natural horsemanship

[jolie1234]

can anyone suggest any good books or dvds that can show me how to use natural horsemanship to do tricks with my horse?

what natural horsemanship exercises do you do?and why?

 

[PandorasJar]

I don't personally do NH.

But 'tricks' etc I do with mine, mainly as she loathed human contact so I made her have full on contact to get carrot rewards and scratches.

Carrot stretchs, cuddles round me and nose on hooves. She bows too (she worked this one out herself after not getting treated for touching hoof with nose, so took it a step further ), she picks up buckets and dog tug of war toys.

What sort of tricks are you after doing?

Pan

 

[Morgan123]

You don't need to do 'natural horsemanship' to do tricks.

If it's tricks you're after, look into clicker training!

 

[Enfys]

Realistically everything we do with a horse is trick training if you think about it.

Alexandra Kurland http://www.theclickercenter.com/

Carol Fletcher : http://www.trickhorse.com/

Shawna Karrasch (is a member on here by the way): http://www.on-target-training.com/about.php

www.imagineahorse.com

A few to begin with, all use clicker training.

Have fun.

 

[jolie1234]

well i know people who did it without clicker training so i thought it would be just as good to use NH, as i understand it better than clicker training just basics to start off with like lowering the head and bowing but would like to go on to bigger ones like lying down n rearing? i know it takes time but ive never done this stuff before so would like to make sure i do it right

 

[LollyDolly]

but would like to go on to bigger ones like lying down n rearing

Good lord! NEVER teach a ridden horse to rear, you are opening yourself up for a world of problems. Leave stunts like that to the professionals! For starters why would people want to teach their horse to rear, when I see a rearing horse I think how inexperienced/green the horse is and if I see someone making the horse rear all I think is that they are a jackass.
When riding a horse there are only so many cues you can give, and horses do get confused! We've all ridden horses when they don't quite know what is being asked of them. So say you teach the horse to rear, then one day you ask it to back up. The horse may get confused and rear, thinking that is what you were asking it. Leaving the rider unprepared and most likely scared and shaken up.
Or, even worse, say that someone else is riding your horse! Maybe they are coming to view it for a potential sale? They could ask a simple command of it which the horse could mistake for the cue to rear, now how bad does that look?
Now then before people start flaming about the Spanish Riding horses bear in mind that they are,
1. Trained by professionals.
2. Not even rearing, the move is called Haute Ecole and it is NOT a rear, the horses are tremendously well schooled in order to build up the necessary muscle to perform this action safely and well, it takes years of practice and training before they even begin to learn this movement. It is nothing like teaching an ordinary horse to rear.

Another problem with rearing in general is that the horse could slip or go up too vertical, which could cause it (and you!!) to go over backwards. Broken pelvis anyone?

Why someone would want to teach a horse to rear is beyond me, I would be far more impressed by seeing a well schooled horse going on a lovely contact and doing things such as picking up the correct canter lead when asked on a circle or performing correct canter lead changes.

Ps. Even if the horse isn't ridden ie. it's a pet Shettie I still don't approve as it can still cause behavioral problems!

No matter what, NEVER praise/reward a horse for performing a dangerous act. I don't care how 'cool' it looks!

 

[Enfys]

Why someone would want to teach a horse to rear is beyond me, It is always illuminating to discover the reason why. Sometimes there is logical reasoning behind it. I'll tell you why I teach horses to rear, and I have only ever taught TWO to do it. One an arab gelding who had a habit of 'playing' with people on the lunge, or loose. He would rear at you. So - I taught him to rear on cue. Then I stopped giving him the cue and he didn't rear anymore. The best reason in the world I can think of to teach a horse to go up is to keep it down

The second, the mini in the picture. Same again, at 18 months he got colty, so, ignoring the fact that he was only 30" high, I taught him to rear, for exactly the same reason.

I would be far more impressed by seeing a well schooled horse going on a lovely contact and doing things such as picking up the correct canter lead when asked on a circle or performing correct canter lead changes.

Ps. Even if the horse isn't ridden ie. it's a pet Shettie I still don't approve as it can still cause behavioral problems! Perhaps so, when used unwisely, in my case it solved the issue

No matter what, NEVER praise/reward a horse for performing a dangerous act. I don't care how 'cool' it looks!

You are entitled to your opinion and in the great majority of cases you are absolutely correct in that, I agree.

Horses that have been taught tricks do present problems such as you gave as examples.
Any horse that has been taught 'a trick' as opposed to normal behaviours, which are still just tricks, like head lowering, picking up feet, standing still when told to, tying up (and a damn sight more could benefit from learning the last two properly) loading blah, blah, blah should be sold on with, literally, an Instruction Manual. Responsible owners have been known to include video footage of cues etc.

 

[rhino]

When riding a horse there are only so many cues you can give, and horses do get confused!

2. Not even rearing, the move is called Haute Ecole and it is NOT a rear,

Why someone would want to teach a horse to rear is beyond me, I would be far more impressed by seeing a well schooled horse going on a lovely contact and doing things such as picking up the correct canter lead when asked on a circle or performing correct canter lead changes.

