Amaranta
Well-Known Member
Actually I think that this post shows that people do NOT think of NH as one person's method!
Natural Horsemanship. Is it just a circus act?
- Thread starter PuddingandPie
- Start date
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
Cannot really compare wild herds with domesticated herds, the dynamics are very different, but what you normally find is that dominant horses will support a lead mare. Confusion often arises when people confuse dominant behaviour with leadership.
2Conker
Well-Known Member
Interesting; in a dog pack, apparently the alpha male and female may be supported by others, who also keep order in the pack-not sure if they negotiate though!
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team barney
Well-Known Member
As I said my herd leader isn't dominant at all, he is quiet and understated in his leadership he doesn't dominate his herd in the slightest, he leads them. He has lived with very dominant horses in the past and he ignores their aggression whilst still protecting his herd and quelling their leadership challenges.
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
Being hunting animals dog packs are very different.
Horses being hunted have to cope with this as well.
Dominance doesn't always involve aggression though.
A less dominant horse may display aggressive behaviour for a number of reasons, even fear, this doesn't make it dominant though in the eyes of the rest of the herd.
Horses being hunted have to cope with this as well.
Dominance doesn't always involve aggression though.
A less dominant horse may display aggressive behaviour for a number of reasons, even fear, this doesn't make it dominant though in the eyes of the rest of the herd.
ridefast
Well-Known Member
You can learn how to mutually groom your horse whilst still remaining a passive aggressive dominant leader, if you buy my book and dvd - how to dominate your horse in secret - only £900, and now you get the new bouncy apple ball, to use to distract your horse when he's in attack mode so you can make a quick getaway - only £5000 with free training dvd. DO NOT USE ANY OTHER BOUNCY BALL THEY WILL NOT HAVE THE SAME EFFECT
Special offer - Apple stick, headcollar and bouncy ball selling today for only £8000000 and training pack thrown in for a mere £20000, offer ends in 5 seconds
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TicTac
Well-Known Member
Katie Price riding at the Horse of The Year Show, now that was a circus act!
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
Very good, take it the prices are post inflation. (of the ball)
ridefast
Well-Known Member
yeah, VAT increases and all that. Still a bargain though, the air to inflate the ball is free
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
Failed, sorry nothing free in this game.
Sussexbythesea
Well-Known Member
I'm really interested in this issue of using dominance to control a horse having just read Horses Never Lie by Mark Rashid. I've been thinking more about how - yes I can make my horse do things but I'd like him to do it willingly when asked rather than with a resigned or even sometimes resentful attitude. I'm certainly going to be looking out for the "trys".
I don't think it matters so much what your preference for training is so long as you don't become blinkered and so indoctrinated that you stop questionning what you are being told.
Fellewell
Well-Known Member
I don't think horses ever truly see humans as herd leaders (try hanging on to yours if another horse gallops past). What they do pick up on is that there are benefits to be had from letting a human hang around and occasionally complying with their requests. They are naturally biddable like dogs, Border Collies for example, soon become obsessive about being stroked but it's only because we have trained them to be so. They know it pleases us and they use it as currency.
Natch
Well-Known Member
I agree a lot of "natural" trainers no longer have the horse's best interests at heart, and are all about the showmanship. I think the "natural" in horsemanship has completely lost its meaning in many cases. It was only ever originally intended to mean training centred around the horse, not the goal.
However, I don't think that properly done natural horsemanship means your horse loses personnality - I can name 4 horses off the top of my head who have come out of their shells following ground work NH style.
I enjoy playing about with tarpaulin, standing on things, balls etc because its a bit of fun, and gets your horse thinking out of the box. There's a lot to be said for a horse who will stand on various different surfaces happily.
Its one of many ways of doing things, and although I am a fan of NH in general, I think some (many?) of those who are most popular and high profile are those whose feet are sadly not still on the ground. In my experience the really good (natural) horsemen and women are those who get on with it quietly, low profile.
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AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
I think that it is a trap lots fall into whatever the ethos, of ending up with a resentful, resigned or even bolshi horse. Its normally the task oriented handler, who becomes more focused on the task. It's got to be interesting and fun, the proper balance between lots of leadership and little dominance. (Expect a lot, accept a little and reward the slightest try.)
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
Have to say that I agree with this. To me using the word 'natural' is a complete mis noma when talking about horse training.
I really don't know why people came up with natural, but we appear to be stuck with it now.
