Natural horsemanship yard near Aylesbury

[Blurr]

I think you've apologized enough, AJ! Ignoring that unfortunate sentence. perhaps what you really need to do is hone your skills in people vetting to ensure you get nice people and have a robust eviction policy for those that slip through the net and never mind their chosen method of training, as long as, whatever it is, it's not abusive (against yard rules).

 

[AmyJai]

I think you've apologized enough, AJ! Ignoring that unfortunate sentence. perhaps what you really need to do is hone your skills in people vetting to ensure you get nice people and have a robust eviction policy for those that slip through the net and never mind their chosen method of training, as long as, whatever it is, it's not abusive (against yard rules).

Yes that's a very good idea. Thank you

 

[Shilasdair]

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this? As I keep saying I'm sorry if I offended anyone, its come across completely the wrong way :/

I stalked you in some of your old posts, and you sound very young, and very inexperienced.
Horses do need discipline - I don't ride now, but always rode with a whip, and I smack them when needed. Horses are large, unpredictable animals with brains the size of a walnut and primitive reactions. Loving on them without discipline just isn't going to cut it, no matter how many Disney films one watches.
S

 

[PaddyMonty]

If people are having to treat their horses with aggression for years then they really aren't doing it right.
The correct level of aggression should not require repeating after a couple of times.

 

[Shilasdair]

If people are having to treat their horses with aggression for years then they really aren't doing it right.
The correct level of aggression should not require repeating after a couple of times.

Agree. Put the fear of death into them properly the first time.
The same might be said of students...
S

 

[fburton]

For some types of NH the willingness to beat or otherwise terrify a horse is a desirable trait, you could fit right in!

(Please be assured I'm speaking in jest, as I understand you were in your statement )

Quite so - but there is a grain of truth in what you say. That someone follows or trains in Natural Horsemanship is absolutely no guarantee that horses won't be treated aggressively.

 

[Polos Mum]

I stalked you in some of your old posts, and you sound very young, and very inexperienced.
Horses do need discipline - I don't ride now, but always rode with a whip, and I smack them when needed. Horses are large, unpredictable animals with brains the size of a walnut and primitive reactions. Loving on them without discipline just isn't going to cut it, no matter how many Disney films one watches.
S

Very true - the right timed smack and an odd growl now and again will save them a lifetime of bad manners which ultimately leads to being passed around and poorly 'diagnosed' with good knows what!
From a NH perspective - spend a day watching a herd acting together in the field, ideally with some youngsters or with a bale of hay out - see how many times one horse nips or kicks another and then think about how they have evolved to communicate and understand who leads the herd and why everyone has to follow the rules.,

 

[Shilasdair]

Quite so - but there is a grain of truth in what you say. That someone follows or trains in Natural Horsemanship is absolutely no guarantee that horses won't be treated aggressively.

Although NH horses seem much, much less likely to be ridden therefore less danger of being ridden aggressively.
S

 

[fburton]

From a NH perspective - spend a day watching a herd acting together in the field, ideally with some youngsters or with a bale of hay out - see how many times one horse nips or kicks another and then think about how they have evolved to communicate and understand who leads the herd and why everyone has to follow the rules.,

And this is precisely where and why NH goes wrong/bad, in my opinion - by following the line of argument that says anything natural, in the sense of what horses do to each other, should be emulated by humans. What nonsense!

 

[fburton]

Although NH horses seem much, much less likely to be ridden therefore less danger of being ridden aggressively.
S

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

 

[Cobbytype]

I think it sounds pretty good. With just 8 stables, I can't see that there would be a problem in filling those places with your 'niche' NH ideas. I didn't come across as 'dictatorial' to me and worded correctly, the concept could be attractive to potential clients.

I know very little about NH, but my sister and partner are into it and often go off to a specialist yard for a training break with their Western ridden horses. They love it because they're mixing with people who have similar interests and training methods, whereas back home they're a little isolated.

