Natural horsemanship/Parelli? untraining it/opinions

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SarahRicoh

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Hi all,

its been a long time since iv posted on here but looking for some advice/opinions!

(please no arguing!!)

I've recently bought my very own arab �� wanted one for years and he's generally a sweetie.
he's 15yrs old so quite old but all I know is he's done just hacking for 10 years and a bit of jousting/possible trick training at some point.

He came to me in a Barefoot treeless saddle and bitless bridle.
I've introduced him to a bitter bridle and he's been fine and i plan to change him into a normal treed saddle as soon as i sort one that fits!

anyway, he is very rude and head buts and can be quite defensive. he also pulls faces/ can try kick when putting rugs on and same with tacking up.
I'm guessing he's grumpy tacking up as the saddle does not fit him-it causes pressure points!!
but does anyone know whether some horses are just funny about rugs as they may pull fur or if it could be an underlying problem?

The main thing is, I took him out to lunge today and he just didn't get it, everytime I sent him out to lunge he just moved his quarters around.. I made sure i was in correct position so not upsetting him but he just didn't understand.
then I realised he's been trained using parelli or similar as i tried all their 'games' which he does etc and he try's to along/around poles rather than over!
Could this training be the reason he's defensive as I've heard a lot of parelli trained horses are rude/defensive/kick etc!?
Also at 15 will I be able to retrain him to lunge etc?


I aim to sj him etc as he has a brilliant jump but because of the way he's been trained he doesn't seem to understand polework like a usual horse although i got him doing some jumping ridden and he was good.

Another thing is considering he's hacked all his life he's massively spooky. I dont know if this is his breeding or something else or whether he's used to being treated lik
 
I know quite a few horses that do Parelli (my own included) and the only one that is more 'defensive' than a 'normal' horse was badly handled as a youngster.
I'm sure you get some people who do a bad job of training their horses any method and that can lead to a confused horse, NH or conventional.
In answer to your more s
 
Arabs are very alert and can be spooky as they are looking out for hazards.

If he has been trained in a particular way he is not going to understand lunging at first, he thinks you are sending him away and in fact he is responding perfectly to what he understands. Maybe he has been lunged/long reined with two reins, which is what the natural horsemanship people do, with good reason.
I think you are going to have to find out what he has been taught, otherwise you will have a very confused horse on your hands. Maybe he is getting cross with you as he is offering what he thinks you want and you are not understanding him. Arabs are intelligent. Head butting, etc. are not acceptable, he is getting into your space, so send him back.

I have ridden and handled Parellia trained horses and they were a delight, so it obviously is important who did the training, rather than what the method was.
 
Sorry, on phone and replied too soon. In answer to your lunging question, to get my horse to turn and face, I lean down and put pressure on her hindquarters by looking at them to send her bum away and her head to me. If you are stood up facing more towards his shoulders this should send him on if he is correctly Parelli trained. I taught mine to lunge at 9 from scratch before I got into Parelli so I'm sure you will teach yours at 15. His difficulty might simply be a lack of education rather than miscommunication - you also mentioned he'd hacked all his life. Can you call his previous owners and find out what he's done?
Perhaps also book a massage if you feel the saddle has been making him sore. I agree this might be why he dislikes rugs.
 
BF treeless are good saddles. Do you have the thick pad that goes underneath it? Have you checked that the front arch is the correct width?

Arabs can be very hard to fit treed saddles to as they tend to be wide, short backed, low withered and also mostly have flat backs. You may be lucky and your saddler has the perfect saddle, but if not Solution does leather treed jumping saddles which can work brilliantly.

Being grumpy when rugged/tacked up can indicate ulcers. Of course if the saddle has caused pressure points, it could be that, that is the problem.

As he jumps nicely under saddle, I would be tempted to get him checked out, get a saddle that fits and then have some lessons with a good instructor.