Tormenta
Well-Known Member
Not altogether true in respect to gender in domestic herds although I agree with your theory in dominants supporting a leader. I have two very dominant mares who will absolutely use teeth, hinds and very expressive body language to make their positions known, however, the leader in our small herd is a quiet, laid back gelding who uses none of the latter to get his point across that he is leader and has been for six years. A flick of his ear, a slight turn of the head, a slow in his pace or body movement is all it takes for him to remind everyone of where they should be and how the dynamics work, every single horse who has passed through or is still here has never questioned him. He is very attuned to other horses who are older and frailer or who are ill or even new to the herd, he protects them from the more healthier and dominant members. Whatever he is, it has been intriguing to watch over the years I have had him.
Natch
Well-Known Member
"reward the slightest try"
If only everyone in the horse world would do this, things would be so much easier/quicker/less stressful all round/more positive, take your pick!
If only everyone in the horse world would do this, things would be so much easier/quicker/less stressful all round/more positive, take your pick!
Tormenta
Well-Known Member
I have to say, I absolutely agree with that.
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
Not altogether true in respect to gender in domestic herds although I agree with your theory in dominants supporting a leader. I have two very dominant mares who will absolutely use teeth, hinds and very expressive body language to make their positions known, however, the leader in our small herd is a quiet, laid back gelding who uses none of the latter to get his point across that he is leader and has been for six years. A flick of his ear, a slight turn of the head, a slow in his pace or body movement is all it takes for him to remind everyone of where they should be and how the dynamics work, every single horse who has passed through or is still here has never questioned him. He is very attuned to other horses who are older and frailer or who are ill or even new to the herd, he protects them from the more healthier and dominant members. Whatever he is, it has been intriguing to watch over the years I have had him.
Lots of work done on the wild horse herd. I tend to think that in the domestic scenario we are not dealing with a herd in the true sense, more a group of unrelated horses in a hotch potch of gender, ages etc.
In the domestic horse, I see horses coping with what they are given and making the best of things.
Tormenta
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the basic reply. I actually expected better. I do not think for one moment my horses (who live out all year 24/7 on plenty grazing) being differing breeds are just 'coping'. There is still a definitive hierarchy there. What do you suggest for domestic herds then?
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
Lol. Perhaps coping is not strictly what I mean, but a wild herd are normally based on a family group, from the female side, sister, aunt daughter etc. Stallions change from time to time. Colts eventually excluded.
Domestic horses even in the circumstances you describe are not in the same sort of group though they may be friends or tolerate each other.
Little chance for a filly to apprentice a lead mare as happens in a proper herd.
Domestic horses even in the circumstances you describe are not in the same sort of group though they may be friends or tolerate each other.
Little chance for a filly to apprentice a lead mare as happens in a proper herd.
Millyard Rejects
Well-Known Member
Had a family group of horses many years ago. Mare with son and daughter,then grand daughter and great granddaughter. NONE of the filly's followed the path to herd leader? in fact the mare been the boss for so long gave them to much protection. When she was pts the herd was not taken over by her offspring but a much younger unrelated welsh pony-much shorter and less physical than the irish draughts she lived with!
As far as the "natural horsmanship"- please stop using NH that really does mean NATIONAL HUNT to us old stick in the muds!
Not keen on waving sticks at any horse or pony and my bunch of rescues would have had a meltdown if approached in that way!
Have picked bits and pieces from several trainers over the years- none would be soley classed as monty roberts fans or parelli fans but a mish mash of them as per the horse.
I think horsmanship is a mis used word.
Horsmanship is working with your horse,in a manner that doesnt scare,hurt or threaten the animal.And encouraging and praise whenever it does as required should be any philosophy for any trainer?
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
Horsemanship not forcemanship isn't a bad saying I think.
The problem with domestic horse groups is that there is little to challenge them, on a day to day basis where they need to cover long distances for grazing water salt or shelter. In their wild state lead by a mare their existence relies on her knowledge leadership and experience.
Compared to these challenges the domestic horses have no need to develop the complex matriacal relationships.
The problem with domestic horse groups is that there is little to challenge them, on a day to day basis where they need to cover long distances for grazing water salt or shelter. In their wild state lead by a mare their existence relies on her knowledge leadership and experience.
Compared to these challenges the domestic horses have no need to develop the complex matriacal relationships.
Millyard Rejects
Well-Known Member
Would agree but family units arent the norm so Matriarchs arent allowed to develop and function as they would in the wild.
But then "natural horsmanship" doesnt really promote this when they suggest taking horses from their herd for long periods of time? but then traditional forms of horse keeping also advocate this?
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
As already stated Natural Horsemanship is perhaps a mis noma, but, we're stuck with it, as Bill Dorrance himself said, 'It is not natural for horses to be around people, and its not natural for a person to sit on a horses back. When we use these words we speak about what's natural for the horse to do within his own boundaries.'
Regarding the question of the 'circus act', where people are critical of the demonstrations, which do sometimes resemble the circus, probably because of the use of the pedestal and or the big green ball.
