Nature or Nurture

Stiff Knees

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Not even sure if the thread title is relevant...but...We see our 12 year old Labrador's (Jake) litter sister Mol, on a very regular basis and what has recently become very obvious to me is how much better she is ageing than he is. Even though they are litter mates, they are polar opposites of one another. Jake is a big, long, lithe dog, Mol is small, squat and not athletic. Jake has never carried any excess weight, Mol is as fat as a seal. Jake gets joint supplements, and all kinds of additions to his diet to keep him fit, Mol is given nothing. Jake gets a great quality dog food, Mol is fed standard supermarket dog food. He has arthritis, Mol seems not to suffer at all. Jake gets dried off when wet and has a lovely bed to rest his head, Mol stays wet or gets dried with newspaper if she's lucky and sleeps on an old chair where the springs stick through. She is a farm dog, he is not. Everything about their lives is different bar the fact that they are completely adored by their owners. Makes me wonder whether the (many) thousands of £s I've spent on Jake over his lifetime have helped him at all? Not that I'm going to stop. Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge the money I've spent but I do wonder whether all the supplements etc been value for money. Was recently recommended Flaxseed Oil by a forum member and we definitely won't be stopping that because he adores the taste and his coat is shinier than ever. We also have a two year old Lab and she too is on supplements and oils and I won't be stopping any of those either. Not sure what the purpose of this thread is really 🤔. Feel free to ignore my ramblings. 🙄
 

DabDab

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I think most of us have had similar ponderings at one point or another!

Sometimes the fittest looking specimens seem to be the ones always breaking down and those that break all the good lifestyle rules stay healthy (i certainly know plenty of humans that fall into both categories). I guess as caring animal owners we all keep going a lot of the time on believing that we can keep our beloved animals safe from ailment by being diligent owners, we kinda need that belief I think.
 

Stiff Knees

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I think most of us have had similar ponderings at one point or another!

Sometimes the fittest looking specimens seem to be the ones always breaking down and those that break all the good lifestyle rules stay healthy (i certainly know plenty of humans that fall into both categories). I guess as caring animal owners we all keep going a lot of the time on believing that we can keep our beloved animals safe from ailment by being diligent owners, we kinda need that belief I think.
I agree, I need the satisfaction of knowing that I've done all I can to keep them healthy. Our dear Spot was almost 17 when we lost her so I guess I must be getting something at least a little bit right.
 

splashgirl45

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in any human family you can get siblings who have different levels of good health, some can be bouncing around with no aches and pains and others could have terrible illnesses., its the luck of the draw so i dont see why it shouldnt happen to animals as well. so maybe the same with your lab...in the horse world it seems to be the same, those of us who care and pander to our horses every need seem to end up with them on the sick list but the horse that gets dragged out of the field and galloped about then shoved back in the field with no washing off or special feeds seems to always be sound.....dont know what the answer is...
 

{97702}

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Here are the original greyhound gang in 2015.... raw fed from Manifold Valley Meats, nothing but the best quality for them 😊

5AE8F4B0-7EF3-4596-A09C-E4A9157A2CCA.jpeg

And here are the current greyhound gang looking equally spectacular (although the shot isn’t as good to show off their shiny coats as well!) fed on Arden Grange kibble!

9A31830F-4747-45A4-8B86-5754021281E7.jpeg

Amy looks a bit older obviously.... but other than that I’ve come to the conclusion that as long as you feed good quality food you can almost try too hard with dogs and you won’t always get a reward for your efforts if that makes sense? So I don’t feed supplements (unless their health specifically requires it) and just carry on.... 😊😊😊
 

CorvusCorax

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Good health and longevity is generally genetic but too much strain on the joints too young can damage even genetically good joints.

Both of mine are heading towards veteran status and are often mistaken for pups.
One has a supplement as he is a tad less robust than the other and prone to knocks and scrapes, but not related. One of his litter is dead but I'm not sure how. All the dogs from the father do share characteristics in terms of their movement.

The father of the indestructible one (touch wood) just passed away aged 13, all his 'uncles' on both sides and hus maternal grandsire lived to 15 or 16.
His litter was small, his brother, is massive, he and his sister were tiny. All good health but he and the brother have very strong temperament and the female is very soft. None of them look anything like each other 😂

I have to say that the dogs I know that look older than their years/are very grey around the muzzle all have one thing in common, positive-only training methodology. Purely my own observation but something to think on.

