Natural Horsemanship. Is it just a circus act?

Horses instinctively lean into physical pressure. They are hard-wired to do it. Therefore all horses, at some point in their lives must be taught how to yield to pressure. It is the most important lesson they will learn, and is the foundation for their successful training.

Horses which do not yield to pressure are horses which are bargy, who nap, or who behave badly in other ways in-hand and under saddle.

Pressure must be applied in such a way, and to such an extent, as to encourage the horse to offer some favourable response, whilst avoiding any resistance from him. Too little pressure, and the horse will be unlikely to offer any response; too much pressure, and the horse will likely resist, and may panic, may attempt to run through the pressure, or may try to flee and, if unable to do so, may become aggressive.
 
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fburton said:
Why would horses choose to follow a bully or dominant? If they do (which sometimes happens), it is in spite of , not because of, the dominant's aggressiveness.
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I reckon its applicable to draw a paralell to our human workplace. An agressive boss is definately a boss, and you do things for him because you don't want to be yelled at. So horses keep away from a dominant horse's pile of hay, and adpot behaviour which is least likely to antagonise them. The horse in this instance is in charge. A human manager who is a good leader on the other hand, empowers you to do your job, allows you the space to do it, rewards a job well done, and only steps in with constructive criticism if they feel its necessary, which is usually rarely. That horse's herd will respect this horse as a leader without fear, and I would argue are a less stressed bunch who learn more easily. Both herds of horses survive, at least in that generation.

I've seen a dominant horse's relationship with a very submissive horse, and its stressful to watch: the two are "best buddies" because the submissive one is very reliant on the dominant one, to the point of yelling for him if he leaves the field - the dominant one couldn't give two hoots about leaving his friend behind, but my god if he wants a mutual groom he'll go and get one off him, or woe betide! It reminds me a lot of a stereotypical bullying man in a relationship with a subservient woman. By luck or judgement, the dominant horse became less dominant and more of a leader as he aged, and the picture became a lot more pleasant. Interestingly this coincided with my relationship with this horse evolving to be more understanding and more of a partnership, as I became more aware of my style of riding and handling. Did I teach him to be more compassionate towards his fieldmate? Was he less stressed as a result of more leadership and less dominance from me? Was I nothing to do with the pair's relationship, or did my relationship with the horse ease as his relationship in the field evolved? Who knows, but its interesting to speculate! :)

Apologies for the abundance of examples of humans used in my posts about horses today, but hopefully you can see they are relevant examples. Ironically I'm the first to disagree with personnification of horses, but I think drawing comparisons is sometimes useful ;)
 
Naturally said:
Apologies for the abundance of examples of humans used in my posts about horses today, but hopefully you can see they are relevant examples. Ironically I'm the first to disagree with personnification of horses, but I think drawing comparisons is sometimes useful ;)
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I do too and actually don't see it as anthropomorhism automatically. :)

I've sort of begun to think that leadership and dominance are of little relevance to me and my horses recently. It has cleared up my trying to make these words fit with what I aim for. These terms just seem to muddy the waters as we all have our own interpretation of their meaning. :D
 
I think it is more about the intelligence of some mares not the dominace that gives them the lead. They may have the idea first and the rest follow for safety.

A good 'boss' will lead by example not threats and may correct but not punish. If any member of the herd feels fear the rest will respect the fear and they will all go without waiting for the Lead mare to make the decision.
 
I think that is where the circus act starts, it shows communication but at an extreme level.

'There is no object in teaching a horse to follow the trainer around the corral or out in the open without hallter or restraint except for effect.'
Quote from Breaking and training the stock Horse - Charles O Williamson 1950
 
better half said:
'There is no object in teaching a horse to follow the trainer around the corral or out in the open without hallter or restraint except for effect.'
Quote from Breaking and training the stock Horse - Charles O Williamson 1950
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Actually, I find it pretty useful if I forget a headcollar or decide to bring a horse in for some un planned reason. :D
 
I have my horses at home and actually they are loose much of the time but good idea to check. No idea what difference it makes in my case tbh, they're not going to run away. lol. I never 'go loose' outside my property and my gates are always closed btw. :)
 
It is difficult I suppose trying to demonstrate a high level of training without it being reminiscent of a circus act. Having said that it is only because circuses have become synonymous with poor animal welfare that the actual training had to be pretty impressive. You just wouldn't be able to do that with force, despite the theatricals. Hence the title of the thread being a bit devicive.
I do agree with Better Half that the 'join up' is rather too much, and a bit pointless, for building a proper relationship. I think that getting saddle, bridle and rider on in such a short time is mistake, which could explain the need for the patented pressure halter, later on.
 
Yes, many do not like join up. Fair enough, to me as I've said often, it's how it is used and carried out that matters and tbh I find the techniques learned about moving a horse and controlling it's speed and direction extremely useful in my being able to position myself without blocking the horse etc. etc.
Learning the 'moves' has helped me with long lining, loose work and generally communicating with my horses through my body language and body positioning.
No doubt I could have learned these things elsewhere but reading about and watching JU in theory and then practicing the lessons about body language, position, and the horses responses has been invaluble to me personally.
 
natural horsemanship is just good horsemanship. it is wrapping up the skill and knowledge of many many great horse people, and yes I get a bit tired of some of the marketing some NH use....but it works because it is just good horsemanship.

