Natural Horsemanship. Is it just a circus act?

When you can work your horse totally free with it listening and co-operating with you would be an amazing feeling.

It takes trust and a partnership. I remember watching a NH partnership work together and yes you can say it looks like a circus trick but the horse and handler were one.

Wherever the handler went the horse went too, the handler started running and the horse cantered beside him, he stopped the horse stopped, he got on the horse, bareback and no bridle and rode the horse around the Hunter course - to the stunned faces of the soon to be entries in the class with their horses in various items of gear, Pelhams, martingalesm riders with spurs.

His whole performance had me in tears. I'd love to have a partnership like that with my horses.

Basic NH is pure commonsense and basic equine discipline. Take away it's label and you have a very well behaved trusting horse.
 
Evelyn said:
When you can work your horse totally free with it listening and co-operating with you would be an amazing feeling.

It takes trust and a partnership. I remember watching a NH partnership work together and yes you can say it looks like a circus trick but the horse and handler were one.

Wherever the handler went the horse went too, the handler started running and the horse cantered beside him, he stopped the horse stopped, he got on the horse, bareback and no bridle and rode the horse around the Hunter course - to the stunned faces of the soon to be entries in the class with their horses in various items of gear, Pelhams, martingalesm riders with spurs.

His whole performance had me in tears. I'd love to have a partnership like that with my horses.

Basic NH is pure commonsense and basic equine discipline. Take away it's label and you have a very well behaved trusting horse.
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The thing is, everyone quotes liberty work as one of the best things about NH and the things you can aspire to, but it's not the case. 'NH' is just one of the ways you can achieve that. HAving been through a whole host of schools of thought on horsemanship, if I had to label myself I suppose I am pretty traditional these days, though I do favour clickers with some horses for some tasks. BUT I also comfortably ride 2/3 of my horses with no tack at all, including jumping them (I will do with the third one eventually but he's a rescue case and very nervy, so thats a long term goal!!). I am comfortable that my horses express themselves and that when they work for me, they are doing so because it suits both of us, not becuase I'm bossing them around - we negotiate together and I listen to them. You can listen to, have agreat relationship with, and have happy horses without needing to join a NH school.
 
Morgan123 said:
The thing is, everyone quotes liberty work as one of the best things about NH and the things you can aspire to, but it's not the case. 'NH' is just one of the ways you can achieve that. HAving been through a whole host of schools of thought on horsemanship, if I had to label myself I suppose I am pretty traditional these days, though I do favour clickers with some horses for some tasks. BUT I also comfortably ride 2/3 of my horses with no tack at all, including jumping them (I will do with the third one eventually but he's a rescue case and very nervy, so thats a long term goal!!). I am comfortable that my horses express themselves and that when they work for me, they are doing so because it suits both of us, not becuase I'm bossing them around - we negotiate together and I listen to them. You can listen to, have agreat relationship with, and have happy horses without needing to join a NH school.
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Well it is true that liberty work is seen as one of the best things about NH and what people who are taken by these methods aspire to. Which ever method you use, I believe that once you free them, not in a school, or restricted area, but where they have the choice to stay with you or not thats really a measure of the relationship you have with them. If you have been 'forcing' it or 'faking' it in the school or restricted area, you cannot do it where they have the room to leave, because they always do.
 
Yes - exactly my point. And you can achieve that wiuthout parelli or MR or anything. I don't force my horses - quite the opposite. In fact, my mare will not do anything at all if you try and force her whihc is why I was givne her for free, lucky me :-)! Nobody could really do anything with her. Be kind and quiet and you can do anything - I happily galloped her around a big field with no tack last year and it was a great feeling.

We have to remember that when summing up the pros and cons of each school of thought we need to look at the method and not necessarily the results (by result I mean the specific behaviours which are being worked on; backing up or working loose or circus tricks or whatever). There was a girl in our yard doing parelli for a bit and she had got to a point where she could point her carrot stick at her horse's feet and he'd pick them up. Another girl said to me that she wanted to start parelli becuase she wanted her horse to pick up his feet when she pointed at them. Obviously, that is completely ridiculous beucase there are any number of ways you can make a horse pick up its feet by pointing at them - I taught mine the same using a clicker. It's the method we should be looking at, not the resulting behaviours that have been taught.
 
Why not start up a thread about clicker? That would be really interesting and probably get more attention than if it's hidden in a discussion about nh.
 
Most liberty work performed in demos/videos for NH (not just Parelli but 99% of the schools) isn't really at liberty anyway in my opinion. To me at liberty means no rope, no saddle no stick, no gadgets, in essence nothing but you and your horse. I am sure many people's opinions will differ to mine but that is how I feel.
I ride one of my horses entirely gadget free (the others are retired). I have jumped upto 3'3" at liberty. I have also jumped up to 3'9" bareback with just a leadrope around his neck, but I wouldn't consider that at liberty. I was told when I got him that he wouldn't jump higher than 2'6".
I could hack out at liberty if I so wanted, the fact I possess a brain tells me that it is not a sensible idea so I save the liberty work for the fields and school!
 
