Natural Horsemanship. Is it just a circus act?

horsey mad matt said:
no it doesn't change my views at all!!! his family history is completely irrelivent ;)
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It IS relevant though Matt, he states that his childhood made him the man he is today, IF that childhood never happened, then he was being dishonest. Now if it was only his mother stating that it never happened, I could give him the benefit of the doubt, but ALL of his siblings claim it was a lie, as do aunts, uncles etc etc
 
His family could not have known?
Yes perhaps he is dishonest I don't discredit that. But how many battered wives are walking around and their friends and family don't know about it?
 
Amaranta said:
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It IS relevant though Matt, he states that his childhood made him the man he is today, IF that childhood never happened, then he was being dishonest. Now if it was only his mother stating that it never happened, I could give him the benefit of the doubt, but ALL of his siblings claim it was a lie, as do aunts, uncles etc etc
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yup i can understand that and i t is many against one, but why would someone make up something like that!! and also he may be being brave admitting it where as his family are too scared to realise that a memeber of their family could do that??
 
Battered wives go to great lengths to hide their situation, battered children however are easier to spot, especially by a mother. You are right though it can and does happen. It was just not the revelation of the book that made me doubt him, other things rang alarm bells too.
 
Meant to add, his brothers were completely unaware also, now that really does it for me. Many abused children do slip under the antennae of adults, but nine times out of ten, their brothers and sisters know all about it.
 
Amaranta said:
Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, there are good and bad points in both NH and 'traditional'.

Personally I use a hybrid between the two, ie, I take the bits I like and discard the ones I don't agree with - from both methods.

However, I really dislike Parelli.
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On the whole do agree with this, not sure I know enough about Parelli except the brilliant marketing! However, not sure if it's Natural Horsemanship, but seen this man work-pretty sure its the same person, was in Oxfordshire. Sent him a horse to train; also saw him work with a nervous friend with bumptious strong TB to go without a bridle up the gallops! http://www.msjump.co.uk/first.html.
 
2Conker said:
On the whole do agree with this, not sure I know enough about Parelli except the brilliant marketing! However, not sure if it's Natural Horsemanship, but seen this man work-pretty sure its the same person, was in Oxfordshire. Sent him a horse to train; also saw him work with a nervous friend with bumptious strong TB to go without a bridle up the gallops! http://www.msjump.co.uk/first.html.
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Aaah Mark Smith! I have had lessons from him. My mare dumped me before a lesson with him so he got on her and she wouldn't move :D I got on and all was fine haha.
Hes a good instructor for some people. But never worked for me, he was too fond of gadgets.
 
2Conker said:
On the whole do agree with this, not sure I know enough about Parelli except the brilliant marketing! However, not sure if it's Natural Horsemanship, but seen this man work-pretty sure its the same person, was in Oxfordshire. Sent him a horse to train; also saw him work with a nervous friend with bumptious strong TB to go without a bridle up the gallops! http://www.msjump.co.uk/first.html.
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Now that's what I call a good horseman!
 
Funnily enough for a man who advocates headcollars out team chasing.. he can be quite heavy handed. But then your not going to agree with every horse I suppose are you..
 
Damnation said:
Funnily enough for a man who advocates headcollars out team chasing.. he can be quite heavy handed. But then your not going to agree with every horse I suppose are you..
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Interesting! Just goes to show all may not be as it first appears!
 
My cousin (only 12) bought some parelli DVDs about a year ago, she has a minature shettie, two welshXarabs from the blue cross and have just taken on a 15.2 mare saved from slaughter. She loves her parelli work and has a huge bond with her horses through it, especially since they're from a re homing venter and a bad background. She can get them to lie down, rear up, sit, and all kinds of things from what's she's learnt from these info packs. I'm going over on Sunday so I'll try and get some pics. So IMO in the right, gentle hands it works, and yes I've seen those horrific parelli videos and I personally do not support them, but it does work for some.
 
Amaranta said:
Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, there are good and bad points in both NH and 'traditional'.