Haute Ecole, or 'High School' is the training, Levade is the movement.

Teaching particular cues for rearing can be a very successful way of teaching a horse with a tendency to rear, to not rear, unless on command. Horses are intelligent animals so to say there are only so many cues you can give suggests more about the handler's ability than the horse.

The trained stunt horses (professional and not) I've ridden have never reared when not specifically asked to; in fact with one it took a lot of teaching to find the right signals. Generally people who can train their horses well in trick training, also have horses who can canter on the correct lead too

Not for a novice, or for a horse you're going to sell on, but to suggest that correct trick training automatically results in uncontrollable rearing is a bit daft IMO.

 

[LollyDolly]

Yes, trained stunt horses. Presumably trained by professionals?

What I am saying is that normal, everyday horse owners should not dabble in trying to teach horses dangerous movements, such as rearing. Do you disagree with this?

 

[JFTDWS]

. So say you teach the horse to rear, then one day you ask it to back up. The horse may get confused and rear, thinking that is what you were asking it. Leaving the rider unprepared and most likely scared and shaken up.

Absolutely. If you teach a horse to rear badly, that is. If you ask a horse to rear or rein back by hanging on its mouth, I can see where the confusion would arise. It is possible to train a horse to respond to discrete aids - and indeed, rein back should be asked for completely differently to rearing.

Or, even worse, say that someone else is riding your horse! Maybe they are coming to view it for a potential sale? They could ask a simple command of it which the horse could mistake for the cue to rear, now how bad does that look?

Again, absolutely If you're stupid enough to pick a combination of aids which could be hit upon by accident...

Now then before people start flaming about the Spanish Riding horses bear in mind that they are,
1. Trained by professionals.
2. Not even rearing, the move is called Haute Ecole and it is NOT a rear

Haute ecole, means "High school" referring to a number of movement, not limited to standing on their hind legs. Courbettes and levades are based on a "rear" type movement, and are essentially, controlled and well balanced rears.

Another problem with rearing in general is that the horse could slip or go up too vertical, which could cause it (and you!!) to go over backwards. Broken pelvis anyone?

Only if you teach a horse to rear who is psychologically unsuited to the task - I'd never teach a horse with limited "survival instinct" to rear. However, most horses won't attempt to rear vertical / unbalance without serious provocation - it's not something they do for fun, y'know.

Why someone would want to teach a horse to rear is beyond me, I would be far more impressed by seeing a well schooled horse going on a lovely contact and doing things such as picking up the correct canter lead when asked on a circle or performing correct canter lead changes.

And if your horse does all of these tidily in addition to performing tricks? It's not "either or" you know.

In cases like this, I always say that the argument "teach your horse to rear on command and it will rear as a vice" is as flawed as suggesting that teaching your youngster to canter on request will encourage it pick up bolting as a vice.

Aside from anything else, nobody teaches a horse to rear - one teaches a horse to rear on command - horses know how to rear, just watch them in the field. If they're going to do it under saddle as a vice, they will do, whether you teach them on command or not.

I'd also like to point out that this pony rears on command, is working successfully at novice dr (i.e. he picks up the right leads in canter ), plays horseball, jumps obediently and routinely gets full marks in TREC rein back movements without ever rearing off command. He's also been ridden by a number of forum members who can vouch that he will not go up unless you get the commands spot on.

x-posted with enfys and rhino

 

[rhino]

Yes, trained stunt horses. Presumably trained by professionals?

What I am saying is that normal, everyday horse owners should not dabble in trying to teach horses dangerous movements, such as rearing. Do you disagree with this?

No, in most cases trained by your average horse owner, who looks beyond what the BHS says is the only way to train horses.

If I want to teach my normal, everyday horse to rear, I think that my instructor and I are the only ones in a position to judge whether I am competent to do it. All of the horses on my (classical) yard are given the opportunity to express rearing/levade at an appropriate part of their training; if they don't take to it we don't progress the schooling any further in that movement.

Any movement can be deemed 'dangerous' if it is asked for or given inappropriately. The point about teaching rearing is that it shouldn't be given inappropriately, unlike your average rearer who uses it as an evasion.

 

[Enfys]

Yes, trained stunt horses. Presumably trained by professionals?

What I am saying is that normal, everyday horse owners should not dabble in trying to teach horses dangerous movements, such as rearing. Do you disagree with this?

Yes I do disagree, in part.

Why should everyday, normal horse owners not aim a little higher? If everyone stopped at jumping cross poles, or a simple volte, then how would tomorrows professionals develop?

Common Sense is a required ingredient hand in hand with the understanding of the consequences caused by the action, even normal, everyday people have that sometimes, it can even be developed, with practice, instruction and encouragement.

Some people shouldn't be allowed on a stable yard let alone near a horse, or on a bike, behind a steering wheel, near a child, etc, etc.

