Natural Horsemanship and Lunging

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S_N

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OK, so the as I've always understood it, the round pen theory, is to push the horse away from you using mainly your body language and only allowing any let up of pressure if said horse's body language/gestures show that he/she is willing to be submissive, right? Basically, establishing leadership. Once the horse is showing submissive signs, then he/she is invited in to 'join up' with the human bean. So, would it be right to assume that a horse who had only ever been round penned or lunged in a hap-hazzard fashion off a Be Nice Halter over some fences, would not understand traditional lunging and possibly panic, thinking that it was doing wrong, when actually only being encouraged to work forwards or even slow down? Thoughts on this please would be much appreciated, as I am loosing the will to live here! Thank you!
 
Quite the opposite

Horses who understand human body language from natural horsemanship are terribly easy to lunge.

This providing the lunger (lungee?) is not stood in the middle of a circle like a muppet......
 
Then can someone explain to me why exactly my horse panics everytime I send her away from me? I lost her a grand total of 7 times in the school this am!! Ok, so she was a little fresh, but FFS it was ridiculous! It was let go or ski and die!! As soon as she was loose, I'd call her and she'd come whinnying and whickering back to me, at trot and trembling. I have started more horses than I can remember and consider lunging and groundwork to be something that I not only REALLY love and enjoy doing, but am also fairly good at - this has me at a total loss though! The session started with 2 reins on her, which I down graded to 1. She's fine if her body is just about 3m from me any further and she just panics and bolts! Long reining out on the tracks she is angelic! ANYONE have any ideas?
 
What is your postion like?

You shouldn't be that far away and should be behind her pushing her forward. Rather than in th middle pushing her out sideways.

If she starts to run, make sure you aren't square to her or looking directly at her, which asks her to come back.
 
OK so what is your posture when you are starting to lunge? You need to be relaxed and not right... how to say this... standing big and and tall and face on - thats more of an agressive stance I'd say.

Can you try loose for a while and work on really softening your body language?

I've never really read up on NH but with Asti, we just play in the round pen and I try not to pay really direct attention to her and use voice commands too, but turn slightly towards her and point and off she goes. I then keep turning with her but slowly and relaxed and to change rein I turn so I'm ahead of her and lift my arm out towards her and she stops and changes. All changes of pace are voice only, or pointing and moving my hand from behind her towards the direction of her bum.

Now this is just what we do together, no-one ever taught us it. At the end when she halts and looks over, I turn my shoulder slightly away and within seconds she's at my shoulder and we do a bit of walk a few steps, halt, walk and turn and halt, and she follows and stays at my shoulder.

But its all much more relaxed than the formal on a lunge rein style, when you are always facing towards their head - so its always more aggressive because of the stance and where your arms are from holding lunge line (and whip.)

Does that make any sense?
 
I tend to keep level with the hip, depending on what I am asking for - slightly in front = part of asking for a downwards transition or a slower pace, slightly behind = part of asking for an upwards transition or a more active pace.

I never stand still, as I don't lunge on a continuous circle - I believe that can be detrimental! I walk with the horse, either in straight lines or in large circles. I am never square on to her, as I am always moving! I hold the lunge line in both hands - coiled in the inside (rear) hand and feeding it or collecting it with my forward hand - I always hold the line like I would reins, so I can half halt. Depending on the horse, I will lunge with an over head check or a coupling, attached to the noseband - with B, I lunge her off the latter, as she has a VERY soft mouth - obviously, can not long rein off this, but she is fine to long rein, so that's not an issue! It makes no difference if she is lunged off just the noseband either!
 
Yep that makes perfect sense! I would take her off the line, but I thought today, that she was going to jump out several times - the arena fencing is only about 3ft 6ins - nothing to most horses and certainly not one who can jump like B can! We play like that in the field - don't need a round pen. I want to be able to lunge her, as I want to lunge her with a pessoa on, to help develop her muscle tone - don't think you can long rein in one.......
 
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Quite the opposite

Horses who understand human body language from natural horsemanship are terribly easy to lunge.

