Natural Horsemanship. Is it just a circus act?

[Foxhunter49]

I watched Monty Roberts when he first came over here. He was demonstrating at WIndsor for the Queen. Then the H&H brought him over and he did demos at Towerlands and Stoneleigh. I took two horses to Towerlands, one a remedial and the other a totally unhandled filly.
What did impress me was another remedial he had there. A horse that was terribly fearful and how it had been to several places to be broken but would not take a rider. It was relaxed with the owner but not with anyone else. MR worked with it and the horse accepted his rider. It was fascinating to watch.

Now, at that time there was no talk of abuse and he said he would do Join-up two or three days and then longrein the horses for two or three weeks before riding them away.

Jump a few years and the story had changed a lot. He was working with problem horses and one a big warmblood was very nappy and refusing to jump. It was not surprising as the poor horse had tiny feet and very upright pasterns and to me looked lame on both front feet. He found a way of getting it going, with a very restrictive visor but never looked at the reason for it napping. That horse had navicular and was later put down. So, for me the man who talks to horses needs to learn to listen to them.

The stories of him being beaten by his father, how he went out into the wilds and brought back herds of wild horses are a load of bull. His father had a reputation for being a very kind man with horses he worked with.
Try reading Horse Whisperer and Lies written by his aunt and cousin.

I do not care for Pareli at all, he is a terrible horseman and at times more than abusive. For me he is useful for people who do not know how to train a horse and have more money than sense.

Both of these men started out with some good points but the hype and $$$$$$$$ has blinkered them into becoming nothing more than a circus.

 

[AengusOg]

I agree with this.

I have seen many top riders have their horses follow them and if you work with them fairly, they will want to follow you through trust..

But not with this.

It is how it is achieved was the point, I just think you can’t force trust with join up and pressure halters this is not trust it is making the horse feel vulnerable causing subjugation, this way is an ultimatum not a relationship built on trust.
.

I have used Join-Up with some horses in the past, and I have to say it can do more harm than good IMO. Not all horses respond well to being sent away round a pen, and some just don't get it.

I much prefer to put a pressure halter on a horse and work with it on a long rope. It's very important to teach a horse how light pressure feels, and allow the horse to realise how he can free himself of pressure by yielding to it.

It only takes a few seconds for a horse to learn to yield to pressure, and that lesson will set him up for all his subsequent training. Once he has discovered that, if he pays attention to my movements and his position in relation to mine, he can avoid the pressure, he will be very easily handled and trained.

However, that only applies if the pressure used is light and the horse is given a fair chance to learn the correct response to a given cue. Any use of forceful pressure, or harsh use of the halter, is counter-productive, and will cause resistance from the horse.

More important than the application of pressure is the release from it. For a horse to be encouraged to offer a response, without resisting, each time he feels the application of pressure, he must learn that his response will be met immediately with release of the pressure. Even if his response is not that required by the trainer, the pressure must instantly be released as the horse's reaction is detected. This will decrease the likelihood of resistance.

Failure, on the part of the handler/trainer, to release pressure instantly, upon the horse's response, is the most damaging part of pressure halter use. In cases where the pressure has been too great, or prolonged after the point where it should have been released, horse can become very reactive to any pressure applied thereafter. This is why some people claim that their horses are 'claustrophobic' and dangerous when handled in a pressure halter.

Horses which have been correctly introduced to pressure from a halter, and who have experienced timely release from that pressure when they have offered a response, even if it was not the response required by the handler/trainer, are willing to try, do not offer violent resistance, and, given a fair opportunity, will become compliant and reliable.

On the original subject of circus tricks...I don't see the point of asking a horse to stand on a pedestal.

It's unfortunate that these demonstrations/clinics, with their necessary time restraints, are sometimes the first, and only, experience of Natural Horsemanship for some people. The gurus who make these DVDs, such as 'The Road to the Horse' are working against the clock, and have to put immense pressure on these horses to get results in the short times allocated.

Much more can be achieved in the more appropriate surroundings of the quiet yard or field, by a compassionate trainer and a trustful horse, where time can be spent allowing the horse to learn what is required of him through the use of gentle pressure and timely release.