Personally I use a hybrid between the two, ie, I take the bits I like and discard the ones I don't agree with - from both methods.

However, I really dislike Parelli.
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Spot on for me.

The marketing machine behind Parelli leaves me cold. The other thing that I have realised is that the people that I admire the most are those people who are quiet, thoughtful and effective, not egotistical and showy.

Funnily enough, they are usually the ones with the best behaved horses as well! Go figure!
 
Amaranta said:
Interesting! Just goes to show all may not be as it first appears!
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Haha yes. If you look on his website he visits the Isle of Man (where I used to live) and yes I did have some good lessons with him. And he really worked for other people. If you have confidence issues he is the man to go to.
However I didn't like his attitude of "If the horse won't stay round lunge in side reins for 6 weeks". What about getting engagement from behind?
 
Amaranta said:
Now that's what I call a good horseman!
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Guess he wont suit everyone, it was back in the mid 90's and who knows what influences he's come under since then. Been abroad a lot too I think. Just know our youngstert loved to jump for him, was never frightened (he was a natural so maybe he was easy), and I knew friends horse inside out and he was boss of her and soooo strong. He gave the rider great confidence-no gadgets then-and really positive results.
 
Notice how those that get famous tend to have some sob story - terrible childhood or terrible aggressive horse that noone else could handle and was going to be shot?
I however have perfectly well trained circus ponies, and you can too! All you need is my set of books and dvds - only £500 each, and for an extra £1000 you get an apple branch to hit your horse with but only the way it shows in my books - £750 each - if you do it any other way you will not create a true bond with your horse based on fear and dominance.
And now available my very own special apple flavoured headcollars bargain at £3000 each, specially designed to force your horse to behave whilst looking like excitable out of control beasts - buy it now with my set of books and dvds only £800 each, and you will be able to experience a truly harmonious relationship with your horse
 
ridefast said:
notice how those that get famous tend to have some sob story - terrible childhood or terrible aggressive horse that noone else could handle and was going to be shot?
I however have perfectly well trained circus ponies, and you can too! All you need is my set of books and dvds - only £500 each, and for an extra £1000 you get an apple branch to hit your horse with but only the way it shows in my books - £750 each - if you do it any other way you will not create a true bond with your horse based on fear and dominance.
And now available my very own special apple flavoured headcollars bargain at £3000 each, specially designed to force your horse to behave whilst looking like excitable out of control beasts - buy it now with my set of books and dvds only £800 each, and you will be able to experience a truly harmonious relationship with your horse
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roflmao! :D:D:D
 
ridefast said:
Notice how those that get famous tend to have some sob story - terrible childhood or terrible aggressive horse that noone else could handle and was going to be shot?
I however have perfectly well trained circus ponies, and you can too! All you need is my set of books and dvds - only £500 each, and for an extra £1000 you get an apple branch to hit your horse with but only the way it shows in my books - £750 each - if you do it any other way you will not create a true bond with your horse based on fear and dominance.
And now available my very own special apple flavoured headcollars bargain at £3000 each, specially designed to force your horse to behave whilst looking like excitable out of control beasts - buy it now with my set of books and dvds only £800 each, and you will be able to experience a truly harmonious relationship with your horse
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Teehee......cheap at the price. Better not get us on the Frenchman with his displays etc.... Now here was a master (not French)...
"Training a horse is not only gaining his submission as it is often said.
It is also making sure the horse takes pleasure in doing everything that is asked of him"
Nuno Oliveira
 
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MochaFella said:
This is a very different type of training and does involve getting the horse truly on side, which, it has to be said does include being dominant. In the herd, the dominant horse gets the underdog (underhorse?) to do as she orders and excuse me if I prefer to be the dominant partner when I'm dealing with half a ton of stroppy 'I want to do it my way' beastie.
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Yes, but horses don't order other horses to do things, do they? Certainly dominant individuals are able to make other move out of the way with body language that is more or less threatening - but that's it, and I wouldn't call it "ordering", just repelling. A dominant horse can't order a subordinate to go to a particular place, or to come to her, or to start grooming her itchy spot, or bring her food, or lie down, or... You get my drift!

