Natural Horsemanship. Is it just a circus act?

That's just like my trainer fitzaud2, black and White boundaries, no grey areas, works a treat, mines Melanie Watson, she's doing a tv programme soon, if you google her you can find her website xx
 
nicky_jess said:
That's just like my trainer fitzaud2, black and White boundaries, no grey areas, works a treat, mines Melanie Watson, she's doing a tv programme soon, if you google her you can find her website xx
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Thanks, I'll have a look, black and white is so good, horses respect that, in my experience, they thrive on routine, and knowing whats good and whats not. I'm going to look at Melanies website now, thanks again!!
 
Now see, to me, black and white, setting boundaries and being the herd leader is not restricted to the 'natural' movement, it is plain old common sense IMHO :)
 
Amaranta said:
Now see, to me, black and white, setting boundaries and being the herd leader is not restricted to the 'natural' movement, it is plain old common sense IMHO :)
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You are right, but lots of people dont see it like that, most of natural horsemanship is common sense, but lots of people call it bulls**t, where as it's not, it is COMMON SENSE, it makes me laugh that so called knowledgeable people will ridicule it, when, in fact, it is common sense, and lots of it you know, and then there's more you "didn't" know, but when you think about it, it makes total sense. Even if you only have 2 or 3 lessons with "natural horsemanship", it gives you the confidence to go with what is common sense rather than the silly way it "should" be done!!
 
PuddingandPie said:
This is the very essence of my concern! Watching Horse and Country TV last night the "Australian" repeatedly said "Point, Cluck, Whack it!" "If it keeps showing you its rear end then thrash it!" What hope is there when it it is being filmed in a large indoor venue full of "supporters" and available for all of us in the UK to watch, whether we are able to make a judgement or not? The "Down Under" trainers are more frightening than any of those in the UK..but then how many of those that we see in the UK are actually based here? Domination and submission seems to be key to these trainers and it takes all forms of horrific "no pain, no gain" behaviours. Maybe I am old fashioned and prefer a less "intrusive" methodology, which would change naturally for each individual as no size fits all. Maybe I don't achieve results as quickly as others, but I do have sane, trusting and willing horses as a result. As the leading international horse transporter once said to me "I would rather have a plane load of TB stallions than one polo pony newly broken in from Argentina!" Don't ask me to explain as I used to live there!
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Exactly, you can't train every horse with the same set method, any more than you can trim every hoof to the same degree angles, neither style treatment will make a sound horse.

I train all my horses to suit their personalities as I want to retain their individual characters, I don't want a yard full of robots. My only training technique is kindness and patience (and I don't just talk the talk unlike some of the "big names" out there). I don't see the need to carry a whip at all times and I don't use pressure halters or knotted rope halters.

Most natural horsemanship is based entirely on negative reinforcement, I have even seen a video in which Parelli claims horses don't understand praise!!!!
 
its true that most training, not just nh, is based on negative reinforcement. If u ask a horse to back up with pressure on his nose, then release, this is negative reinforcement.
All horses comunicate this way too. If a horse is bold in a herd, the lead horse will tell them off with a swift bite or kick, or simply just moving the horse away with its body language. This is also negative reinforcement.

But horses do understand praise. I think we all know this. The effectiveness of clicker training proves this. But in all espects of horse training, rewards are important. Even if its a kind, soothing voice, or a rub and a scratch, or treat, its an important tool for training.
 
Well although I have lived my life the BHS way and in terms of safety this has always served me very well. I have to hang my head and admit that when I took on a 580kg 'salmon on a lead rope' I did trawl the web for some cowboy wisdom and some of it's great. Not the famous ones either (you have to pay for that). No, the internet is choc full of our American cousins and some of them are OK.
 