 

[Kelly Marks]

"The stories of him being beaten by his father, how he went out into the wilds and brought back herds of wild horses are a load of bull. His father had a reputation for being a very kind man with horses he worked with".

So Monty Roberts had this very kind father and one day thought 'I know I'll pretend he beat me up because it will make this book I'm writing sell". Hmmm...

I've met two people who saw MRs father around horses and both said he was extremely 'tough' around them. Only the child knows the truth about their own childhood. Mostly you're better off keeping quiet about things that happen - people who 'break rank' are given a really tough time - and this is a case in point.

Of course it was more 'normal' to beat children in those days - and as one of his uncle's said 'of course he hit him - but not hard enough'.

All we can hope is the world is getting kinder and more understanding.

 

[Foxhunter49]

"The stories of him being beaten by his father, how he went out into the wilds and brought back herds of wild horses are a load of bull. His father had a reputation for being a very kind man with horses he worked with".

So Monty Roberts had this very kind father and one day thought 'I know I'll pretend he beat me up because it will make this book I'm writing sell". Hmmm...

I've met two people who saw MRs father around horses and both said he was extremely 'tough' around them. Only the child knows the truth about their own childhood. Mostly you're better off keeping quiet about things that happen - people who 'break rank' are given a really tough time - and this is a case in point.

Of course it was more 'normal' to beat children in those days - and as one of his uncle's said 'of course he hit him - but not hard enough'.

All we can hope is the world is getting kinder and more understanding.

So, how come he was able to go out into the wild and bring back herds of wild horses across two states? Absolutely impossible with the way traffic had increased and in the time he had.
Secondly, in his first book published in the UK names of the lads who went with him changed to the one printed in the USA.

As I said, I saw him when he first came over and in more recent years and the tales have become exaggerated more and more.

 

[amandap]

MRoberts... secrets and lies debate creeping in again.

Tbh to me that debate is a waste of time and in no way discredits what I have learned and taken from his methods in my head. Some tell me or imply I am cruel and mindless/brainwashed for using what he teaches about body language, positioning when working a horse etc. etc. Fair enough. I take what I find works and what makes sense to me and I don't care where I learn it. Nor am I going to refuse to use what I've learned or deny I do because someone says that person is a liar etc. I am able to make my own mind up and be responsible for my actions. Being old and crumbly I have learned it's all too easy to blame others for your own actions and decisions and this is too often a cop out for horsepeople these days. Blame the trainer or the horse but I say, blame yourself first if you really do have to 'blame' anyone.

 

[ApacheWarrior]

Parelli ruined my first few weeks with my new horse.....now I have ditched the carrot stick, life is a lot more pleasant for both of us.

 

[ben1]

www.robertleese.com

video on you tube

 

[jeeve]

If you are happy with what you are achieving with your horse, that is great.

If you want to establish a bond with your horse, (think The Black Stallion on the beach scenes), if you have an issue you do not have the experience to deal with, and do not have resources around you, then before you sell or PTS that horse, NH/IH is a viable alternative.

I have seen some amazing things, unfortunately mostly achieved by those around me, but I also have become adept at teaching horse to float load through NH principles. The last 4 years I have done very little with my horses, the kids have kept them ticking over. But after 2 years of not riding or handling my ISH, I was able to start almost where we left off (excluding fitness ). He remembered everything, and did what ever I asked. I cannot fault the education my horses have had through NH principles.

 

[team barney]

Every horse I have re-started has remembered it's training. Any difficulties I have encountered have been difficulties that displayed themselves before the time off. Most of those horses were trained with traditional methods. The only hugely problematic horse I ever re-backed was natural horsemanship trained from the start.

I admit there are many problem horses that have been traditionally trained, but in my experience they tend to be far easier to fix as they haven't had their natural instincts bullied out of them and they still behave like the prey animals they are meant to be. Most NH trained horses on the other hand tend to be so de-sensitesed to their own natures that they don't even know how to behave like horses, and once the constant implied threat has retreated they act with the same dominance that they have been dealt.