I prefer to keep my neck whole.
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I don't mean to imply anything about your own relationships with horses, which of course I know nothing about. However, I get the impression that what motivates the desire of some people to be "dominant" is a fear of the horse - it's a way of justifying being "bold" towards the horse. I think that's fine if it boosts a person's confidence, because I think confidence is important in dealing effectively with horses. I'm less happy if it leads to the handler being pushy or aggressive, because that's definitely unhelpful in the long run.

I'm talking here about initial training of wild ponies and of re-training of horses who have discovered they hold all the cards in their relationship with their human. In their book it is definitely 'their' human: the horse calls the shots and Monty's methods are a good way for a novice to change that and get back in control.
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I'm all for being in control - in fact, it's essential for safety. In my opinion, one doesn't need to act in a "dominant" way to achieve that.

I am hoping to do the courses that Kelly Marks runs and become an Accredited Monty Roberts trainer, then hopefully I won't keep making the mistakes that I now still make.
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I wish you every success with that. I have a great deal of respect for what IH does, especially through its network of RIs.
 
2Conker said:
"Training a horse is not only gaining his submission as it is often said.
It is also making sure the horse takes pleasure in doing everything that is asked of him"
Nuno Oliveira
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Super quote, 2Conker! Of course, we should not fall into the trap of assuming that Oliveira's idea of 'submission' has anything to do with a subordinate horse's submission to a dominant. A horse takes no pleasure in being pushed around by a dominant.
 
fburton said:
Super quote, 2Conker! Of course, we should not fall into the trap of assuming that Oliveira's idea of 'submission' has anything to do with a subordinate horse's submission to a dominant. A horse takes no pleasure in being pushed around by a dominant.
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Thanks, yes he seems to have been pretty effective. Think submission perhaps is accepting without resistance.
No idea what a horse feels about being dominated, it's their reality of herd life, and survival technique-always seems to be a pecking order in a group of horses. Presumably us humans work with that, or around it.
 
fburton said:
Super quote, 2Conker! Of course, we should not fall into the trap of assuming that Oliveira's idea of 'submission' has anything to do with a subordinate horse's submission to a dominant. A horse takes no pleasure in being pushed around by a dominant.
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Agree here. Words have been a major problem for me especially the D word. :D

I must say I like your use of 'act in a dominant way'. Much more descriptive for me.;)
 
Why oh why does this have to keep being brought up over and over and over and over and over again?

I don't give a damn what Mr Roberts did or had done to him as a child he is a bloody good horseman who has proved his worth time and time again. So what he has made a fortune doing that I would have if I had been in his shoes!

As for pirelli - erm not so sure - some is OK but most is a load of old rubbish and actually quite dangerous.

Personally I pick and choose what works for my horses from a selection of old school and Mr Roberts.

Yawn, yawn, yawn - goes off to look at how far the GN debate got...
 