Just for the record
Tom Dorrance was the Father of Natural Horsemasnship he has a great book called True Unity ISBN 1-884995-09-8.
Monty Roberts was apprentice to Bill Dorrance Tom’s brother.
Ray Hunt worked with Tom Dorrance and Parelli went to Ray Hunt Clinics
Pressure halters were used by cowboys in extreme situations to get a horse to fight its way out of a bog not for ground work schooling. The level of communication in Join-Up is screaming not whispering. I also think there are some good circus trainers out there.
 
AndySpooner said:
Better Half,

Totally agree about join up, far too much, far too long in most cases.
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Not that I've ever performed it but surely once again it's down to HOW it is done and with which horses and owners?
It's like saying round pens, advance and retreat, clickers or bridles are bad? It's not the tool it's the skill of the user that really matters surely? :confused:

This is the problem imo with these sort of discussions, people focus on a person or tool and slate it so others are pushed into defending it... the concepts that are really important imo get lost in the tit for tat 'that is bad or he/she is bad' OH NO 'it is great and he/she is great' LOL
 
True Amanda, the reason I do not do it the same as M.R. Is because there is never an escape for the horse from the pressure.

Even when trailer loading they use a pressure halter and surround the trailer with fencing.

So I guess I don't ike the concept of join up.
 
AndySpooner said:
So I guess I don't ike the concept of join up.
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That's fair enough. I take it it's your feeling that the horse can't escape from 'pressure' and there are many who feel the same. However I don't see it like that myself, imo a horse can feel very pressured in an open field and certainly in a stable. Again to me it's how you use that pressure and how responsive you can be to the horse. It could be argued that the presence of a human no matter what distance (well so long as the horse can hear/see them) can pressure a horse so it's hard for a horse to 'escape pressure' from us imo. For me learning about horses responses and how they are a species and as individuals react to pressure is crucial to getting my comminication and timing and volume right and often with horses the easiest and simplest way is some form of pressure. (and release of course).

It's simple for me to right this stuff but I'm still learning and hopfully improving my listening (reading of horses) and timing.
 
fitzaud2 said:
She's fab, no nonsense natural horsemanship, that basically reckons you have to be the "dominant" mare, create boundaries, and not have your horse over step them.
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Just wanted to point out that while one can indeed create and maintain boundaries by emulating a dominant mare, one can also create and maintain boundaries without doing this. Being seen as dominant mare isn't obligatory (and some would argue that can cause more problems than it solves).
 
fburton said:
Just wanted to point out that while one can indeed create and maintain boundaries by emulating a dominant mare, one can also create and maintain boundaries without doing this. Being seen as dominant mare isn't obligatory (and some would argue that can cause more problems than it solves).
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Totally agree, to set yourself up as the dominant horse is often just setting yourself up to be challenged.
 
amandap said:
That's fair enough. I take it it's your feeling that the horse can't escape from 'pressure' and there are many who feel the same. However I don't see it like that myself, imo a horse can feel very pressured in an open field and certainly in a stable. Again to me it's how you use that pressure and how responsive you can be to the horse. It could be argued that the presence of a human no matter what distance (well so long as the horse can hear/see them) can pressure a horse so it's hard for a horse to 'escape pressure' from us imo. For me learning about horses responses and how they are a species and as individuals react to pressure is crucial to getting my comminication and timing and volume right and often with horses the easiest and simplest way is some form of pressure. (and release of course).

It's simple for me to right this stuff but I'm still learning and hopfully improving my listening (reading of horses) and timing.
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Everything you have said here I broadly agree with. As pressure is the way horses communicate then obviously the subtlety of application and of course the release, is the quest of everyone using these techniques. The lightest of application is then the 'whisper,' surely the very thing we are attempting to achieve.

Obviously horses working with us at this level are not the raw young things which are usually involved in 'join up' . Perhaps as I have progressed through the study and application of natural horsemanship, I have become more aware of the levels of pressure applied, how little is required, and baulk slightly at the higher amounts used.
 
fburton said:
Just wanted to point out that while one can indeed create and maintain boundaries by emulating a dominant mare, one can also create and maintain boundaries without doing this. Being seen as dominant mare isn't obligatory (and some would argue that can cause more problems than it solves).
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A confusion of dominance with leadership, perhaps?
 