ETA one of our females lived to 14 with a broken (permanently pinned) foreleg with hardly a day of lameness, fed on a crappy muesli (when any dry food was a revelation). She was totally HD free under the BVA, which was rare in those days, done after the break, so despite the redistribution of weight-bearing.
DM got her in the end.
 
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Stiff Knees

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Jake looks younger than his years, Mol older, but he's the more broken of the two. There's no point using negative enforcement with Jake because he thinks he is your equal, and simply ignores you. The only way to get him to do anything is by asking nicely. He's blooming fabulous!
 

Stiff Knees

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Also to add, we got Jake at 7 months old, he was very leggy, big and sort of floppy for his age so his feeding regime may have been off as a very young dog. I remember the vet telling us we needed to slow down his growth by reducing his protein intake which we did but perhaps the damage had already been done, who knows?
 

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Interesting thread, OP. I'm on my second set of litter mates. The first set was Jake and Brig. Jake was pts aged 7 as soon as we discovered he had spinal and stomach cancer. He'd also had both cruciates repaired with TPLOs. Brig had a touch of arthritis in one paw, he may have broken a toe at some point. He also had a heart murmur but lived til almost 16. Jake often had a black cloud over his head and was a moody little so and so. Brig was Mr Sunshine.

The current two are Bear and Zak. Bear loves everyone, Zak does not. Zak has HD, Bear may have elbow dysplasia. Zak is extremely dog aggressive, Bear is not. Exactly the same upbringing, but Zak is the more intelligent, thinks more, is stubborn and independent but clearly less resilient.

Fascinating thread!
 

skinnydipper

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Interesting thread, OP. I'm on my second set of litter mates. The first set was Jake and Brig. Jake was pts aged 7 as soon as we discovered he had spinal and stomach cancer. He'd also had both cruciates repaired with TPLOs. Brig had a touch of arthritis in one paw, he may have broken a toe at some point. He also had a heart murmur but lived til almost 16. Jake often had a black cloud over his head and was a moody little so and so. Brig was Mr Sunshine.

The current two are Bear and Zak. Bear loves everyone, Zak does not. Zak has HD, Bear may have elbow dysplasia. Zak is extremely dog aggressive, Bear is not. Exactly the same upbringing, but Zak is the more intelligent, thinks more, is stubborn and independent but clearly less resilient.

Fascinating thread!

Do you think that the fact that Zak must be in some degree of pain at all times, has something to do with his aggression? He may be trying to protect himself from further pain. It was something that I thought about with my last dog who did not appreciate the close proximity of unknown dogs.
 

Equi

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The only dog I’ve had who I was able to track down littermates for was my staff. I brought her up on the yard so admittedly she didn’t get dog socialisation bar my other dogs and a few friends dogs we would walk with. She was always quite nervous and very dog aggressive but never people aggressive. Her sister was brought up in a family home in a built up area and always in the park etc but from the post I found was very dog aggressive too despite the owners attempts at socialisation and training etc. Her mother was very confident and dog friendly but father was known to be a bit of a jack the lad.
 

Cinnamontoast

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Looking at his x rays and speaking to the vet (well, several vets) I'd say he's not in pain. He has the most beautiful trot, so graceful and is generally a very active, happy dog, never grumpy. He doesn't seem to restrict himself in any way or to ever appear uncomfortable.

He just hates other dogs after being attacked by the neighbour's son's dog. He was then tortured by this dog often visiting the neighbour and we came across it a few times in the woods, never close, but even Brig, Mr Sunshine, hated it. It's now a learned behaviour, although unless a dog comes right up to him, he won't do anything.
 

Stiff Knees

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Interesting thread, OP. I'm on my second set of litter mates. The first set was Jake and Brig. Jake was pts aged 7 as soon as we discovered he had spinal and stomach cancer. He'd also had both cruciates repaired with TPLOs. Brig had a touch of arthritis in one paw, he may have broken a toe at some point. He also had a heart murmur but lived til almost 16. Jake often had a black cloud over his head and was a moody little so and so. Brig was Mr Sunshine.