 

[3OldPonies]

To be honest, to me it all sounds a bit 'fluffy bunny'. I'm all in favour of treating horses kindly, fairly and with respect - not aggression; however, where NH falls down in my estimation of it is that unfortunately some people seem to use it as an excuse to let their horses get away with just about anything. The idea of a NH yard is a good one, but only if you have a proper practitioner in charge, who can teach, help and advise the liveries on how to practise the chosen method of NH, not an inexperienced person who has maybe attended a couple of clinics or training days (which sorry OP you do sound like in your posts).

I do think OP that you are tarring an awful lot of people with the 'aggression' brush. There is a world of difference between beating a horse and giving it a sharp reminder that it needs to remember its manners whether on the ground or ridden. If as you say you have been on a yard where people are overly aggressive, perhaps you need to go somewhere with a more balanced and educated approach, dare I say it, even a traditional approach. Where you will see that the majority of people care deeply about their horses and their welfare and whilst they may give them the odd slap for biting, or standing on their feet is that really any worse than a mare driving off another horse with her heels if that horse dares to bite her?

 

[Annagain]

I'm sorry if i offended you, I really was not suggesting that at all and am very upset it has come across this way. I use a mish mash of methods too and have very happy horses, and what you are doing sounds ideal. I really was not expecting this post to insult and should have re-read it before I posted.

Don't worry I don't offend very easily, it did come across a bit like "my way is the only correct way" but I appreciate it was badly worded rather than deliberate.

My only concern for you is it might be a bit niche to be viable.

 

[SpringArising]

I'm all in favour of treating horses kindly, fairly and with respect - not aggression; however, where NH falls down in my estimation of it is that unfortunately some people seem to use it as an excuse to let their horses get away with just about anything.

Do you have any examples of this? From what I have seen and read, that isn't my experience at all.

NH isn't about omitting discipline at all, which a lot of people seem to think - it's about doing it in a different way to the 'norm' (hitting, shouting etc.)

Whether that's right or wrong, no one is the jury.

 

[Ladyinred]

You do rather wonder at the experience of the OP, given that you don't need to know much about NH before you know that would end up in a dual at dawn, the Parelli-ite must surely chose the carrot stick and the MR follower the long lines. Where would the buck stopp(er)? haha! And a clicker trainer referee desperately looking for something worth reinforcing, repeating the holy mantra of "ignore the bad" and comfort eating the treats.

The buck stopp(er) made me spit tea!

 

[3OldPonies]

Do you have any examples of this? From what I have seen and read, that isn't my experience at all.

NH isn't about omitting discipline at all, which a lot of people seem to think - it's about doing it in a different way to the 'norm' (hitting, shouting etc.)

Whether that's right or wrong, no one is the jury.

Yep I do indeed, otherwise I wouldn't have written it, I don't want to expand on it here in case the person I am referring to is also a forum member. And in fact I agree NH isn't all about forgetting discipline, it's just my experience of talking with this person and watching her handle her horse (and him walking - literally at times - all over her).

btw - 'the norm' is not hitting, shouting etc. In fact I don't know anyone like that at all, if anyone thinks that is normal then they have a problem, because it honestly isn't normal and usually the tactic of people with limited knowledge who think that it makes them look good. You'll see plenty of this type at shows over the summer and I would hope that if anyone comes across one of these people, whether on a yard or at a show they will try to help the horse concerned and show the person the error of their ways.

 

[SpottyMare]

I think I know what you mean. However - it's just horsemanship, and not the sole province of someone wearing a cowboy hat Most trainers lumped into the natural horsemanship category dislike the term as there's nothing natural about the human relationship with the horse.

Have a look at this site, as these guys are already doing something not too far off what you seem to be thinking, although they are part of the Intelligent Horsemanship network rather than covering all bases... http://whisperingback.co.uk/livery/ Personally, I'd be far more inclined to go for something like this (or the yard I'm on at the moment, which is heaven as it has genuinely unrestricted turnout) than a lot of the yards I see on my travels.