Have just got in to read the responses to my original post and have found it fascinating how complex each person's reaction is. I must admit my horses will occasionally bash into me (jump into my arms!) to get away from another in the herd who is about to kick or bite them. Something I have heard from some of the NH trainers is to never scratch your horse as it is expected that the lower orders should groom the leaders, not the other way around. I have built more mutual trust through "mutual" scratching and I usually always initiate it! I don't like to use any headcollars that tighten over the nose or indeed push studs into the poll. I do, however, have a beautifully soft non tightening halter with a single heavyish clip and a long rope, which is ideal for youngsters as you have more control when loading or unloading, in the sense you don't run out of rope! I had an NH trainer over to help me load a nervous horse and all she did was flick the leather end of the rope into the horse's face and repeatedly directly into the eye, which I immediately stopped. I know there are some good parts to NH and traditional methods and as I want to raise healthy, happy and well adjusted youngsters for humans to ride (and had no complaints to date) I earn respect from my youngsters through trust, clear communication...yes and what is that I hear you ask.....fairness and firmness. Yes I have had to walk away when I feel my patience is running out and come back when I have calmed down but I don't really want to bully, force, humiliate, make them entertain me. I want a partnership where we both want to be around eachother. Horses that canter over when they see me because they want to interact. I never give titbits as I don't believe in bribery. Although, hypocritically, I will offer feed in the lorry or trailer to show them it is a pleasant place to be and then ensure as smooth a journey as possible to build their confidence. When I watch these programmes on TV I see horses with submissive heads, ears constantly going backwards and forwards, not knowing what "trick" they might have to perform next. I don't visit the circus because I don't like to see animals being made to "perform acts". I am sure I will now be hit with the dressage stick! I agree with some and disagree with others but I feel we need to bring the marketing hype that is so evident and look at the welfare of the horse. As has been posted above, tools in the wrong hands can be catastrophic..for both handler/rider and horse. Is it maybe time for us to embrace the goods bits of all methods and package that up and not sell it for a fortune but offer it as an olive branch to those who need our help, both horse and human?
 
mcnaughty said:
Why oh why does this have to keep being brought up over and over and over and over and over again?

I don't give a damn what Mr Roberts did or had done to him as a child he is a bloody good horseman who has proved his worth time and time again. So what he has made a fortune doing that I would have if I had been in his shoes!

As for pirelli - erm not so sure - some is OK but most is a load of old rubbish and actually quite dangerous.

Personally I pick and choose what works for my horses from a selection of old school and Mr Roberts.

Yawn, yawn, yawn - goes off to look at how far the GN debate got...
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I am not having a pop at any individual as there are now so many individuals who claim to be NH Trainers and many more to be seen on DVD, TV and via the Internet. All of them have some aspect I don't like sadly.
 
PuddingandPie said:
Something I have heard from some of the NH trainers is to never scratch your horse as it is expected that the lower orders should groom the leaders, not the other way around. I have built more mutual trust through "mutual" scratching and I usually always initiate it!
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Tickle therapy works a treat :)

I've never had a horse that didn't enjoy a bit of mutual grooming, they love it. I almost always initiate the groom, in-fact I had to stop one horse initiating the grooming himself and I'd only tickle him at my own initiation as he got rather demanding with his grooming, he wanted to be tickled permanently!

I too have been told by a NH trainer that you shouldn't mutually groom your horse. His reasoning behind this was that horses don't touch each other when together in the field, I don't know what horses he has observed but mine are always grooming/touching each other, even the ones who aren't the greatest of friends groom each other.

And the herd leader grooms them all and he grooms them often :)
 
I also see no reason not to groom your horse, you only have to watch a pair bond in the field to see that horses do in fact touch each other whilst in the herd. Interestingly, it is the herd leader in my bunch who normally instigates mutual grooming.

One thing I do a lot is scratch the poll and massage the ears, without fail the horses love it, massaging the tips of the ears also relaxes a worried horse.
 
I like Kelly Marks and Monty, Richard Maxwell and Parelli ground work. I do find Pat Parelli too much of a showman for my liking and Monty Roberts can come accross as a bit ' wishy washy' in his dialogue, but I have had much more success with my mare using NH methods as she was messed up big time by ' convential ' training.

I do find thease kind of posts frustrating though as the anti's usually think that NH is all about one person and it's not.
 
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AndySpooner said:
Small point, herd leaders are always mares, obviously no geldings in a wild herd.
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Single sex herds have leaders too, and as no horses in the UK are truly "wild" it is perfectly possible for there to be a herd leader who is a gelding. One of mine is most definitely leader, he is not dominant though, he is just their elected leader. Even the colts he has lived with respected him and didn't question his leadership. Mares adore him and when he has lived in a mixed sex herd (at present he is in a single sex herd) he has taken the "lead stallion" role beside the lead mare. He and his mare governed their herd in partnership.
 
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