No doubt there are some less than desirable practitioners of NH just like you get bad trainers in every other field be it racing, dressage, jumping, showing whatever

I have had some top people give me some invaluable skills
 
amandap said:
Here's Anna Twinney talking about 'round pen work' if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEgkbkRXaDg&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBEdiCZNbQ8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxnH1Nwr3uM&feature=related

If you are interested do watch all three.
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Thanks for posting these.

A good way to allay the myths and nonsense about what really happens in a round pen. If anyone doesn't understand the point of Join-Up after listening to Anna Twinney here, they are never going to understand their horse and had better stick to bicycles.

I particularly like her 'kindergarten' analogy and the one about the 'contract'. I think she could have made more of 'giving the horse confidence' and 'safe secure area' but you can't get a whole fifteen years experience into fifteen minutes on YouTube.

Like any other piece of equipment, it's not the gadget, it's the intelligence of the person using it that gets the result.
 
talkinghorse said:
I particularly like her 'kindergarten' analogy and the one about the 'contract'.
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I first heard a kindergarden analogy from Carolyn Resnick and liked it then. Once the horse understands the rules/relationship you start to up the tempo slowly and can ask more.
 
Annoying when that happens, so I now write it in Word then save it every so often incase laptop crashes, then paste it on forum, saves losing it all!
Oz
 
My mum has a big clydesdale x cob, he was very rude, pushy and sometimes dangerous on the ground. He was difficult to ride, very sluggish and stubborn. She had a lady in to help her with some ground manners - a natural horsemanship person, can honestly say that hes completely different now, hes much much more manageable and now has mannors to burn. It has taken a while, he has been doing it now for 3 years. Mums doing western riding with him which he seems alot happier about, he actually enjoys his work now and his new style of riding :D
 
Better half,

You miss the whole point entirely..

It's not a circus act to have your horse with you without constraint! It shows that your horse trusts you to lead Thus enabling a confidence on your choice of direction, jump, speed, noise, and so on.

If your horse will follow you on the ground you have a horse that will follow you anywhere.

And that is the basis of NH- trust!
 
I have seen many top riders have their horses follow them and if you work with them fairly, they will want to follow you through trust.
It is how it is achieved was the point, I just think you can’t force trust with join up and pressure halters this is not trust it is making the horse feel vulnerable causing subjugation, this way is an ultimatum not a relationship built on trust.
Yes, I think Tom Dorrance as the father of Natural Horsemanship was a naturally talent man with great feel and understanding of horses. Like anything that was pure to start with it is easily diluted. His book True Unity is very good.
 
I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on how the direct rein and indirect rein are taught using natural horsemanship if pressure and release are going to be affective.

I have really enjoyed the very balanced views coming out through this discussion and have opened my mind up more to different approaches.

Thank you!!:)
 
Better half,

Aaah yes, now there's a thought!

Join up is unquantifiable when done in a very nice way but yes, thrashing a horse around a round pen till it has no choice but to follow really doesnt acheive much for a relationship. I think the carrot approach is more appropriate.

I tend to think of horses much like teaching a four year old human, how do you need to change your approach etc, no one in their right mind would want to 'bully' a toddler, not the sort of long term relationship anyone would want.


Anyone read the books by lucy rees, thats a fairly good start.
 
PuddingandPie said:
I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on how the direct rein and indirect rein are taught using natural horsemanship if pressure and release are going to be affective.

I have really enjoyed the very balanced views coming out through this discussion and have opened my mind up more to different approaches.

Thank you!!:)
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I think I understand what you are asking. In Parelli they use 4 phases of pressure on the rein, with the aim that the horse will learn to respond at the first phase. They might hang in and wait with steady and quite firm pressure, and I think sometimes will put a vibration in the rein if the horse doesn't react. I think that's roughly how it works. I've been taught a bit differently, which is to ask with the lightest pressure and then back it up with something else. What that is depends a bit on the horse, but slapping my leg often shows a horse that I'd like them to do something, and with indirect rein I might swap hands and pat the horse's bum with my hand, or use a touch of my leg. Direct rein isn't normally that difficult because it's so firmly established on the ground.
 
I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on how the direct rein and indirect rein are taught using natural horsemanship if pressure and release are going to be affective.

Apologies I meant to say effective NOT affective....a bit like when I wanted to pay a compliment and told someone they looked very effluent instead of affluent! Suffice to say they forgave me..when they had stopped laughing!
:)
 
I'm no expert but I think the first thing you teach any horse, any method, is to come off pressure. Horses are naturally "into pressure" beings, so it's not instinctive for them to yield to pressure, so it's important for them to realise that yielding to pressure = release = reward. The softer they become the easier it is for horse and handler.