 

[SpringArising]

Yep I do indeed, otherwise I wouldn't have written it, I don't want to expand on it here in case the person I am referring to is also a forum member.

So, 'some people' is just one person, then?

 

[Ladyinred]

One for you to look at OP:

http://www.stonecirclelivery.com/

 

[Shilasdair]

Do you have any examples of this? From what I have seen and read, that isn't my experience at all.

NH isn't about omitting discipline at all, which a lot of people seem to think - it's about doing it in a different way to the 'norm' (hitting, shouting etc.)

Whether that's right or wrong, no one is the jury.

ETA - I should say I worked at a large show venue or this makes me sound like a weirdo lurker.
I have watched plenty of 'hitting, shouting' etc by NH practitioners in the day/evening before the clinics. I particularly remember having to fight the urge to shout 'liar!' when one of the NH gurus announced to the audience 'I have never seen this horse before' prior to backing it.
I had watched them try out about 6 horses, working them hard, backing them etc, the night before when they'd discarded anything that was uncooperative, or sharp and picked the placid accepting ones.

So, open your eyes and your mind and look at what the horse is telling you, not the human with the microphone and the desire for your cash.

I also, incidentally 'retrained' two horses belonging to a NH mother and daughter who believed in love. Unfortunately these horses both had behavioural issues which the NH couldn't cure - on being hacked out they would stop, back up and rear. This was put down to neurological issues, and/or brain tumours.
It took three smacks with the whip at the first nap, and mysteriously they were cured, and lived happy hacking and ridden lives, rather than being PTS.
S

 

[Pilib]

Do you have any examples of this? From what I have seen and read, that isn't my experience at all.

NH isn't about omitting discipline at all, which a lot of people seem to think - it's about doing it in a different way to the 'norm' (hitting, shouting etc.).

Whether that's right or wrong, no one is the jury.

Actually some of the worst aggression I have seen is from Linda Parelli and the one eyed horse! The video is on you tube

 

[Ladyinred]

Actually some of the worst aggression I have seen is from Linda Parelli and the one eyed horse! The video is on you tube

Very true. One of the worst videos around from Parelli.

 

[Fun Times]

Based on my horse and my methods, I would avoid the yard. But thats just because I know we wouldnt fit it, thats not to say it wouldnt be a commercially viable yard. With only eight or so stables to fill, i am sure you will find sufficient like minded individuals. My concern is that you have some kind of romantic idyllic yard in mind, where all is harmonious and well, but in my experience life in the horse world (and particularly with half a dozen or so liveries) is rarely that way.

 

[fburton]

Actually some of the worst aggression I have seen is from Linda Parelli and the one eyed horse! The video is on you tube

That was one example that came to mind when I posted earlier. However, it is certainly not the only one. Quite a few US natural horsemanship practitioners (not Parelli) are, in my view, unnecessarily brutish and rough - although no doubt quite effective in their own way.

 

[SpringArising]

Very true. One of the worst videos around from Parelli.

Actually some of the worst aggression I have seen is from Linda Parelli and the one eyed horse! The video is on you tube

I know. But that's not what I was asking for. I asked for examples of people who use NH as an excuse to let their horses walk all over them, because another poster said that in their experience, that is what some people who practice NH techniques do. My argument was that, from what I've seen, that's not entirely true (and the video of Linda is proof that not everyone who likes NH or Parelli is a fluffy-bunny with no backbone).

I saw the video when it first went viral and was as shocked as everyone else (so much so that I emailed the Parelli support team!). I'm also aware that there is bad sportsmanship in Parelli - just as there is in dressage, SJ, polo and whatever other discipline you can think of.

I'm not a die-hard fan of NH, because to be honest, I mish-mash a few different methods to suit me and the horse I'm dealing with at the time.

I have no problem if people don't like NH and whatever else is associated with it.

