National meeting. First fatality.

cptrayes said:
It's back! It's the two wrongs make a right argument :D

The NH racing deaths are additional, not instead of. Any other horse sport that killed 2% of the participants during the event year, and more put own at home directly due to injuries caused during the event, year after year after year would be stopped. NH racing continues because of the amount of money it generates. If fox hunting had generated revenues like it for the economy, it would never have been banned.
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I thought it was 0.2% :confused:

To be honest, it doesn't matter how many times we argue over this we'll always disagree. Nobody will ever have the same opinions on everything, so ill carry on loving the sport and riding out my racehorses and you can carry on riding your horse and not watching the national :)
 
I would just be interested to know what those people, who are so opposed to the GN (or indeed racing in general) do with their horses? What discipline do they compete in, if any? How is their horse kept - on it's on, on individual turnout, kept in a stable the majority of its life and is only 'exercised' in an arena, round and round in circles looking 'pretty'? How can people state one horse sport is cruel yet take part in another?
There are deaths in all aspects of owning and riding horses, that's something you need to be aware of when you take up the hobby/sport.

Those who love NH racing may not be dressage fans - which is 'crueller', letting a horse be a horse for the majority of its day (ie, having turnout with others, getting a good gallop etc etc) or having a horse kept in a stable 23 out of 24 hours a day, wrapping it up in cotton wool so it never ever possibly gets hurt, never letting it interact with other horses naturally, feedig it high energy feeds yet then filling its mouth with metal so that the human can have control and forcing the horse to working in an unnatural outline all in the name of prestige?

Everyone's going to have different views on racing, that's never going to change. However, as many people have pointed out on this thread, there's a hell of a lot worse going on in respect of treatment of horses (that maybe the RSPCA should focus on as opposed to the GN) and that concerns me an awful lot more than these horses who are cared for, loved and are doing something they enjoy.
 
Hmmm one footballer and one showjumper opposed to how many racehorses? Seriously is that all you can come up with to justify racing deaths? Don't forget those who have heart attacks out running, just to add to your figures. I really don't understand how some people are happy to gloss over horses dieing like they do, all for the sake of money. 'Oh the horse died doing something it loved'... Really? Wish I could read animal's minds like that...
 
ladyt25 said:
I would just be interested to know what those people, who are so opposed to the GN (or indeed racing in general) do with their horses? What discipline do they compete in, if any? How is their horse kept - on it's on, on individual turnout, kept in a stable the majority of its life and is only 'exercised' in an arena, round and round in circles looking 'pretty'? How can people state one horse sport is cruel yet take part in another?
There are deaths in all aspects of owning and riding horses, that's something you need to be aware of when you take up the hobby/sport.
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I am against the GN and hate racing in general. Too many horses ruined before they should even have been backed IMO, too much whipping (saying the horse enjoys it, seriously?! A horse enjoys being smacked? Think I'd be banned if I did that eventing!) and simply too many horses being killed especially in the GN. There is worse cruelty of course going on in the world, but thats no reason for the RSPCA etc. to NOT try to make the GN safer!

As to your question, although I really dont see why it matters. I compete, I was competing CIC* prior to having my baby (18 months ago) and competing BSJA. I am currently competing BSJA with my other horse and plan to introduce him to XC soon. Yes, before you say it I know horses are killed eventing - but nowhere near as many as in racing. I keep my horses out 24/7, I've just spent 6 months turning my new horse who was previously stabled the majority of the time, to being happy out all the time. I disagree totally with any horse (competition horse or not) being stabled a lot, cruelty IMO.
 
Hedgewitch13 said:
Hmmm one footballer and one showjumper opposed to how many racehorses? Seriously is that all you can come up with to justify racing deaths? Don't forget those who have heart attacks out running, just to add to your figures. I really don't understand how some people are happy to gloss over horses dieing like they do, all for the sake of money. 'Oh the horse died doing something it loved'... Really? Wish I could read animal's minds like that...
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All for the sake of money? WHAT money? Go on, who makes money out of the National?
 
Harsh but true fact: there are far, far worse fates for a horse (or any animal) than a comparatively quick death of which it has no fear or foreboding, particularly when it happens with the adrenaline flowing during participation of the activity for which it was bred, trained and brought to peak fitness, and when the final minutes take place under experienced veterinary supervision where needed. That doesn't mean it isn't sad or that Little Josh won't be mourned by those close to him. Unfortunately however humans have a tendency to fear death above all else so often find that a difficult concept to grasp.