My understanding is that there is more of an opening rein used with a rope halter or bitless bridle than a direct rein, although as the horse gets softer, the weight of the reins are to some extent direct. The indirect rein can be used to influence the hindquarters - eg the left hand is lifted slightly towards the right shoulder to move the quarters towards the right, along with the left leg.

Same as Classical, really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W4XfuJsW-Q&feature=player_embedded

This is an example of some really nice work, demonstrating the open & indirect rein as well as sympathetic basic training.
 
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better half said:
I have seen many top riders have their horses follow them and if you work with them fairly, they will want to follow you through trust.
It is how it is achieved was the point, I just think you can’t force trust with join up and pressure halters this is not trust it is making the horse feel vulnerable causing subjugation, this way is an ultimatum not a relationship built on trust.
Yes, I think Tom Dorrance as the father of Natural Horsemanship was a naturally talent man with great feel and understanding of horses. Like anything that was pure to start with it is easily diluted. His book True Unity is very good.
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The way I see it is the horse is actually learning what you are asking. If you ask through force or too much pressure and without the horse understanding what you want then it isn't going to get the trust and cooperation we all hope to get fro our horses.

The problem with words like 'force' and subjugation' is they are very subjective. Some people see any 'asking' a horse even with a look to move back a step as force. I don't see it that way although of course you can try and force a horse to just stop responding to you and become 'putty in your hands' through fear and subjugation.

Prompted by Betterhalf (don't have a copy of the book she recommends) I'm flipping through my copy of Bill Dorrance's (scribed by Leslie Desmond) book "True Horsemanship through feel", which I haven't looked at for some years. I recommend this book highly but it is difficult to get used to the style, as it is written as he spoke.
He clearly outlines the importance of listening to what the horse is saying by observing it's reactions and demenour and working with that individual horse and practice practice, practice to get that 'feel' right.

Going a bit off track but reading Bill Dorrance's take on 'asking' a horse this time round has been a lightbulb moment for me. He says asking is something we human's can do when we speak to each other rather than between horses and humans.

I hope it's ok to quote a line from this book on here? These are Bill Dorrance's words scribed by Leslie Desmond, page 12 "True Horsemanship through Feel"

"What we'll say is that before you can learn how to present something to the horse through feel that he's going to understand, you have to learn how to observe and make sense of the way he operates his body and how new information is processed in his mind."

For a while I've used the word ask but reading this I think I need to change my focus. Thanks for the nudge BH. :)

Nice video intouch.

Also for anyone interested, using pressure and release ridden is very clearly explained imo in a Mark Rashid DVD. 'Finding the Try'
 
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amandap said:
The way I see it is the horse is actually learning what you are asking. If you ask through force or too much pressure and without the horse understanding what you want then it isn't going to get the trust and cooperation we all hope to get fro our horses.

The problem with words like 'force' and subjugation' is they are very subjective. Some people see any 'asking' a horse even with a look to move back a step as force. I don't see it that way although of course you can try and force a horse to just stop responding to you and become 'putty in your hands' through fear and subjugation.

Prompted by Betterhalf (don't have a copy of the book she recommends) I'm flipping through my copy of Bill Dorrance's (scribed by Leslie Desmond) book "True Horsemanship through feel", which I haven't looked at for some years. I recommend this book highly but it is difficult to get used to the style, as it is written as he spoke.
He clearly outlines the importance of listening to what the horse is saying by observing it's reactions and demenour and working with that individual horse and practice practice, practice to get that 'feel' right.

Going a bit off track but reading Bill Dorrance's take on 'asking' a horse this time round has been a lightbulb moment for me. He says asking is something we human's can do when we speak to each other rather than between horses and humans.

I hope it's ok to quote a line from this book on here? These are Bill Dorrance's words scribed by Leslie Desmond, page 12 "True Horsemanship through Feel"

"What we'll say is that before you can learn how to present something to the horse through feel that he's going to understand, you have to learn how to observe and make sense of the way he operates his body and how new information is processed in his mind."

For a while I've used the word ask but reading this I think I need to change my focus. Thanks for the nudge BH. :)

Nice video intouch.

Also for anyone interested, using pressure and release ridden is very clearly explained imo in a Mark Rashid DVD. 'Finding the Try'
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One of the book's that made me stop and 'Think'
 
ridefast said:
Notice how those that get famous tend to have some sob story - terrible childhood or terrible aggressive horse that noone else could handle and was going to be shot?
I however have perfectly well trained circus ponies, and you can too! All you need is my set of books and dvds - only £500 each, and for an extra £1000 you get an apple branch to hit your horse with but only the way it shows in my books - £750 each - if you do it any other way you will not create a true bond with your horse based on fear and dominance.
And now available my very own special apple flavoured headcollars bargain at £3000 each, specially designed to force your horse to behave whilst looking like excitable out of control beasts - buy it now with my set of books and dvds only £800 each, and you will be able to experience a truly harmonious relationship with your horse
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You've been told a MILLION times - don't exaggerate!!!:D
 
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