Boil it all down and the basic art of NH is the application of pressure to the horse with the immidiate release of the pressure when the desired response has occurred.
This is totally understood by horses as it is by the application and release of pressure that they communicate. The pressure comes in phases, from the lightest, by way of a look, to actual contact.
This is the attempt to do what is natural for the horse within his own boundaries.
So what are these horses trying to achieve by the application of all this pressure? Nothing more than causing the subjected horse to move its feet. As soon as the feet move the pressure is released, and it is the release that teaches the horse to move.
We have all seen a horse move anothers forequarters by applying pressure to the neck, this may be as soft as a whisper or as harsh as a bite., depending on the willingness to move.
Asking a horse to place its feet on a pedestal is nothing more than the demonstration of what can be achieved by the appropreate application of pressure and the release. The fact that it may look like what we have come to view as a trick doesn't mean that that is what it is.
I've noticed that people seem to view the Monty Roberts approach to NH training, as perhaps more acceptable than that of Pat Parelli. My own view is that having watched both, Monty Roberts uses far more pressure than Pat Parelli and the release is often slow to come.
I say this because, from the very early 'round pen' demonstrations by Roberts the horse was sent in circles by the application of pressure. The pressure came from the mans stance, the fixing of eye contact and very often putting a line out towards the horse. I would argue that this pressure on the horse is extream, as it was moving its feet often at a fast pace (the horse would expect that the pressure should come off at this point) , but the pressure does not come off until the horse shows signs of submission. The lowering of the head, the licking and chewing, submissive foal behaviour.
The horse quickly positions itself next to the man and mirrors his movements (join up), from this position the horse avoids the application of pressure. Were it not for the high walls or fences of the round pen then the horse would have jumped out and run off, this though is not an option.
The application of pressure by Monty Roberts has been refined by the use of the Be Nice and Dually head collars, which are nothing more than a way of applying harsh pressure to the horses face until it moves its feet forward, but even here in my view the release is not fast enough.
Parelli on the other hand does not ask for the submission of the horse and the pressure is released as soon as the feet move. Because the Parelli demonstrations always take place in an arena with a 4 foot fence, no real containment of the horse, illustrates that the horse does not feel under so much pressure that it wants to jump the fence and leave.
The application of pressure is not confined to NH, indeed all aspects of traditional horse training is the application of pressure to the horse. The riders legs and hands apply pressure to achieve the desired movement of the feet. When the desired movement is achieved the pressure should be released. The use of a snaffle bit, widely referred to as a mild or kind bit, exerts massive pressure on the horses jaw with its nut cracker action. How often is the pressure not released by the heavy handed rider.
My conclusion is that NH is not a circus act, far from it. The danger lies with the mis application of pressure and the lack of the release. All the horse can do for us is to move his feet either at a walk, trot or canter in the direction of our choosing. What some aspects of Natural Horsemanship are attempting to demonstrate is what level of pressure to apply and when to release that pressure.
Regarding the question of the 'circus act', where people are critical of the demonstrations, which do sometimes resemble the circus, probably because of the use of the pedestal and or the big green ball.
Boil it all down and the basic art of NH is the application of pressure to the horse with the immidiate release of the pressure when the desired response has occurred.
This is totally understood by horses as it is by the application and release of pressure that they communicate. The pressure comes in phases, from the lightest, by way of a look, to actual contact.
This is the attempt to do what is natural for the horse within his own boundaries.
So what are these horses trying to achieve by the application of all this pressure? Nothing more than causing the subjected horse to move its feet. As soon as the feet move the pressure is released, and it is the release that teaches the horse to move.
We have all seen a horse move anothers forequarters by applying pressure to the neck, this may be as soft as a whisper or as harsh as a bite., depending on the willingness to move.
Asking a horse to place its feet on a pedestal is nothing more than the demonstration of what can be achieved by the appropreate application of pressure and the release. The fact that it may look like what we have come to view as a trick doesn't mean that that is what it is.
I've noticed that people seem to view the Monty Roberts approach to NH training, as perhaps more acceptable than that of Pat Parelli. My own view is that having watched both, Monty Roberts uses far more pressure than Pat Parelli and the release is often slow to come.
I say this because, from the very early 'round pen' demonstrations by Roberts the horse was sent in circles by the application of pressure. The pressure came from the mans stance, the fixing of eye contact and very often putting a line out towards the horse. I would argue that this pressure on the horse is extream, as it was moving its feet often at a fast pace (the horse would expect that the pressure should come off at this point) , but the pressure does not come off until the horse shows signs of submission. The lowering of the head, the licking and chewing, submissive foal behaviour.