 

[Donkey66]

The aim of Parelli, to formalise an accessible programme of horse and horse owner training, is laudable. The information and techniques are not exclusive to Parelli just differently packaged, presented and available in one place. I have two main issues with the regime.

1 The distance learning system means that some one can watch the videos and 'have a go', getting it all wrong, confusing the horse and making things worse. Simply owning the videos will not guarantee a beautifully trained horse.
2 Maintaining that all other systems, (or non systems i.e. traditional), are cruel and brutal and result in substandard horses.

If you want to run a livery stable why don't you take all-comers and then offer NH training and clinics? That way you may be able to convert more to the cause.

I did a little Parelli with my youngster; I taught her to touch things with her nose when asked, she now trusts me when I ask her to approach a scary monster and if scared doesn't try to bog off.
Its not all bad, but it's not the complete answer to everything either.

 

[3OldPonies]

So, 'some people' is just one person, then?

One in particular sprang to mind, there are others as well, but I don't see why I have to justify myself to you. You are just nitpicking for the sake of it now. I am not going to go into details for the reason stated, for either the person I mentioned or the others. I stand by my comment that I wouldn't have made posted as I did if I did not have experience of what I was talking about.

 

[digitalangel]

im very local to the OP, and honestly, theres not a huge call for it around the area... i might be wrong though!

Good luck, OP, i think youre gonna need it!

 

[Red-1]

I applaud OP for coming and asking the question for market research, and also for the polite replies to some concerns brought up. I like that she apologised for any misunderstanding. Some more established companies have not done that well.

As for the yard, well, I think it would need careful marketing. Maybe what people would like is a yard where people are respectful of each other. Plus where horses are not treated unfairly. I guess many people aspire to this, but from what I have seen it requires strong leadership from YO or YM, to set the ground rules and enforce them.

I train confidence clients in a variety of different yards, and often, if people have had a bad trauma or injury, or sometimes if they have just become fixed in an unhelpful pattern of thoughts, they need to start again, and do something different.

Some yards are great and supportive when the client has a new approach, they can see that the person is re-gaining control. Often that does not involve riding to start with, but ground work, lunge, long lining, clicker, silly games, obstacle courses...... But with every client so far it has also led to riding.

Sadly some yards have a culture where the client is ridiculed. Maybe they are told that what they do, playing "silly games" with their horse, is somehow less valid then what they do. This may be going out and walking the block, tearing up and down a field, or indeed going into the same school, but doing ridden schooling or jumping.

I love all of these activities, but it can be very draining if someone is not ready for some of those activities, to have their choice of activity to have fun and enjoy time with their horse ridiculed.

I think many people would love a yard where you could, for instance, get out a flag and podium, and have fun seeing what you and your horse can achieve, and the only reaction from other liveries be polite interest. Even better if they thought it looked like fun, and joined in. But, at the same time I would not like a yard where if I packed away the toys and did some serious training, and went off eventing, that this would be thought of as wrong.

That is where I think the fault lies. Not in what the yard "does", but that people are "ruled" by a person in charge so if there are any concerns they can go to the YO or YM and it is sorted out professionally. That way everyone feels secure to mind their own business at worst, and to enjoy other people's successes at best. If people do not like that then they are required to leave.

From a situation at a former workplace I know how an ethos of disrespect and bitchiness can be turned round. It is by leadership and leading by example.

OP, this is what I would market at.

 

[SO1]

A lot of NH people don't seem to like part or full livery they seem to prefer DIY where they can handle the horse themselves most of the time.

The best yards seem to be the ones where both horses and people are treated as individuals rather than a one size fits all scenario. If you have only 8 stables then you should be able to find enough part or full livery people and be able to use your methods to handle the horses without having to say you are a NH yard.

Obviously if you find traditional methods of training offensive then you will need to let potential customers know that you will only accept people who have the same training methods as yourself which you might find rules out some perfectly nice people who treat their horses well but do not consider them NH people.