Why completely ridiculous, yes you can do it a number of ways, but if someone wanted to learn Parelli, why not? It's the same as me saying, 'clicker training, how ridiculous, there are other ways to do it.'

I agree that liberty is just you and the horse.
 
Forgive me for being cynical, but so many people make claims about what they can do bareback and bridleless and at liberty, but we never see any proof. Can anyone who isn't a nh student here just go out and video themselves one day doing some things like this. Just to put their money where their mouths are?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAfIT_RYIoY&feature=youtu.be
Or, if you wanted to do something along these lines, I'd forgive the use of a neck rope...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2yDdRK_Zc&feature=youtu.be

I like the first one best by the way.

Because... love or hate the way they go about getting these results, these nh students are brave enough to video what they are doing and put it up for the world to praise or pull apart as they wish. I think it would be kind of polite for their strongest critics, if they claim that it's all common sense and they can do that anyway without being nh students, to do the same.
 
Tinypony said:
Forgive me for being cynical, but so many people make claims about what they can do bareback and bridleless and at liberty, but we never see any proof. Can anyone who isn't a nh student here just go out and video themselves one day doing some things like this. Just to put their money where their mouths are?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAfIT_RYIoY&feature=youtu.be
Or, if you wanted to do something along these lines, I'd forgive the use of a neck rope...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2yDdRK_Zc&feature=youtu.be

I like the first one best by the way.

Because... love or hate the way they go about getting these results, these nh students are brave enough to video what they are doing and put it up for the world to praise or pull apart as they wish. I think it would be kind of polite for their strongest critics, if they claim that it's all common sense and they can do that anyway without being nh students, to do the same.
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Cool OK I'm going to do it. I'll dig out the ol' video camera!!!
 
Tinypony said:
Forgive me for being cynical, but so many people make claims about what they can do bareback and bridleless and at liberty, but we never see any proof. Can anyone who isn't a nh student here just go out and video themselves one day doing some things like this. Just to put their money where their mouths are?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAfIT_RYIoY&feature=youtu.be
Or, if you wanted to do something along these lines, I'd forgive the use of a neck rope...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2yDdRK_Zc&feature=youtu.be

I like the first one best by the way.

Because... love or hate the way they go about getting these results, these nh students are brave enough to video what they are doing and put it up for the world to praise or pull apart as they wish. I think it would be kind of polite for their strongest critics, if they claim that it's all common sense and they can do that anyway without being nh students, to do the same.
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It is your choice wether you believe me or not, you are more than welcome to presume me a liar, I know that I am not lying or even slightly exaggerating and that is all that matters to me.

My relationship with my boy is personal and I don't feel the need to display it to the world and as a consequence of this I don't post videos of myself and my horses on youtube, I have those treasures for my own enjoyment, not to prove myself to the world. I don't need to justify my partnership with my horses as I know it is there, and quite frankly I don't need to court the praise most of these youtube users are after.

I am quite certain many will brand me a fraud because I refuse to prove myself, they are more than welcome to do that.
 
I am not accusing you of being a liar. I am maybe suggesting that you are being a bit unfair.
Whether I choose to believe your claims or not is neither here nor there. It will be fun to see the tackfree and liberty videos from people who are up for showing some fun though won't it?


A lot of You Tube users put their videos up so that they can share them with friends, and a lot of the Parelli ones are up there because it's how they get their "auditions" assessed. However, I think they are brave because they post them knowing that somewhere people might rip them to shreds and call their training into question.
 
Golf Girl said:
Fantastic! I've seen Mikey on the 'Spotlight' section at the Parelli Celebrations and he never ceases to amaze. Agnes and Iroy are equally impressive. Very inspirational, thanks for sharing :)
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I've seen Mikey a few times to and he is awesome, and always adds an element of fun to it, like when he turns his cap around and goes galloping around the arena bareback and bridleless!
His relationship with his horses is amazing.
When the horse is at liberty it doesn't really matter how you 'trained' the horse, they are free to do as they wish and so what you are seeing in these performances is the truth about how these horses feel about their human partners and that says it all really!
 
team barney said:
It is your choice wether you believe me or not, you are more than welcome to presume me a liar, I know that I am not lying or even slightly exaggerating and that is all that matters to me.

My relationship with my boy is personal and I don't feel the need to display it to the world and as a consequence of this I don't post videos of myself and my horses on youtube, I have those treasures for my own enjoyment, not to prove myself to the world. I don't need to justify my partnership with my horses as I know it is there, and quite frankly I don't need to court the praise most of these youtube users are after.

