooks -- has to be optional . UK owners are sadly well known for never accepting that their animal (however incorrect or ill-prepared) is not pefect and believing that a judge or grading/ evaluating organisation that thinks otherwise should always be repalced by one that supports their own view of their horse. So even if it gets off the ground it would soon be beset by public complaints unless everything passed, which would rather defeat the object of the exercise <sigh>

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is what is lacking here in the UK, I watched a stallion lic by web link in Germany, there were huge crowds and huge numbers of colts forward. I guess in the UK we don't warrant huge crowds because of the small numbers forward to each studbook, but put them all together and surely it could become something. Across all the studbooks then we could ensure a useful comparison. There could still remain higher sections of studbooks for stallions to move up into when competition sucess is excellent. If British Breeding is lacking, surely combining as one big industry where we all pull in the same direction would be more worth than the split up, confusing approach we have now?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am becoming inceasingly convicned that the studbooks don't actually want an audience for the gradings in the UK and certainly being an audience member at most of them is both a physical and mental trial, as I am sure that most forum members who have been to a fair cross section of ones here would agree.

I suppose the LB could try to suggest that the studbooks make them more audience friendly or even <gasp> suggest that they try to combine venues and (where possible) panel judges to everyone's financial and physical better health but the turf wars will probably be sadly protracted :-(. In the meantime the grid of grading levels and encouraging the NaSTA format is probably as far as anyone can go, although obviously far short of how far they should go.

 

[springfallstud]

I think stallion testing in the UK is a fantastic idea, not sure all coming together for one week would work as that is an awful lot of stallions in one place and i dont think you could ever get enough riders, stables, etc for them all

but i def think a more through testing of them is a step in the right direction. I have been asked before why i dont use British stallions, well infact i have Don Ricoss is British bred and owned but resides in Germany and has been tested, i also have used Classic Juan, German bred, UK owned and based but again tested.
I am no expert in this field by any means and do know that the German system of grading is open to speculation, we put our Oldenburg Stallion through his 70 day test in Germany and there was an awful lot of politics that went hand in hand with it but he was throughly tested and i think his scores were fair by the end of it and i would definatly do it all again, when i have bred one good enough to go back out there and do it.

But what we then found out when bringing him to the UK was that many UK breeders dont care about gradings, when we were markerting him the majority of people didnt even know what the 30 and 70 day tests were they were far more concerned as to whether he had a nice name and how "cuddley" was he one lady asked!!!!! Infact the stud where he was stood had more calls for there unpapered (well same point as made in a diff post, he had KWPN papers but not graded with them!) ungraded, unbroken stallion than we did!!!! This was also a very well known and used stud with a good rep.
Sorry i have gon off track but my MHO is the there needs to be far more educating of people with breeding, maybe seminars over here discussing bloodlines, pedigrees, confirmation, stud books and testing!! So in order to make it all come together the "general" breeders need to know and understand the importance of a good stallion as opposed to just picking one out because he is sweet and cuddley or his owner thinks her goose is swan

 

[joeathh]

[ QUOTE ]
but the turf wars will probably be sadly protracted :-(.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it this that holds back British Breeding? I suppose what I am discussing here would not be aimed at the daughter studbooks (as they do appear to have well outlined grading and performance testing) but those general british studbooks. I know there will always be a situation when horses fail and people are not happy but I think that unease about the results exists today, when people believe it is purely the lack of being connected that resulted in their failure.

If we did have a stand alone grading/performance UK testing unit i dunno i think it could work!

 

[springfallstud]

I think it could work too!! Horses fail all the time in Germany so people would have to face facts, like i say some need to realise that their goose is not a swan!!!

 

[htobago]

I am planning to put my young stallion forward for the NaSta performance testing!

He is a pure-bred Arab, but some WB breeders would like to use him, so he needs to be graded with a WB studbook so that their foals can be registered as WBs (as opposed to just as PBAs).

A very nice breeder (volatis on here) talked to the TBF people in Germany about my boy and they say he can be presented for grading with them and then do the NatSta performance testing. The Trakehner people recognise/accept the NaSta test - I think it would be great if the other WB and Sport Horse societies recognized it too!

 

[Damien]

[ QUOTE ]
What do people think of the performance test? Could or should it be introduced as part of the stallion gradings in the UK for example for SHB, BWBS, AES, SSH, SPSS, CHAPS and others (I know it shouldn't replace those stallions 30, 70 or 100 day tested)?

[/ QUOTE ]

The SSH do offer mare performance testing (IBOP), Ster mares that obtain a good IBOP mare performance test result and produce a first or second premium foal/ or compete successfully in competition at a certain level, are accredited with Keur status and a 300GBP cash voucher. If these mares are also x-rayed they obtain the Prok and Elite status and a further 100GBP

There is currently no stallion testing in place, other than the initial grading, however stallions must return for reassement. The inital assesment inlcudes a 5 stage vetting + x-rays, assessment loose, for movement and jump, however they must then fullfill competition results at a certain level, pass fertility testing, and present their progeny at SSH gradings who must reach a certain standard to maintain their breeding license and/or prior to being granted life time approved status. This is a continual assessment prodedure unlike the current German systems whereby a stallion is granted lifetime approvals based on station testing and or competition. I do not believe they assess progeny nor are they expected to fullfill any further requirments after they have been granted life time approved status??

The KWPN offer a performance route for stallions also alongside their initial stallion selection approval system, however they do continually monitor the quality of the progeny a sire produces and also the results those progent acheive in high level competition prior to being granted lifetime approval.

The NRPS however test stallions but not in station but over a period of several inspections, allowing stallions to mature and develop at their own rate, progeny are also assessed.

Every country seems to have different systems and I think its interesting to note that the German studbooks are recognising that the performance route is perhaps the a better means of recognising what a stallion is able to acheive rather than the old strenuous 100 day tests and more inline with the AES SSH and KWPN.

 

[Damien]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Ciss

I think this is what is lacking here in the UK, I watched a stallion lic by web link in Germany, there were huge crowds and huge numbers of colts forward. I guess in the UK we don't warrant huge crowds because of the small numbers forward to each studbook, but put them all together and surely it could become something. Across all the studbooks then we could ensure a useful comparison. There could still remain higher sections of studbooks for stallions to move up into when competition sucess is excellent. If British Breeding is lacking, surely combining as one big industry where we all pull in the same direction would be more worth than the split up, confusing approach we have now?

Sorry rambling now...

[/ QUOTE ]

An exciting concept Joeth but those massive crowds are at nearly every studbook presentation because breeding is BIG business. The figures quoted for Hanoverian stallion coverings last year was 18000 - 1/3 foal registrations and that was just hanoverian stallions, not including Oldenburg, Southern Studbooks, Holstein, Zfdp, Westphalian, the KWPN 15000 foal registrations Denmark along the same numbers and they have the same population as Scotland

We probably match the foal registration numbers in total, but not sport horse registrations, the UK including Southern Ireland is still primarily a pony/TB/native breeding nation with sport horse registrations in the minority.