The horse quickly positions itself next to the man and mirrors his movements (join up), from this position the horse avoids the application of pressure. Were it not for the high walls or fences of the round pen then the horse would have jumped out and run off, this though is not an option.
The application of pressure by Monty Roberts has been refined by the use of the Be Nice and Dually head collars, which are nothing more than a way of applying harsh pressure to the horses face until it moves its feet forward, but even here in my view the release is not fast enough.
Parelli on the other hand does not ask for the submission of the horse and the pressure is released as soon as the feet move. Because the Parelli demonstrations always take place in an arena with a 4 foot fence, no real containment of the horse, illustrates that the horse does not feel under so much pressure that it wants to jump the fence and leave.
The application of pressure is not confined to NH, indeed all aspects of traditional horse training is the application of pressure to the horse. The riders legs and hands apply pressure to achieve the desired movement of the feet. When the desired movement is achieved the pressure should be released. The use of a snaffle bit, widely referred to as a mild or kind bit, exerts massive pressure on the horses jaw with its nut cracker action. How often is the pressure not released by the heavy handed rider.
My conclusion is that NH is not a circus act, far from it. The danger lies with the mis application of pressure and the lack of the release. All the horse can do for us is to move his feet either at a walk, trot or canter in the direction of our choosing. What some aspects of Natural Horsemanship are attempting to demonstrate is what level of pressure to apply and when to release that pressure.
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eahotson
Well-Known Member
Room for thought there Andy.How many horses that are called kick along plods (and therefore suitable for novices, another subject altogether) have been taught to be like that because they are quite phlegmatic by nature.Someone rides them, they walk slowly and the rider keeps onnagging them with their heels and never stop.No release of pressure.The horse learns to ignore it.Then more extreme methods are needed.When people talk about difficult horses to ride, no one ever mentions these but they are difficult in their own way.
AndySpooner
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree, probably one of the most frustrating. I had a highland like this.
These horses are thinkers and they use their brain against the rider. You end up expending more effort in an hours ride than the horse does in a month.
There are ways to motivate a horse like this, its easy when you know how and doesn't involve whips spurs or anything to put pressure on it.
These horses are thinkers and they use their brain against the rider. You end up expending more effort in an hours ride than the horse does in a month.
There are ways to motivate a horse like this, its easy when you know how and doesn't involve whips spurs or anything to put pressure on it.
Natch
Well-Known Member
Interesting discussion going on here
Regarding NH, the clue is in the title surely millyard rejects, I think your example of a little pony taking over herd boss is a good example of andy's point that domesticated horses have to make do in the herds we choose for them. Nothing about domesticated horses is truly natural, but I think the principal of using behaviour a horse would use if left to their own devices is a sound theory, whatever you call it. In evolution terms domestication has only happened very recently, and wild instincts endures even when we have artificially selected for speed, endurance, physique and temperament.
Horsemanship is surely only the art done either well or badly. Its GOOD horsemanship we should all strive for, whatever we call it and whichever methods we use waving a stick without purpose or sensitivity is surely bad horsemanship, using a stick in an intelligent manner in order to first habituate a horse to it, then use it appropriately as a tool to aid your work with a horse is surely very different.
It doesnt matter to me what you call it or how you do it, but it matters to me that you do it in an effective and safe manner which is not detrimental to the horse, and ideally is centred around him, not your end goal.
Regarding NH, the clue is in the title surely
millyard rejects, I think your example of a little pony taking over herd boss is a good example of andy's point that domesticated horses have to make do in the herds we choose for them. Nothing about domesticated horses is truly natural, but I think the principal of using behaviour a horse would use if left to their own devices is a sound theory, whatever you call it. In evolution terms domestication has only happened very recently, and wild instincts endures even when we have artificially selected for speed, endurance, physique and temperament.Horsemanship is surely only the art done either well or badly. Its GOOD horsemanship we should all strive for, whatever we call it and whichever methods we use
waving a stick without purpose or sensitivity is surely bad horsemanship, using a stick in an intelligent manner in order to first habituate a horse to it, then use it appropriately as a tool to aid your work with a horse is surely very different.It doesnt matter to me what you call it or how you do it, but it matters to me that you do it in an effective and safe manner which is not detrimental to the horse, and ideally is centred around him, not your end goal.
PuddingandPie
Well-Known Member
Horsmanship is working with your horse,in a manner that doesnt scare,hurt or threaten the animal.And encouraging and praise whenever it does as required should be any philosophy for any trainer?
__________________
No truer word written!! I would also add whenever it/he/she tries as well
__________________
No truer word written!! I would also add whenever it/he/she tries as well
Sussexbythesea
Well-Known Member
Please Please tell me how? My horse rarely breaks a sweat when I ride unlike me
Does it work if you want forwardness to do dressage?