The current two are Bear and Zak. Bear loves everyone, Zak does not. Zak has HD, Bear may have elbow dysplasia. Zak is extremely dog aggressive, Bear is not. Exactly the same upbringing, but Zak is the more intelligent, thinks more, is stubborn and independent but clearly less resilient.

Fascinating thread!
Gosh, chalk and cheese! Loving their names by the way CT. 😍
 

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I'd say it's mostly down to genes, obviously inherited genes are passed down in different ratios so one litter mate may genetically be much stronger and healthier than another meaning it will cope better with a poor diet or exercise regime, the same with behaviours in that genetics can make a dog more fearful or anxious, in both these cases all we can do is care for the dog the best way we can and hopefully we can offset some of the poor genetics a little bit.
 

Stiff Knees

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I do wonder how Jake would have fared if he had led Mol's life, he would have been loved, no doubt about that, but not cared for in the same way as we care for him. Mol's owners says exactly the same thing so I'm not speaking out of turn. I wonder if he would have aged differently though...been tougher..?
 

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I had 2 brown ('chocolate') litter sisters, one had to be pts at 18 months because of Hodgekins disease, the other developed epilepsy shortly afterwards but lived until a month short of her 15th birthday, when she too was found to have cancer, of the pancreas.

I then got a single pup to fill the gap, I knew one of her litter sisters until her owners moved when they were both about 8 and very healthy, mine lived to be 15.

6 years ago we got 2 Rottweiler litter sisters, we have just had to have one pts because of cancer of the spleen which was found to have spread, when the vets operated to remove the spleen. The other, although she has had a few minor ailments, appears to be hale and hearty. They have always had very different characters.

To cheer the remaining rotter (and ourselves) up we have collected litter sister Labs, one black, one yellow, this weekend. Even at 8 weeks they have very different characters.
 

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I have to say that the dogs I know that look older than their years/are very grey around the muzzle all have one thing in common, positive-only training methodology. Purely my own observation but something to think on.
Interesting observation, do you think that purely positive only training can be confusing for dogs so can make them more anxious which then leads to them appearing to age quicker?
 

skinnydipper

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I had 2 brown ('chocolate') litter sisters, one had to be pts at 18 months because of Hodgekins disease, the other developed epilepsy shortly afterwards but lived until a month short of her 15th birthday, when she too was found to have cancer, of the pancreas.

I then got a single pup to fill the gap, I knew one of her litter sisters until her owners moved when they were both about 8 and very healthy, mine lived to be 15.

6 years ago we got 2 Rottweiler litter sisters, we have just had to have one pts because of cancer of the spleen which was found to have spread, when the vets operated to remove the spleen. The other, although she has had a few minor ailments, appears to be hale and hearty. They have always had very different characters.

To cheer the remaining rotter (and ourselves) up we have collected litter sister Labs, one black, one yellow, this weekend. Even at 8 weeks they have very different characters.

So sorry to hear of your loss, PaS.

I hope you have many happy years with your new labs. I am sure they are keeping you busy and offer some distraction from your grief.
 

CorvusCorax

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Interesting observation, do you think that purely positive only training can be confusing for dogs so can make them more anxious which then leads to them appearing to age quicker?

I believe that ambiguity/having to make choices and decisions can be stressful for some dogs.
 

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I have to say that the dogs I know that look older than their years/are very grey around the muzzle all have one thing in common, positive-only training methodology. Purely my own observation but something to think on.
.

Brandy, our old bitch, went grey very young. She is a black lab but now, at 11, is grey all over bar the middle of her back. Her mum did the same. Her mum was a FTW, so trained in a traditional manner (that sounds awful, but I mean not fluffy), Brandy has always been a worried type so was never trained negatively as it would not have worked for her. So in this instance I don't agree with your theory, I think grey in dogs as in people is genetic.
Albeit that she does worry anyway, no matter how she is trained, so she may be bringing it on herself!
 

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Looking at his x rays and speaking to the vet (well, several vets) I'd say he's not in pain. He has the most beautiful trot, so graceful and is generally a very active, happy dog, never grumpy. He doesn't seem to restrict himself in any way or to ever appear uncomfortable.

He just hates other dogs after being attacked by the neighbour's son's dog. He was then tortured by this dog often visiting the neighbour and we came across it a few times in the woods, never close, but even Brig, Mr Sunshine, hated it. It's now a learned behaviour, although unless a dog comes right up to him, he won't do anything.