I am quite certain many will brand me a fraud because I refuse to prove myself, they are more than welcome to do that.
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Oh come on TB, let's see if you can 'walk the walk' :p
 
As someone who has been a Parelli student and worked with my horses to a fairly high level of liberty, I have to say hand on heart that not all of it was relationship, there were elements of trained compulsion in there as well. With one of my horses the liberty was great and very easy to train and direct because he had a real natural aptitude for it. The other though was not so amenable and so really his responses, even at the "level 3" liberty point when able to work in an open field with other horses, were more trained.

I make no claims about what I can or can't do at liberty because it is not a big interest for me now with my current horses, so no videos. I wish I'd realised when I was a Parelli student how much I would regret not giving people a video camera and asking them to record for me though. I have one video on You Tube, but it's on-line work. I'm not secretive about what I'm doing now though, and there are photos and clinic write-ups about that include me and my horses.
 
Pale Rider said:
Why completely ridiculous, yes you can do it a number of ways, but if someone wanted to learn Parelli, why not? It's the same as me saying, 'clicker training, how ridiculous, there are other ways to do it.'

I agree that liberty is just you and the horse.
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Pale Rider - you missed my point. I meant the girl was being ridiculous becuase her reason for wanting to do Parelli was that she wanted to be able to make her horse lift its feet by pointing a stick at them. That makes no sense becuase it's not a reason to get into parelli; the horse picking up its feet by pointing a stick at it can be achieved in all manner of ways. you could, for example, use some fairly awful methods including hobbles and whips and things. you could simply tap your horse's foot every day when you're picking them out and get further and further away each time. you could use a clicker, you could use parelli.

Obviously if she has other reasons to get into Parelli that's fair enough - but my point was that what we need to be assessing is the method itself, and not what appears to be an end result/resulting behaviour, because they can be achieved in all manner of ways - some fairly awful and some very kind. the same is true of liberty work - i am sure it would be possible to subdue a horse in any number of horrible ways and have it still 'perform' at liberty.
 
Tinypony said:
Forgive me for being cynical, but so many people make claims about what they can do bareback and bridleless and at liberty, but we never see any proof. Can anyone who isn't a nh student here just go out and video themselves one day doing some things like this. Just to put their money where their mouths are?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAfIT_RYIoY&feature=youtu.be
Or, if you wanted to do something along these lines, I'd forgive the use of a neck rope...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow2yDdRK_Zc&feature=youtu.be

I like the first one best by the way.

Because... love or hate the way they go about getting these results, these nh students are brave enough to video what they are doing and put it up for the world to praise or pull apart as they wish. I think it would be kind of polite for their strongest critics, if they claim that it's all common sense and they can do that anyway without being nh students, to do the same.
Click to expand...

Just got the chance to watch these on my lunchbreak - do you know how the first horse is trained?? Love that one, he looks so happy. Am i the only one that thinks the second horse doesn't look quite so joyful though? ears are slightly back, tail swishing, he is not being very expressive - in the first video, for example, the pony is jumping into his upwards transitions and looks thoroughly like he's enjoying himself. in the second the horse looks like he's doing what he thinks he has to do?? would be interested to hear what others think.

Thanks tinypony!
 
Morgan123 said:
Am i the only one that thinks the second horse doesn't look quite so joyful though? ears are slightly back, tail swishing, he is not being very expressive - in the first video, for example, the pony is jumping into his upwards transitions and looks thoroughly like he's enjoying himself. in the second the horse looks like he's doing what he thinks he has to do?? would be interested to hear what others think.
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I thought exactly the same.
 
Morgan123 said:
yes i know - but my point is that you must study the method and not the resulting behaviour.
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The end result is important, but I agree with you that how it is achieved shouldn't be ignored. To my mind, the journey matters as much as the destination, if not more so.
 
Tinypony said:
This is old, I could criticise it a lot. However, it's where we were then. The more discerning viewer may notice a certain "something" not quite in my mare's movement. This is her last "working" day before she had to retire at the age of 6.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrjlz3taV-Y
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Tiny, what can I say, your horse is beautiful. Thanks for posting.
 
Morgan123 said:
Pale Rider - you missed my point. I meant the girl was being ridiculous becuase her reason for wanting to do Parelli was that she wanted to be able to make her horse lift its feet by pointing a stick at them. That makes no sense becuase it's not a reason to get into parelli; the horse picking up its feet by pointing a stick at it can be achieved in all manner of ways. you could, for example, use some fairly awful methods including hobbles and whips and things. you could simply tap your horse's foot every day when you're picking them out and get further and further away each time. you could use a clicker, you could use parelli.

Obviously if she has other reasons to get into Parelli that's fair enough - but my point was that what we need to be assessing is the method itself, and not what appears to be an end result/resulting behaviour, because they can be achieved in all manner of ways - some fairly awful and some very kind. the same is true of liberty work - i am sure it would be possible to subdue a horse in any number of horrible ways and have it still 'perform' at liberty.
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Morgan I confess, I did miss the point. I understand what you are saying now.
 
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