I'd love to see some photos of him. :D
 
It sounds like a case of 'same words, different meanings' so I wonder if you can go back to previous owner and ask what techniques they used. The horse knows what you're asking and is complying, you are asking what you think you are asking but it isn't what the horse thinks you're asking. This can often be the problem with anyone who decides to teach their horses something that's a bit away from the norm. I had a livery once who taught his horses something that we all teach them as basics but he did it opposite to what is the norm. Now the horse totally understood him and was doing what he'd taught it, but when I rode the horse and gave it the correct cue, it did the opposite from what I wanted. This sort of thing is not a problem providing the horse remains with that owner for its life, it only becomes a problem once the horse has a different handler who rides in the more traditional manner. To retrain the horse though, shouldn't be too difficult but it will require more patience and understanding. If there's any way to avoid the misunderstanding at the moment then that's what I'd do. Can you long rein instead? And then slowly introduce what you want into the mix gradually?

Barefoots are generally well thought of saddles, and as a poster above has mentioned they are usually good fits for Arabs. Hopefully though you'll find one that suits both you and the horse better.
 
Thanks all for your replies.

I know barefoot saddles are a good make and I understand arabs are hard to fit so I am a little unsure about saddles.
looks like the saddle has just been used with a polypad not a proper treeless saddle pad which could be the cause of his discomfort?

do you all think if i were to get his back done/massaged and a correct pad that he would be happier in the barefoot?

the only reason id like a treed saddle is that i want to sj him which I'm not really able to do in a treeless �� also the girth needs to be done up tightly which he hates so he's resorted to trying to kick euth his front foot and pulling faces obviously trying to express this..

i thought ulcers but not sure about that or whether its just that the saddles incorrect at the mo.

what you are all saying is right(ignore all my waffling)! He's responding to what he's been taught but its not what i know so he's getting confused.
i actually hopped on bare back, in a headcollar after discovering how he's obviously been trained and he behaved beautifully bless him!

sadly i cant get hold of his owner as the last registered owner is 2004 so the person who's had him since then til person before me obviously didn't register him... I am contemplating writing too all the other owners but they were like 9 years ago or longer!


sorry about my unfinished original post-stupid phone! Keep your opinions coming please ��
 
Using the saddle with a polypad could definitely cause soreness, the Barefoot saddles need to be used with a proper treeless pad. It would be worth trying him with the correct pad, after he's had his back treated for the existing soreness (which you'll need to do whether you stick with the treeless or go for treed). The girthyness could be related to it having to be done up really tightly, or it could be ulcers. Difficult to say without knowing the horse but you could try a different girth and see what he makes of that.
 
I completely agree with BL - what an idiotic thing to do (the former owner not using a proper pad with the saddle). I certainly wouldn't trust that the saddle has the correct front arch in it in that case. :( Poor lad, most BF saddles come with a medium arch which will, most likely be too narrow.

I would get his back massaged and not use that saddle again until you can sort it out and get a treeless pad.

If you want a treed saddle look on arabianlines (search for 'saddle' and lots of threads will come up) as it will be helpful to be informed about the common problems, so you can avoid them. Do look at Solution's jumping saddles though as you can get them 2nd hand if they are out of your budget. Heather Moffett also does jumping saddles with leather trees.
 
I will be getting his back done asap!
I really don't know what to do about saddles as I know how hard arabs are to fit and I have limited money so I'm wondering whether to stick with the BF saddle and sort out a pad ..

Am I right in thinking I can just unzip the arch to change it? Can I only buy them online? As I'm pretty sure the arch doesn't fit as its pressing on his withers(which is prob due to polypad)..
I know I thought that about poly pad top!

Can only a vet tell if he has ulcers? I want to get this all sorted bless him.

and i tried a few games then stopped as I'm not 100% on them and didn't want to confuse him(i only know basics).. I may read up on them and give them all a go tomorrow and see what he does!