AndySpooner said:
Pudding, Don't tar all Australians with the same brush, Anderson is totally different to Halfpenny.

The depth of knowledge here really needs to be much improved, most criticisms are half baked, ill informed or some personal axe to grind.

No trainer or method is perfect, live with it, it will drive you mad if you don't.
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I was not wishing to tar all Australians with the same brush and I apologise if I didn't make this clear...it's just that whenever I see a TV programme I am generally rather shocked at some of the methods shown that are portrayed to be kind and right to the horse. There are all sorts of people in the UK who purport to be a "practioner of natural methods" but don't always show the kindness and restraint/knowledge that I would expect. I know there are good and bad ones...but to the person who is being "bible bashed" at some demo...how can they make an informed judgement if they don't all ready have a vat of information/knowledge to make a choice. I nearly got sucked in and realised as the day progressed that the particular person in question that day was not one I would wish to follow or recommend. But at least I had the knowledge to know it was wrong...as I said I nearly got sucked in.
 
AndySpooner said:
Perhaps as I have progressed through the study and application of natural horsemanship, I have become more aware of the levels of pressure applied, how little is required, and baulk slightly at the higher amounts used.
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I see where you're coming from totally. As I have become better at reading horses and asking them and training them (still a long way to go) I have found that I need generally less and less overt pressure. I believe this is mainly due to me becoming better in seeing the smaller responses from my horses. However, how much pressure I apply does to a large extent depend on circumstances and setting. I hope to work towards my lot understanding what I want and listening to my direction at all times and in all circumstances. Of course this is something I may never achieve as I don't have control of external influences but I hope to work towards this.
I'm rambling now and forgetting the point I was trying to make... lol
Oh yes pressure and the level of it. I worry when people say they never wish to use higher pressure because for me denying that something may be required in for eg. emegency circumstances or with an individual horse in a given situation, is to me to deny our personal 'control' of pressure. Probably seen as confused or rationalized thinking to many but that's how I see it. I try to 'own' the pressure I use or don't use and if I do over do it I learn and hopefully do better next time.

Make any sense of that? lol
 
I'm beginning to wonder if one of my main roles with my horses is that of teacher? As opposed to leader or partner etc.
 
PuddingandPie said:
I was not wishing to tar all Australians with the same brush and I apologise if I didn't make this clear...it's just that whenever I see a TV programme I am generally rather shocked at some of the methods shown that are portrayed to be kind and right to the horse. There are all sorts of people in the UK who purport to be a "practioner of natural methods" but don't always show the kindness and restraint/knowledge that I would expect. I know there are good and bad ones...but to the person who is being "bible bashed" at some demo...how can they make an informed judgement if they don't all ready have a vat of information/knowledge to make a choice. I nearly got sucked in and realised as the day progressed that the particular person in question that day was not one I would wish to follow or recommend. But at least I had the knowledge to know it was wrong...as I said I nearly got sucked in.
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There really is no need to apologize to me, but thanks. I am guilty of letting my frustrations at times, result in a less than gracious post, which I regret.

The whole buisness of training horses should be centred on the horse but so often other issues have such an influence that what is trying to be achieved is lost. Whether the traditional or natural (I do dislike these tags) approach is taken, the horse is the most important factor in everything, and many many traditional trainers achieve spectacular results without the integrity of the horse being lost.

My personal preference is for the natural approach in training horses, as I suppose is plain, but this cannot be done without training the person, and this in my experience is so hard. A horse trained in natural methods is never a compatable match for a traditional horseperson, but to train the person in these methods needs commitment and a willingness to think outside the accepted perceptions of horse training.