I don't use force, tools or gadgets, therefore I don't prescribe to either natural or traditional horsemanship. From a lifetime in the equine world I have found the "natural horsemen" are often far more reliant on their gadgets than a "traditional horseman" is. Wether they use carrot sticks and/or pain inflicting halters, there is always some gadget to coerce the horse along. Most traditional horseman however could get along just fine with a plain old headcollar, leadrope and a little bit of patience something rarely displayed by the advocates and practitioners of Natural horsemanship, unfortunately that world is full to bursting with equine bully boys.

Horse's are not thick animals they remember what has happened to them, that is why so many have trouble with seemingly innocuous items/routines. People are far too ready too presume a horse has forgotten all it's past experiences and that is where many troubles start.

 

[Tinypony]

Team Barney, I agree with some things you post, but feel from a lot of what you say that your knowledge of the "nh" trainers is confined mainly to Parelli. NH is a lot wider than Parelli, and very varied, and I strongly feel that it is wrong to claim that most horses trained that way are lie this:

"Most NH trained horses on the other hand tend to be so de-sensitesed to their own natures that they don't even know how to behave like horses, and once the constant implied threat has retreated they act with the same dominance that they have been dealt."

So if I'm right, wouldn't it be fairer to say Parelli if that's what you're talking about? Just for example, I would say that I am an nh trainer in my small way, and what you've said there couldn't be further from the truth with my horses, who you are welcome to meet if you're ever in Kent by the way. )

p.s. Looks like Ben1 has searched the forum for old threads to use as an advertising opportunity.

 

[tazzle]

Most traditional horseman however could get along just fine with a plain old headcollar, leadrope and a little bit of patience something rarely displayed by the advocates and practitioners of Natural horsemanship, unfortunately that world is full to bursting with equine bully boys

.

along with agreeing with tinyponys comments I would disagree most strongly with the above statement

given the plethora of flash nosebands, martingales etc ....the common use of whips as "reminders" and even the mandatory carrying of a crop by pony club children I would think that you could perhaps rethink your statement

 

[scarymare]

Agree with Team Barney

Horses remember everything that happens to them and seemingly insignificant events have lifelong consequences. Also I think people over-rate their own experience and try things they shouldn't. I thought I was pretty knowledgable cos I evented and had horses for 20 years. LOL, its only now when I am breeding and starting youngsters that I'm starting to learn.

One thing for sure though - some horses are born more fearful than others - period and thus obviously will need different handling - one size does not fit all here.

 

[team barney]

Team Barney, I agree with some things you post, but feel from a lot of what you say that your knowledge of the "nh" trainers is confined mainly to Parelli. NH is a lot wider than Parelli, and very varied, and I strongly feel that it is wrong to claim that most horses trained that way are lie this:

"Most NH trained horses on the other hand tend to be so de-sensitesed to their own natures that they don't even know how to behave like horses, and once the constant implied threat has retreated they act with the same dominance that they have been dealt."

So if I'm right, wouldn't it be fairer to say Parelli if that's what you're talking about? Just for example, I would say that I am an nh trainer in my small way, and what you've said there couldn't be further from the truth with my horses, who you are welcome to meet if you're ever in Kent by the way. )

p.s. Looks like Ben1 has searched the forum for old threads to use as an advertising opportunity.

Parelli is the worst of the lot but unfortunately that style of training doesn't end with them. There are aspects of many of the big names regimes that are despicable in my opinion and if carried out by a "traditional" trainer would be vilified no end.

I did say "most" NH trained horses, I know that not all of them are like it, my horses certainly aren't shut down and most people consider me to be natural, I just don't like the label due to it's close association with the bully boy tactics of many well known trainers that are out there.

I tend to be of the belief that anything can be achieved with patience and kindness I would never even dream of strapping my horses up to their eyeballs and intimidating them with any kind of violence it just isn't my way. When teaching my own or anyone elses horses I don't offer them aggression anymore than I'd resort to aggression with a human child who didn't understand me, I just work with them until I find a way to quietly offer my perspective on the situation.


p.s Yes I agree Ben1's post does seem rather random to say the least!

 

[team barney]

.

along with agreeing with tinyponys comments I would disagree most strongly with the above statement

given the plethora of flash nosebands, martingales etc ....the common use of whips as "reminders" and even the mandatory carrying of a crop by pony club children I would think that you could perhaps rethink your statement

Could, unfortunately many have lost the patience to actually do it!