Unlike the vast majority of horses in this country nowadays, racehorses are working animals not pets. They are (in the main, notwithstanding the few undesirable but inevitable bad apples that unfortunately crop up in every situation) cared for, respected and even loved but it tends to be an unsentimental love. No-one in racing wants to lose a horse in these circumstances and the whole industry works together to minimise risk, but risk nevertheless remains as it does in any high-speed, high-impact sport - indeed, as it does in every walk of life.

RIP Little Josh, you brought a lot of people a lot of pleasure and you will be missed by fans and connections alike.
 
Can I just say hedgewitch, you can't make a horse do something it doesn't want to do. Especially TB's. I've rode racehorses myself and I can assure you that.

And for anyone's information, the whip is a incredibly thin piece of plastic wrapped in foam. And if anyone does not believe me, I will cut my racing whip in half and send it you in the post. Or you can wack me with it and see if it hurts me
 
FinalFurlong - I've ridden for 45 years and owned for over 30. My last horse was an NH bred TB - and believe me I know you can't make a horse do what it doesn't want to!!! :)

ETS I bought her at 6 months and had her til she was 15 - if ever a horse tried a human out she was the one! Loved her for all her daft moods.
 
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Seriously Caledonia?? Lets see... Advertisers, winning bookies, winning punters, winning trainer, owner and jockey. Or do you think they all do it for nothing?
 
FF you will also know that they are herd animals and don't like being left behind so go with the crowd. I always find it amusing when a horse doesn't start - that's the one with brains :)

Anyway some of us will love racing, and some of us won't because they don't like horses losing their lives for man's profit. it just makes me sad :(
 
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Somebody on here in another GN thread calculated how much it is worth to get a horse to the national including training fees, qualifying race fees etc etc without including vets and farrier then compared it to the national prize money. I seem to remember there was either a very slim profit margin or not one at all.
 
FinalFurlong said:
Can I just say hedgewitch, you can't make a horse do something it doesn't want to do. Especially TB's. I've rode racehorses myself and I can assure you that.

And for anyone's information, the whip is a incredibly thin piece of plastic wrapped in foam. And if anyone does not believe me, I will cut my racing whip in half and send it you in the post. Or you can wack me with it and see if it hurts me
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I'd rather be hit with a race whip than a normal standard jump whip! The BHB rules regarding whips are wel documented and jockeys will be pounced upon.

As for making money - EKW did a great post about the money involved.
 
Caledonia said:
More utter bollo* peddled - 2%??? Please back that up. :rolleyes:
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The industry publishes year after year statistics of one in 250 starters dying during a race. If an average NH horse runs five times a year (my guess, which I have often stated and have not yet been corrected on, please feel free to do so if it is wrong) , then at the end of the year 2 percent of horses which were in training at the start of the year and ran will have died on the racecourse.


There are more, of course, which are put down at home directly due to injuries sustained during the race.

I wonder how many people who argue so vehemently that racing deaths are acceptable are completely ignorant as to how many there actually are.
 
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Yes it was EKW with the money post.
And now its up to mad moose whether he wants to refuse again, and then its up to his owners what they want to do. I can't tell them to retire him!
 
MagicMelon said:
I am against the GN and hate racing in general. Too many horses ruined before they should even have been backed IMO, too much whipping (saying the horse enjoys it, seriously?! A horse enjoys being smacked? Think I'd be banned if I did that eventing!) and simply too many horses being killed especially in the GN. There is worse cruelty of course going on in the world, but thats no reason for the RSPCA etc. to NOT try to make the GN safer!

As to your question, although I really dont see why it matters. I compete, I was competing CIC* prior to having my baby (18 months ago) and competing BSJA. I am currently competing BSJA with my other horse and plan to introduce him to XC soon. Yes, before you say it I know horses are killed eventing - but nowhere near as many as in racing. I keep my horses out 24/7, I've just spent 6 months turning my new horse who was previously stabled the majority of the time, to being happy out all the time. I disagree totally with any horse (competition horse or not) being stabled a lot, cruelty IMO.
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How do you know though how many horses are killed/die in eventing or indeed at any other competitive event in the country? There are hundreds of shows and events involving horses every year and many horses die, in various circumstances. Likewise many die out hacking, either of natural causes or through accidents. Plus, of course, horses die every day in fields through injury, illness, neglect etc etc.