As far as a Solution saddle goes aren't they like £500 even secondhand? Way out of budget sadly ��
Can you go on fun rides in treeless saddles? I'm guessing hunting is out in a treeless & showjumping ��
 
I will be getting his back done asap!
I really don't know what to do about saddles as I know how hard arabs are to fit and I have limited money so I'm wondering whether to stick with the BF saddle and sort out a pad ..

Am I right in thinking I can just unzip the arch to change it? Can I only buy them online? As I'm pretty sure the arch doesn't fit as its pressing on his withers(which is prob due to polypad)..
I know I thought that about poly pad top!

Can only a vet tell if he has ulcers? I want to get this all sorted bless him.

and i tried a few games then stopped as I'm not 100% on them and didn't want to confuse him(i only know basics).. I may read up on them and give them all a go tomorrow and see what he does!

As far as a Solution saddle goes aren't they like £500 even secondhand? Way out of budget sadly ��
Can you go on fun rides in treeless saddles? I'm guessing hunting is out in a treeless & showjumping ��
 
This site should help you. :) http://www.horseandharmony.co.uk/barefoot-saddles-8-c.asp

Yes you unzip the front to swap arches. You can get different width solid arches and also soft ones for sensitive horses. The site above sells them as well as the pads (which are expensive and this is probably why he doesn't have one). If you read the reviews for the GP style saddles (eg the Cherokee) people do jump in them.

Link to find the correct size arch. http://barefoot-saddle.com/de/out/pictures/wysiwigpro/pdf/measuring_template.pdf

Yes, Solution do have a high second hand value but they are very expensive new.

I don't know if you could find an adjustable treed synthetic that would suit. The only time I tried a Thorowgood on my grey, it was far too curved. If you have a good saddler it would be well worth talking to them. You should be able to sell the BF easily if you don't want to keep it.
 
If you want to play the Parelli games with him you can join Parelli connect free for a month, get the videos and articles then leave before paying (unless you decide you'd like to take it up seriously that is!)
 
Thankyou Faracat-was just looking at that site ��

If saddle is medium as standard I guess he would need a wide but not sure whether he's prefer a soft one!

I have jumped in it but only very small but I aim to compete low level sj and possibly hunt which Isn't going to work in a barefoot I imagine.

Sadly solution saddles are WAY out of my budget ��

He has the barefoot Cheyenne atm and I've just got him a thorowgood as I've read they can be ok on arabs. It seems ok on him but hard to tell as I need to change gullet and im pretty sure its too long.

I dont know whether to sell BF and try throwgood with correct gullet. Keep BF and use with proper pad & sell thorowgood or sell both and try something else��

Saddles are sooo fustrating��

Faracat-your grey is beautiful!! Mine is handsome but when i got him he was in poor condition so I'm currently building him up and he has an awful coat! I will try post pics when I'm on a comp!

Thanks Unbalanced-great idea, I will do that!! ��
 
The problem I had with the Thorowgood (my grey only grew to 15hh) is that they don't make the cob one short enough. So I had to try the pony version on her and even though the width was OK (extra wide, she's pretty broad) the tree was too curved front to back - it rocked on her back. In the end I saved up for a 2nd hand Solution - hence why I have suggested it.

My anglo also gave me terrible trouble with saddles, even though she isn't quite as wide as the grey and is long enough to take a 17 1/2 inch saddle. The 3rd saddle fitter I tried finally found a wide, close contact jumping saddle (Jeffries) as the tree was flat enough to actually fit her.

There's no harm in putting the correct gullet in the Thorowgood and seeing if it fits. As you said, you will need to check the length too.

Saddles are a minefield. I wish you lots of luck.

PS thanks for admiring Floss, she's a real character.
 
Thankyou for all your help! I may try the thorowgood with correct gullet but sadly think its too long.

its 17" but although he's 15.2hh he must be short backed as only takes a 5ft6/5ft9 rug.

Really don't know what to do �� but noway Il be able to save for solution saddle��

Aww she is stunning.

thankyou ��
 
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