I am with you on the whip issue, I hate seeing anyone carry a whip/stick/crop/whipwop/carrot stick what ever you want to call it, there is no need, any horse will work of the leg with a little amount of schooling and you don't need to resort to hitting it along.
children in spurs is another hate of mine, especially what half of them are incapable of keeping their legs still in walk!

 

[team barney]

One thing for sure though - some horses are born more fearful than others - period and thus obviously will need different handling - one size does not fit all here.

It always amazes me how bold some foals are born, and how timid others, I have always preferred working with the nervous ones, I find it incredibly rewarding and they suit my personality better. Friends of mine however favour the bold foals and get on best with the more naturally outgoing youngsters. Different strokes for different folks

 

[jinglejoys]

When this sort of thing is sold on the market to children as normal I think it says it all!

 

[amandap]

p.s. Looks like Ben1 has searched the forum for old threads to use as an advertising opportunity.

LOL and most unfortunate given that unshod/barefoot is doing the rounds once again.

I sometimes think having a supposedly more precise language aka speech and written word is far more confusing and cause of problems than just good old body language.

 

[tazzle]

I am with you on the whip issue, I hate seeing anyone carry a whip/stick/crop/whipwop/carrot stick what ever you want to call it, there is no need, any horse will work of the leg with a little amount of schooling and you don't need to resort to hitting it along.
children in spurs is another hate of mine, especially what half of them are incapable of keeping their legs still in walk!

well I am not against their ownership or use entirely .....after all I do own a few ........ it it after all only a tool and its how it is used not the article itself .

my first task was to reassure Taz that she did not need to shake evey time she saw someone with a long thin thing in their hand ( even people with walking sticks) , she was not going to be beaten !!!! It eventually bacame instead her friend... giving her scratchies / rubs

then because oother people carry them and waggle them she had to learn that waggling / waving was ok too.

then we wanted to drive so one was uselful for asking her body to move over ( rein variation is nil and replaces the leg of a rider . and is handy to aid signalling other road users especially with high viz flag on it !!!


as per my signaure pic below the carrot stick is very handy for my disabled friend with little use of right arm, it becomes an extention to enable him to cue Taz


anyone who cant control their leg should not have spurs, child or not !

 

[georgie0]

Personally i avoid NH like the plague. All the horses i own are happy, secure and i can do anything with them. They all have manners and respect for people handling them and if they break the rules they get disipline, which will be short and sharp and never with a loss of temper. Having worked on a huge variety of yards i have seen endless NH horses without any respect for people and who are confused and yes, never ridden! Not for me.

 

[tazzle]

Having worked on a huge variety of yards i have seen endless NH horses without any respect for people and who are confused and yes, never ridden! Not for me.

no doubt there are some ....

but I can say the reverse..... my CT/ NH horse does riding and driving as well as working with special people who have multiple disabilities ..... and there are plenty traditionally trained horses I would not trust an inch because of their current behaviour never mind ride.

One cannot make blanket judgements about any "method" just because some practitioners of it cannot produce a well mannered horse that can function in the environement its in.

if one came on here and used the posts here as a judgment of "traditional training" then it would appear to produce horses that rear, jog, back into ditches, refuse jumps, bolt, are too strong for their riders and often cant be led to / from their fields.

Now I know that is patently untrue... my friend is as BHS / trad as they get and we hack out together ........... happily and safely .I respect that she has produced good horses and she respects that I do too.

 

[georgie0]

Yep agree that judging all by one is not the way forward, but unfortunatley i have seen far too much of one type of evidence of one thing and not enough of another. I stand by my views; what i'm doing works for mine. I have a previously 'tricky' hunter (note the 'previously'), a yearling ISH and a 4 year old welsh cob. Both babies are well rounded secure individuals and the 4 year old will be backed in september when i'm not pregnant anymore! He was a terror before i bought him. As a 2 year old he was heading down a very bad road, thankfully he had responsible owners who also happen to be friends who weren't prepared to send him off to god knows where, as his future was so doubtful. Now he is a joy and will go down the road all my babies do; calm constant handling and groundwork and a seasons hunting! Which is, of course the basis for alot of NH. I have no problems with the outlook or the foundations it is based on, what i think i truly object to is the fact it is simply good horsemanship that has been carried out for centuries, now practiced by people who lok down their noses at 'traditional' methods when thats all NH is. It isn't new - fangled and ground breaking. If it works for you - fantastic. Just not for me.