The difference is I suppose, in racing you can get statistics but it's hard to get the same for all other events isn't it. Does anyone know how many dressage, showjumping, eventing, showing, driving horses died of heart attacks, broken limbs etc over the last few years at every level of competition? No, I suspect not because it's just not recorded.
 
Chanel 4, Preparing a horse for the National. Rebecca Curtis the trainer, and the Vet who did "Inside Natures Giants". If you miss it, it'll be on 13 at 21:00 hrs.

Alec.
 
Hedgewitch13 said:
Seriously Caledonia?? Lets see... Advertisers, winning bookies, winning punters, winning trainer, owner and jockey. Or do you think they all do it for nothing?
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So - where do the owners and trainers make big money? Given that horses cost a LOT to maintain at that level. And jockeys only get a set amount per ride - most struggle to stay alive on that, after diesel, valet fees etc.

Punters, bookies and advertisers are only ligging. They're a byproduct of racing, not the lifeblood. Racing existed long before organsised gambling did.
 
teapot said:
As for stats, actually it was 0.25% for 2012 out of all starters on both flat and jump courses. Not 2%.

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/FatalitiesGraphLarge2012.jpg

The BHB goes on to write that for jump racing, it's just over 4 fatalities for every 1000 starters.

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/resources/equine-science-and-welfare/injuries-fatalities.asp
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Yeeeeees..... 4 in 1000 is 1 in 250, just what I said. If the average is 5 runs per horse then 2% of NH horses in a year die on the course.

It's a much harder figure to stomach when you start talking about horses, not starters, isn't it?
 
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Caledonia said:
So - where do the owners and trainers make big money? Given that horses cost a LOT to maintain at that level. And jockeys only get a set amount per ride - most struggle to stay alive on that, after diesel, valet fees etc.

Punters, bookies and advertisers are only ligging. They're a byproduct of racing, not the lifeblood. Racing existed long before organsised gambling did.
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Looks like I'll have to go to this then: http://events.history.ac.uk/event/show/9065

Racing's been bet on for centuries...
 
cptrayes said:
Yeeeeees..... 4 in 1000 is 1 in 250, just what I said. If the average is 5 runs per horse then 2% of NH horses in a year die on the course.

It's a much harder figure to stomach when you start talking about horses, not starters, isn't it?
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NONSENSE - dear god - you are quite barking! :rolleyes::D
 
Hedgewitch13 said:
Ohhh so they all do it for free - new one on me Caledonia! Definitely a mug's game then...
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That's quite clearly not what Caledonia said, so you're simply making yourself look silly now.

It is an unarguable fact that the majority of owners in racing make a loss from their ownership activities. It is not a money-making venture, it is an expensive hobby. Prize money in the UK is notoriously low compared to most other countries and at the 'everyday' level away from the top festivals such as Aintree, Cheltenham, Royal Ascot etc, even winning a race will barely cover the costs of entry, training, diesel etc. And as there can only be one winner per race, that means the rest of the field are running to make a loss.

With the exception of a small handful at the very top of the sport, the majority of trainers and jockeys make a basic living out of racing, no more than that. More trainers have relinquished their licences due to the difficulties of making it pay than have applied for new ones.

In this country, people are involved in racing because they love it, not because they expect to make their fortunes at it. The odd one or two will, but they are the lucky exceptions rather than the rule.
 
Caledonia said:
NONSENSE - dear god - you are quite barking! :rolleyes::D
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Please explain where I am wrong Caledonia?

I suspect it is a shock to you to realise that the stats published are not for horses, but for each time every horse starts. You cannot get away from this, if an average NH horse runs five times in a year then at the end of a year 2% of horses will die on the course.

If you are horrified by that figure, join the club. But you cannot simply pretend that it is nonsense, it is directly from what BHB publish.
 
Oh am I BB? I thought my point was quite valid. Of course people make money out of racing, and plenty of it otherwise it wouldn't continue! Nothing like getting personal huh? Luckily your opinion of me means sod all :)
 
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