Nature or Nuture

[SO1]

I have been around horses a long time from childhood, I am now 48.

From this forum and from being on livery yards as adult there just seems to be so many ailments horses seem to have compared to when I was a child. Things like kissing spines and ulcers were not something that I had really heard of until last few years but so many horses seem to have kissing spines or some sort of health condition.

Are we breeding horses for competition that are less hardy, is it the way we train and keep.them that is different, more advanced vet diagnosis, different sort of horse owners - when I was a child growing up in Norfolk quite a few people in the village had ponies kept at home and vet visits were rare.

On livery the vet seems to be at the yard at least once a week.

Are horses living longer due to seeing the vet more often and more options for treatment and therefore you end up with more horses with ailments due to an aging equine population similar to with people? Instead of PTS or retirement more people trying more treatments from vet due to insurance.

Horse ownership seems way more complicated and stressful than it used to be.

 

[Caol Ila]

Yes.

For what it's worth, I'm only ten years younger than you, and I don't remember any "good old days." Vet visits were not rare. Horses were complicated medical disasters. Diagnosing it just took more faff because tech was less good. But that's Boulder, CO, probably quite (very) different than Norfolk. LOLOL.

Diagnostics are better. Expensive still, but more accessible. Behaviour written off as "naughtiness" can now be attributed to medical causes like ulcers or kissing spines. I think there's a general cultural shift, encouraging owners to go through those investigations before trying to fight through "naughty behaviour," and that's a good thing.

I'd rather be a horse now than one 30 years ago.

 

[Lamehorses]

Well I'm older than you.
I remember 'the good old days'
If a horse misbehaved you hit it harder rather than wonder if there was a reason & were proud of your 'stickability' if they tried to get you off.
If a mare was too lame or uncomfortable to ride she was bred from & a gelding was shot.
I have recently has a horse diagnosed with ulcers & kissing spine. Her symptoms were nothing like I'd experienced in my previous 30+years of horse ownership, but she is such a sweet mare I'm happy the tools now exist to help her.
A fair bit of research is now suggesting kissing spine is hereditary, have we bred the problem in with the broken mares of the past.

 

[Red-1]

I remember the olden days of your youth and before, and I think you have rose tinted specs.

On my livery yard we had bone spavin, heart attack, naughty horses (possibly kissing spines or ulcers, who knows?), lami, colic, ringbone, navicular... I think horses were more readily shot and people moved on to the next. There were certainly less diagnostics done, an X ray was about as far as it went.

That is still an option now, of course, to X ray, treat whet is readily treatable and move on if something is not a good prospect for recovery. The emphasis on being fit to ride seems to have changed. Certainly, in our yard, there weren't the number of retired horses.

 

[SO1]

I expect it was because in my youth it was mainly kids on ponies, there was a lady in the village who had two event horses but like the rest of us she had no access to a school so all training was on grass.

I was a member of pony club and rallies were on grass as were all competitions were on grass. It did mean that in the winter people did do not much due to dark evenings.

I don't think people rode as well as lessons were uncommon and schooling didn't happen much. Perhaps horses had less wear and tear.

Are things like kissing spines and ulcers being more easily diagnosed due horses having more intensive training at a perhaps a younger age. Or are we breeding more athletic sports horses that are more prone to these sorts of ailments due to conformation or temperament.

If it is the way we train or keep our horses should vets be doing more to advise us on prevention.

Advanced medicine is good. My 19 year old pony has 4 filings which hopefully will prevent him from losing teeth. Prior to this I had never heard of horses having fillings. I have had him since 5 and never given him sweet treats and always on low calorie diet.

I also think the choice of foods is much improved. We used to use the Baileys stuff that looked like breadcrumbs.

 

[criso]

I wonder if fewer condition s were managed like they are now. I don't remember as many cases of laminitis as I see now, ponies lived out all year with no extra feeding and did drop over winter.

However most of the ones I did know of didn't make it. They had the first incidence and recovered but there was no muzzling, or starvation paddocks or strip grazing. They went back out to their usual routine and either coped or didn't and were pts.

 

[Gloi]

I think the kissing spines we see is hereditary and like the c6/c7 malformations seen more as we have more warmblood and other horses with tb background than in my youth in the 70s when there were more less highly bred horses about.
I remember ponies with laminitis being shot, sweetitch ponies being treated with creosote and shot if too bad. Hairy ponies with Cushing's and no treatment.