 

[Pale Rider]

Yep agree that judging all by one is not the way forward, but unfortunatley i have seen far too much of one type of evidence of one thing and not enough of another. I stand by my views; what i'm doing works for mine. I have a previously 'tricky' hunter (note the 'previously'), a yearling ISH and a 4 year old welsh cob. Both babies are well rounded secure individuals and the 4 year old will be backed in september when i'm not pregnant anymore! He was a terror before i bought him. As a 2 year old he was heading down a very bad road, thankfully he had responsible owners who also happen to be friends who weren't prepared to send him off to god knows where, as his future was so doubtful. Now he is a joy and will go down the road all my babies do; calm constant handling and groundwork and a seasons hunting! Which is, of course the basis for alot of NH. I have no problems with the outlook or the foundations it is based on, what i think i truly object to is the fact it is simply good horsemanship that has been carried out for centuries, now practiced by people who lok down their noses at 'traditional' methods when thats all NH is. It isn't new - fangled and ground breaking. If it works for you - fantastic. Just not for me.

From your post, I get the impression that a lot of what you do with your horses would be classed as NH, whether or not you would be comfortable to be called a Natural Horseperson is really neither here nor there. The really daft thing is that what is now called 'traditional' are fairly modern concepts in the scheme of things and the recent upsurge of NH are really very very old methods.

My problem with 'traditional' horsemanship, is the rush everyone is in to get backed and bitted and then of to some event or other.

Personally I am really happy with Natural Horsemanship as it's called and I am overjoyed to see the year on year uptake of the methods, and I suppose just like anything people will have their favourites amongst the trainers.

H&H forum has for quite some time seen some rabid attacks on people like Parelli, who have done the most I suppose to really push NH, but now I feel, from the support NH gets on the forum and the number of people, who will not put their head over the parapet in public support, but who privately mail in support tends to indicate that even on this forum, the anti's are losing ground.

In the real world, where friends and neighbours see the results of NH training methods, it has been interesting to see how many gradually have become more open minded, and want to give it a go. The ones who give up on it, in my experience were pretty crap at the 'traditional' way as well, so no great loss there.

The wealth of material on the web and available in DVD's as well as the ever increasing number of trainers getting qualified to teach NH has in the past few years seen a massive uptake of NH methods, which I feel is excellent for horses. It highlights the lack of information available in the past, which amounted to books and a lesson or two at the local yard for a lot of folk.

The expansion of NH methods at such a rate over the past 25 yrs or so begs the question of where will we be in another 10 or 15 yrs. The more people who have the opportunity to get the information, the better.

 

[tess1]

woah, sorry ... fair few sweeping statements in there - but this one took my breath away ...

My problem with 'traditional' horsemanship, is the rush everyone is in to get backed and bitted and then of to some event or other.

Now that is ironic, when we have Monty Roberts boasting that he can get first saddle and rider on a horse in half an hour, and there are these ridiculous colt starting competitions which put young horses under huge amounts of pressure to boost the egos of the so called NH types.

Personally, I've met an awful lot of 'traditional' people who are bloody good with horses, they "take the time it takes", use common sense, don't need round pens and pressure halters to get results and can produce nice horses and teach people good horse sense without feeling the urge to give themselves a whole pile of fancy blurb, invent new terms for what they are doing and need a large marketing budget.

In fact, your whole post reads like an ad for NH, if you're not in marketing you should consider it as a second career option!

 

[horseless jorge!]

I despise Natural Horsemanship in the form of Parelli. THAT is all about circus tricks.

However, Natural Horsemanship in the form of Monty Roberts and his lot, I strongly support. They are all about a horse being a horse, and doing horsey things. They don't try and baby horses, they don't try and turn them into people. They understand that sometimes, horses get scared and they need a leader, they need time and patience.

 

[Pale Rider]

I despise Natural Horsemanship in the form of Parelli. THAT is all about circus tricks.