This providing the lunger (lungee?) is not stood in the middle of a circle like a muppet......

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Yep - Ty will longrein or lunge now - infact he's nearly voice activated now
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can't do traditional join up without a lunge as he's blind in one eye and just panics and comes straight back to me in the middle (which kind of defeats the object!) x
 
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Yep that makes perfect sense! I would take her off the line, but I thought today, that she was going to jump out several times - the arena fencing is only about 3ft 6ins - nothing to most horses and certainly not one who can jump like B can! We play like that in the field - don't need a round pen. I want to be able to lunge her, as I want to lunge her with a pessoa on, to help develop her muscle tone - don't think you can long rein in one.......

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Personally wouldn't bother with a pessoa but that's just me - find that double long reining is so much better as you can give clear signals with the rein that's around their bum!
 
Yep, I hear what you are saying, but today, this was panicking her and lunging like this she was very fiddly in the hand before taking fright and bolting - not good!
 
BOTH!! I can see it coming and I leave off ALL pressure - hands and body language and still she panics! As soon as she is loose, she listens to me and comes back to me, talking to me and obviously very worried that she has done wrong! As I say, long reinging her is not a problem, it's as soon as I start asking her to move in large circles around me - I can run with her at her head for as long as I can keep up and she's fine, it's not he circle! I'm thinking it's the distance from me......
 
If she bolted with the normal lunge then let her get on with it (with sturdy gloves on!) my friend is a bit of a MR guru and just pushed Ty on and on until he got bored - then he started to respond to the body language etc....
 
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Maybe just play at small circles - dong halt and walk and halt and walk and bringing her in and out and in and out and changing reins, and then getting her to go a little further each time to get her used to going out further gradually?

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Yep, I think I'll have to - will get dizzy, as she starts tensing pretty soon after she's not within arms reach! Bleedin' Mummy's girl!
 
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I'm thinking it's the distance from me......

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God that's soooo sweet! haa haa

I think persevere with strong gloves on with a normal single lunge - I reckon she'd overcome it if you talk to her all the time and let her know you're there.....?
 
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If she bolted with the normal lunge then let her get on with it (with sturdy gloves on!) my friend is a bit of a MR guru and just pushed Ty on and on until he got bored - then he started to respond to the body language etc....

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Sorry, but it's just not something I want her to 'just get on with'! Her face and posture do not show naughtiness! She is incredibly sensitive and it upsets her! Plus a) I hate to think what it would do to her mouth and b) she doesn't panic on the circle, she just GOES, 0 to 60 in 2 secs, in a straight line. I do understand what you mean, but it's not for her. Thanks though!
 
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I'm thinking it's the distance from me......

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God that's soooo sweet! haa haa

I think persevere with strong gloves on with a normal single lunge - I reckon she'd overcome it if you talk to her all the time and let her know you're there.....?

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My voice is my first aid!
 
Has she always been like this for lunging?
My old horse also used to bolt on the lunge, but I found out later that some bright spark thought it was a good idea to stop a horse bolting by lunging them with a bag of solid concrete dragging behind. Genius
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This doesn't help you though, as I wasn't able to cure him.
 
Well, yes, pretty much - but bear in mind, this is the first time (not specifically this am, I mean time period) that I have been able to work her, as she was in-foal within 4 weeks of buying her nearly 2 yrs ago. She was taught NH (MR and Parelli)from her previous owner reading the books and thinking that - I was hoping that she may have forgotten most of it, as she was pretty damned messed up when I found her. No disrespect to these methods, but some of them need teaching inorder to use them.
 
I think the tip is patience then and re-educating her. Sounds to me like IF (don't want jumping on here its just guesswork) someone has not taught her the parelli games or the NH stuff correctly, she may associate you sending her out further on the lunge with being punished and banished for being naughty.

As you say - all very well in the right hands but dangerous in the wrong ones, and if she has been taught it badly - she will not necessarily be reacting as she should with normal body language cues, its like an exaggerated response and she's thinking she's done something wrong.