Without Monty Roberts and Pat Parelli, this particular type of natural horsemanship would not have the profile it does in the UK, and the myriad of other trainers who perhaps have benefitted from their work would be little known and in little demand. Indeed these threads would never exist. Of course with the high profile comes the microscopic analysis of everything they do and say. The whole science of natural horsemanship training is constantly evolving and techniques can be altered, improved or even abandoned as understanding and experience increases.

The video clips of the last 20yrs are constantly played, replayed, analysed and commented upon, but none of this is set in stone, indeed everyone treats horses differently now than we did all those years ago. By their very nature horses will always present a challenge or exhibit some behaviour or other which will thwart even the most experienced, and this is all part of the fascination of horses.

If anyone wants to be a part of natural horse training, they have a perceived idea of how they and their horse will relate and interact. How their mearest thought will somehow result in a fantastic soft response from their horse.
To acheive this takes time and training and technique and we all have to start somewhere. I like this quote 'In working with people and trying to help them with something, I find it isn't easy for me to get them to work in the area where it seems they need to work. They keep trying to work at the end result. - Tom Dorrance

So when we see a trainer putting pressure on a horse at the start of its training, we must not forget that the end result will be the lightest of pressure, a little way down the line when acceptance and understanding have been achieved.

Whatever level of pressure you see watch for the release, it is the release that teaches and the release is the reward for the slightest try.
 
fburton said:
I like it! :D (Well I would, wouldn't I? :o)
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:D I'm still looking for that elusive one word that descibes the Horsemanship I aspire to. lol


AndySpooner said:
Whatever level of pressure you see watch for the release, it is the release that teaches and the release is the reward for the slightest try.
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So true. :) The release is the 'yes, that's what I want'. I've got into trouble (many discussions lol) calling the release a reward. In behavioural speak it isn't technically a reward I believe.
 
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FFS! I know Easter is the time to think about the resurrection but why can't some subjects be put to bed - or event PSTS!!! This has been done to death!
 
mcnaughty said:
FFS! I know Easter is the time to think about the resurrection but why can't some subjects be put to bed - or event PSTS!!! This has been done to death!
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I am sorry you feel that this subject has over discussed in the past but new owners/trainees/riders are getting into horses every day and they are part of why I raised the concerns I have. I am not here pointing fingers at individuals - of which there are many, not just the two who are being mentioned frequently. I appreciate there are many ways to "skin a cat" but I don't know how we can assist newcomers to horses in their decisions with regard to training their horses and indeed themselves. At a demo a couple of years ago I saw an NH trainer, as they described themselves, make a TB mare lie on the floor flat out and then stand on her belly "to prove how relaxed she is". There was thunderous applause but I was appalled as the mare looked clearly unhappy and then I saw her whacked in the face to make her get up again. Hardly unacceptable. Traditional trainers can also have a lot to answer for but it is not what I wanted to discuss in this thread.
 
PuddingandPie said:
I am sorry you feel that this subject has over discussed in the past but new owners/trainees/riders are getting into horses every day and they are part of why I raised the concerns I have. I am not here pointing fingers at individuals - of which there are many, not just the two who are being mentioned frequently. I appreciate there are many ways to "skin a cat" but I don't know how we can assist newcomers to horses in their decisions with regard to training their horses and indeed themselves. At a demo a couple of years ago I saw an NH trainer, as they described themselves, make a TB mare lie on the floor flat out and then stand on her belly "to prove how relaxed she is". There was thunderous applause but I was appalled as the mare looked clearly unhappy and then I saw her whacked in the face to make her get up again. Hardly unacceptable. Traditional trainers can also have a lot to answer for but it is not what I wanted to discuss in this thread. Perhaps you could provide your recommendations if you have a moment to help.
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mcnaughty said:
FFS! I know Easter is the time to think about the resurrection but why can't some subjects be put to bed - or event PSTS!!! This has been done to death!
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Get a damn grip! Who made you the forum police?

People are discussing a subject, if you don't like that subject - don't open the posts - simple as!
 
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