Not isolated to your own experience but it only has to be one day when the dog is in pain and he is bothered by another dog...dogs typically link things in about five seconds. The link can last a lifetime.
 

Clodagh

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6 years ago we got 2 Rottweiler litter sisters, we have just had to have one pts because of cancer of the spleen which was found to have spread, when the vets operated to remove the spleen. The other, although she has had a few minor ailments, appears to be hale and hearty. They have always had very different characters.
.

I'm sorry to hear about your dog, how very sad.
 

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Reply to OP - my OH used to have working terriers, they lived outside in kennels, they had a basket and a bit of vet bed to sleep in. They ate valu mix at £10 a bag (I wonder if you can still get it?). They all used to get injured in the line of duty and 9/10 didn't go to the vet but were washed off in the kitchen sink. They did always go to the vet when the injuries were worse than we could deal with and bounced straight back. The only first aid they ever had in the field was a bottle of salty water sloshed over their muzzles if they had a scratch. They only had puppy jabs. All lived to a ripe old age, and never had any sort of illness.
Look at a pack of foxhounds as well.
Of course, these are dogs that are bred for work not for extremes in coats/colour/cuteness/size, which must help.

The labs now live in the house, are fed MWH. have so many supplements I take ages to mix dinner (according to them) and don't really look any better or worse off.
 

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Vitalin Valumix? I think I remember it. I bet you won't change your ways either though Clodagh, like me, you like to think you're doing the best you can for them. Thanks for the Flaxseed Oil recommendation from a previous thread, they both love it 🐾😍
 

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Not isolated to your own experience but it only has to be one day when the dog is in pain and he is bothered by another dog...dogs typically link things in about five seconds. The link can last a lifetime.


My brown lab hated JRT's because when she and her sister were about 12 weeks old a JRT rushed at them snarling from behind a garden gate, as we passed. They were on leads at the time. She never did like JRT's out and about although she tolerated the pair that we got when she was older - but by that time she was living in a pack of 5 Labs and the others didn't care, so she took a lead from them.
 

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[
I'm sorry to hear about your dog, how very sad.

QUOTE="skinnydipper, post: 14060589, member: 134106"]So sorry to hear of your loss, PaS.

I hope you have many happy years with your new labs. I am sure they are keeping you busy and offer some distraction from your grief.[/QUOTE]

Thank you both. Yes it was very sudden and very sad. Her sister has been extremely unhappy since then and would not settle on her own at all. I went for a shower on Friday, she opened the dog gate and came upstairs to sit outside the bathroom door, because there was only the two of us at home. The pups have made a huge difference to her already, she is worn out! As are we :D
 

Stiff Knees

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I had 2 brown ('chocolate') litter sisters, one had to be pts at 18 months because of Hodgekins disease, the other developed epilepsy shortly afterwards but lived until a month short of her 15th birthday, when she too was found to have cancer, of the pancreas.

I then got a single pup to fill the gap, I knew one of her litter sisters until her owners moved when they were both about 8 and very healthy, mine lived to be 15.

6 years ago we got 2 Rottweiler litter sisters, we have just had to have one pts because of cancer of the spleen which was found to have spread, when the vets operated to remove the spleen. The other, although she has had a few minor ailments, appears to be hale and hearty. They have always had very different characters.

To cheer the remaining rotter (and ourselves) up we have collected litter sister Labs, one black, one yellow, this weekend. Even at 8 weeks they have very different characters.
I'm so sorry to hear this. So sad. Would love to see pics of the new pups and their rottie sister.
 

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Not isolated to your own experience but it only has to be one day when the dog is in pain and he is bothered by another dog...dogs typically link things in about five seconds. The link can last a lifetime.

So sorry to hear about your Rottie PAS. I hope you have lots of fun with the labs, and like others, can’t wait to see pics.

I have mentioned before, how the first time I let Luna off the lead at the horses. It was winter time, and they came to the gates waiting for their hay. She jumped up, and put her paws on the electric fence. She obviously got a shock, and as he was the closest, I do believe she thought Mac did it. She has given the horses a wide berth ever since. I lost Mac last November, and although she is braver with the other two, she still scoots away if they get too close.
 
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