However, Natural Horsemanship in the form of Monty Roberts and his lot, I strongly support. They are all about a horse being a horse, and doing horsey things. They don't try and baby horses, they don't try and turn them into people. They understand that sometimes, horses get scared and they need a leader, they need time and patience.

Thats worth 24 pages on it's own, lol.

 

[siennamum]

From your post, I get the impression that a lot of what you do with your horses would be classed as NH, whether or not you would be comfortable to be called a Natural Horseperson is really neither here nor there. The really daft thing is that what is now called 'traditional' are fairly modern concepts in the scheme of things and the recent upsurge of NH are really very very old methods.

My problem with 'traditional' horsemanship, is the rush everyone is in to get backed and bitted and then of to some event or other.

Personally I am really happy with Natural Horsemanship as it's called and I am overjoyed to see the year on year uptake of the methods, and I suppose just like anything people will have their favourites amongst the trainers.

H&H forum has for quite some time seen some rabid attacks on people like Parelli, who have done the most I suppose to really push NH, but now I feel, from the support NH gets on the forum and the number of people, who will not put their head over the parapet in public support, but who privately mail in support tends to indicate that even on this forum, the anti's are losing ground.

In the real world, where friends and neighbours see the results of NH training methods, it has been interesting to see how many gradually have become more open minded, and want to give it a go. The ones who give up on it, in my experience were pretty crap at the 'traditional' way as well, so no great loss there.

The wealth of material on the web and available in DVD's as well as the ever increasing number of trainers getting qualified to teach NH has in the past few years seen a massive uptake of NH methods, which I feel is excellent for horses. It highlights the lack of information available in the past, which amounted to books and a lesson or two at the local yard for a lot of folk.

The expansion of NH methods at such a rate over the past 25 yrs or so begs the question of where will we be in another 10 or 15 yrs. The more people who have the opportunity to get the information, the better.

I don't really understand much of what you are trying to say, it seems very muddled.

For instance. The traditional way of backing and breaking would be to have a young horse ridden away for a few months following backing and breaking. It may involve the youngster going cubbing quite quickly to ensure it is forwards. Not sure where your comment about traditional resulting in horses going straight to events comes from.

 

[Denzalwood]

This is a serious can of worms for sure

My wife and myself have 15 horses atm and the way we are with them is as follows.

We treat then like horses, we act like horses with them, we dont expect them to be people, we use common sense and always take into account how our actions will affect the horse, we enter into their world, the likes of Parelli and Monty Roberts are well and good but tbh most of it is just common sense packaged up very well for public sale. We understand you get more from a horse that loves you than from a horse that fears you, we have a saying at our yard, when our horses see us we aim for them to think "only good things will happen now"

On a related note.

We had a girl come to us for work experience who was at Uni studying Equine Science, a very famous Equine Whisperer visited her yard, he claimed "never to have seen this horse before" then promptly fixed it, twas true he hadn't ever seen it before, but the team of guys he sent several days before his visit to assess possible horse projects had, Sceptical? who me?

 

[pipsqueek]

No I would not say its just an act, it just depends on who is practising it!! All I can say is that my youngster wouldnt go near my horsebox and a couple of sessions of 'natural horsemanship' with Jonathan Browne and she walks on like a lamb! (can't say im too keen on those Parelli displays tho, it seems to be making it into a circus act..)

 

[georgie0]

My problem with 'traditional' horsemanship, is the rush everyone is in to get backed and bitted and then of to some event or other.

Erm... i would say i'm as traditional as they come and i don't rush any youngster! My welshie is 4 and isn't backed yet as he wasn't ready. I have spent 2 years teaching him to long rein etc and he will progress at HIS speed. He will def hunt this season as i think it is invaluble to a youngster. The way i do things has been gleaned over many years from very experienced 'traditional' people!

 

[team barney]

Regarding the traditional trait of rushing horses...

Parelli among others took part in a colt starting competition riding 2 year olds.

Parelli and other NH practitioners also took part in a competition this year for backing untouched 3 year olds in a few short hours.

Most traditional horseman wouldn't dream of starting a 2 year old under saddle. Neither would they dream of starting an untouched 3 year old in 3 hours in front of a huge crowd.