I think once she gets used to moving a bit further and a bit further and realises she is not being sent away and punished, make sure you really make a lot of her even if you get her just a foot further each time - she'll quickly figure it out and stop panicking.

Any chance of getting someone to walk next to her on the outside so she has a bit of company and isn't on her own?
 
Thank you for that GM - you have pretty much re-affirmed what I was thinking - re. the P.games and her extreme reactions. I'll keep you all posted - thanks again!
 
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If she bolted with the normal lunge then let her get on with it (with sturdy gloves on!) my friend is a bit of a MR guru and just pushed Ty on and on until he got bored - then he started to respond to the body language etc....

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Sorry, but it's just not something I want her to 'just get on with'! Her face and posture do not show naughtiness! She is incredibly sensitive and it upsets her! Plus a) I hate to think what it would do to her mouth and b) she doesn't panic on the circle, she just GOES, 0 to 60 in 2 secs, in a straight line. I do understand what you mean, but it's not for her. Thanks though!

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That's the thing - you know her better than anyone - with Ty it was plain naughtiness and not wanting to do what he was told
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She was taught NH (MR and Parelli)from her previous owner reading the books and thinking that - I was hoping that she may have forgotten most of it, as she was pretty damned messed up when I found her.

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That's what had happened to my horse. Unfortunately he had been completely ruined by it
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Good luck with the re-training, I'm sure she'll get the hang of it eventually as long as you can keep hanging onto her
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So, would it be right to assume that a horse who had only ever been round penned or lunged in a hap-hazzard fashion off a Be Nice Halter over some fences, would not understand traditional lunging and possibly panic

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It would have to be a really hap-hazard fashion for the horse not to understand what is being asked of it.
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This form of teaching is using full trust. If the horse does not trust the handler then it may be difficult to use this method to it's full potential.

I started a 2 year old yesterday. He has lived in his secure field here for the whole of his life and the most he has ever done up till yesterday is to go for little hand-led walks.

I took him to the round pen, did 15 minutes work with him. I sent him away and understandably he was slightly confused to begin with however he settled into it and within minutes he was working nicely in walk, trot and halt. In that very short time he instantly understood the principle of lunging......however he does already know the voice commands very well as I taught him these as a teeny baby.

About 5 minutes before leaving the pen, I snapped the lunge rope on him - he was perfect. Listened to every thing I was saying and was comfortable and relaxed in doing what was asked.

2 minutes before leaving the round pen, he started to join up. At no point was there any fear in his mind. He figured it out quickly as to what I was asking of him.

What size is your round pen? It would be incredibly difficult for a horse to just jump out of a round pen. I see yours is not tall, mind you. My round pen is almost 5ft tall so no way can anyone jumping out. I also don't understand how you say when she is on the straight?

I only skim read some of this post so apologies if I have picked up the wrong end of the stick.
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See I think this is why I hate NH its far too packaged and follow the book and you will end up with a great partnership. I just go by commonsense and dealing with each horse on its merits.
 
Don't hate NH
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....it is the most sensible thing in the equine world....and most people use their form of it.

If you have reservations then it should be for the nitwits who read the book but cannot understand nor have the ability to work correctly with the horse.
 
yes but surely that is good horsemanship? I am sure you have been doing this for a long time well before Pat Parelli came along and called it NH?
 
Yes but I really don't think it matters what name you place on the type of training you do. I don't say I do anything, I just train; my form of training. I certainly wouldn't say I do NH or IH, I just do what I do.

However there are many who are just getting into training and for some reason appear to have missed out on all these old-timers passing on valuable information on how best to teach a horse......therefore this is where the books or the label comes in. For smart people who understand the concept of these books, training will be simple for them to implement. The worry comes from people who have no clue as to how to actually READ what they seeing in a book.....and then they try it on their horse
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. How they can transfer non-correct information into teaching is the problem; often for both them and their horse.

I think the books are great for someone who has a clear understanding of how horses work - I think they are very dangerous in the hands of fools......however that said, I think horses are very dangerous in the hands of fools; end of story
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