 

[LollyDolly]

Well that is my personal opinion on the matter, if it is done properly and professionally then I don't have a problem with it, I really don't. But I believe that it needs to be done properly by someone who is experienced and who knows what they are doing.
I never once questioned anybody's competence Rhino, I just said that it should be left to more experienced riders. I never singled out anyone and said that they weren't capable of doing it.

 

[rhino]

I never once questioned anybody's competence Rhino, I just said that it should be left to more experienced riders. I never singled out anyone and said that they weren't capable of doing it.

No, you said it should be left to professionals, I don't think any of us 'jackasses' are professional horse people

 

[Patterdale]

JFTD hes a babe!!

 

[LollyDolly]

There's no pleasing some people

 

[JFTDWS]

JFTD hes a babe!!

Thanks

Not bad for a pony whose entire ridden education has been planned and implemented by a jackass, eh?!

 

[Enfys]

Well that is my personal opinion on the matter, if it is done properly and professionally then I don't have a problem with it, I really don't. But I believe that it needs to be done properly by someone who is experienced and who knows what they are doing.
I never once questioned anybody's competence Rhino, I just said that it should be left to more experienced riders. I never singled out anyone and said that they weren't capable of doing it.

See, that is the problem, a vicious circle.
No-one can become experienced without experiencing something and if no-one had reached out to gain that experience then, basically, we'd all still be chasing horses off cliffs and eating them

 

[Littlelegs]

I must be a jackass too, if mine was younger I would teach it her happily. As it is, we have a command for broncing & bucking. Not yet done it with any of the kids or teens that have ridden her. And its not a set of commands anyone's going to hit on by accident. Unlike the aids for gallop, they're pretty simple to get accidently but she hasn't yet bolted, & I doubt at 23 she's likely to start.

 

[Goldenstar]

Yes, trained stunt horses. Presumably trained by professionals?

What I am saying is that normal, everyday horse owners should not dabble in trying to teach horses dangerous movements, such as rearing. Do you disagree with this?

What's the difference between a professional and an owner?
There's nothing magical about being paid for something that makes someone better at it.
I taught my Anglo Arab to rear when I was 15 I taught all sorts of tricks we where great mates she never reared unless I wanted her to.
Just because you don't approve of something does not mean its wrong.

 

[LollyDolly]

GAH! Posters I don't mean to call you jackasses! I am just that terribly annoying sort of person who always says the wrong thing, I am FOREVER putting my foot in it. In fact, I don't just put my foot in it, I put my entire leg in it and flail around a bit.

Sorry if I offended anyone, I don't think that you guys are jackasses!

Edited to add! I also don't mean to imply that I am right, I really don't mean to seem like whatever I say is right and everybody else is wrong because they don't agree with me. It's just incredibly difficult to convey your meanings through written (or typed?) text when you are as awkward as I am!

 

[Patterdale]

I'm currently teaching my 3yo to bow as I can't ride at the moment. He's loving it

 

[JFTDWS]

I'm currently teaching my 3yo to bow as I can't ride at the moment. He's loving it

Mine just before his 2nd birthday, he was also kneeling this day

and Fergs

Can't beat trick training for fun if you can't ride for any reason / just fancy a change

 

[Goldenstar]

Cute pony overload.

 

[Patterdale]

JFTD how do you fo it? I have been getting him to put head between legs using carrots and progressing to picking leg up....he's got quite a personality which helps!
Is that how you do it??

Fergs is such a legend!!

 

[JFTDWS]

I did circus bows (using carrots, both feet on the ground, just a stretch really) a lot first. Then, I started picking his foot up and luring him down with a carrot into a bow - took a few goes before he realised he could put his leg down on the ground though! The main thing is to make sure the bent leg goes down flat, rather than knee first into the ground as you can damage the knee doing that. I used knee boots at first to give him some protection (spesh as I don't have a surface to do it on!). Then I progressed to picking up his foot and just drawing it slightly back, which cues a bow. Then I worked on touching his cannon bone with a whip to pick it up and the knee to draw it back and bow without me physically doing anything. The last bit is still a bit hit or miss though

Thanks He is quite awesome - and his little "brother" Darach's not bad either He's just started doing liberty lateral work (turn on forehand, walk SI) with me and he tries so hard to please

eta, there's more than one way to skin a cat though, and I'd just play around and see what works for you

 

[fburton]

Why should everyday, normal horse owners not aim a little higher? If everyone stopped at jumping cross poles, or a simple volte, then how would tomorrows professionals develop?

Like these folk...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH3bzZ2hWqE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLJUAXnecME

(Not very British, I admit!)

 

[Dry Rot]

I'm expecting great things from jftd. Just to show what Highland ponies are capable of, have a look at this lot!

http://highland-show.com/

 

[Patterdale]

Thank you!! When I finally succeed, will post photos!
The one I'm trying to teach is a section d, I'm thinking we start a native pony circus????

 

[JFTDWS]

I'm expecting great things from jftd.

no pressure then

Thank you!! When I finally succeed, will post photos!
The one I'm trying to teach is a section d, I'm thinking we start a native pony circus????

Sounds good to me