 

[sbloom]

We ARE breeding horses for elasticity, even natives etc can be aimed at more of a sport horse market where elasticity would be valued (and I mean real £). This means stretchier and therefore weaker ligaments and tendons. Modern horses of all kinds have already been bred beyond their natural optimum length/stretchiness of soft tissue compared to wild horses, and ultimately I think we've lost our now, it's gone too far. Add in lots of people riding over the last 30-40 years who haven't come up through formal training routes, horses being cheap to buy and then expensive to keep and diagnostics being streets ahead of genuine treatment, and we have a real issue.

 

[SO1]

This is really interesting as soft tissue injuries seem to be really common now and I presumed it was in part due repetitive strain from intense training as more people compete now especially in dressage.

We ARE breeding horses for elasticity, even natives etc can be aimed at more of a sport horse market where elasticity would be valued (and I mean real £). This means stretchier and therefore weaker ligaments and tendons. Modern horses of all kinds have already been bred beyond their natural optimum length/stretchiness of soft tissue compared to wild horses, and ultimately I think we've lost our now, it's gone too far. Add in lots of people riding over the last 30-40 years who haven't come up through formal training routes, horses being cheap to buy and then expensive to keep and diagnostics being streets ahead of genuine treatment, and we have a real issue.

 

[sbloom]

This is really interesting as soft tissue injuries seem to be really common now and I presumed it was in part due repetitive strain from intense training as more people compete now especially in dressage.

Oh it certainly is, that sudden "broken horse" has usually been nearly broken for a very long time https://conversableeconomist.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-hemingway-law-of-motion-gradually.html, but there is an element of nature too (vs nurture), I'm fairly sure.

 

[SEL]

I'm about your age and have been around horses pretty much all my life.
I can remember girthy, snappy horses - saddle fit or ulcers? No idea because it was put down to bad manners. I'm pretty sure I came across horses with PSSM but we put it down to laziness. Anything with serious enough arthritis to warrant retirement (although daily bute was pretty common) only lasted the summer in the field before having its final meeting with the hunt. We did have horses with bad backs, but they were either 'ridden through it' or shot. I used to get praised for my stickability on naughty horses but these days I'd apply more intelligence and assume something was wrong.

I don't think I believe soft tissue injuries are a new thing either, although the more common use of arenas could be an issue there. I can remember in pony club days the 'it girl' having to retire because her expensive jumping pony started refusing. That got given a general navicular diagnosis and was passed on to another home. Puffy legs in horses were common and I suspect there was a multitude of things going on we couldn't diagnose. Bute, cortaflex or a bullet!

 

[rabatsa]

Navicular and doing a tendon were common big horse problems when I was young. The knacker man was known by all the local horse owners. In my small village nearly every yard had a "problem" horse and I am sure that there were a lot more tubed horses about.

 

[splashgirl45]

well i am pretty old and have been around horses for over 60 years and dont remember lots of problems. most of us didnt have arenas, the small amount of schooling was done on a hack, we maybe competed once a month and hacked to the comp as no one had their own transport. my horse was kept at a yard which had no turnout so he was ridden 6 days and grazed in hand on the 7th so he was out of the stable for a while. he had a 4 week break out on a local farm once a year and sometimes he got beaten up by the shetlands, he was such a wimp... when i moved him to somewhere with turnout every day he was always coming in with injuries, many more than before.. we assumed that ponies got hairy in the winter as they were old, didnt know about cushings and if they got laminitis they were PTS so didnt get a second chance..we didnt know about kissing spine or ulcers , and i never worried about him the way i have worried about others that i had, the more i knew the more i worried.

 

[sbloom]

I totally agree that arena surfaces are an issue, we should work our horses on a variety of surfaces/goings every week, and avoid like the plague deep or bouncy (chopped up car seat foam, why?!!) arenas.

 

[Rowreach]

I’m not sure I’d agree that feed has improved. I think the vast array of compound feeds and chaffs with a host of hidden ingredients and high sugar levels, before you even start with the many millions of supplements out there which people chuck into their horses, and the tendency to feed haylage over good quality hay, has created a huge health and welfare issue for equines.

The art of feeding straights and tailoring a diet to suit each individual horse is long gone I fear, not many of us still feed straights and understand them, and the majority of horses are fed far far more (and the wrong things) than is good for them.

 

[stangs]

I wonder if fewer condition s were managed like they are now. I don't remember as many cases of laminitis as I see now, ponies lived out all year with no extra feeding and did drop over winter.

Saw someone on here saying that one reason for the increase in laminitis was the increase in use of fertiliser.

I wonder if, ironically, certain problems are coming up more (obesity, tendon issues, etc) as we do more unnatural things to make our horses’ lives ‘better’ (rugging, bandaging all the time, etc), no thanks to big corporations. I’ve seen some ads for equestrian products that were absolute bs but almost made me feel bad with how they were going on about “your horse does so much for you… now why not do something for him?”

 

[scats]

When I was a kid (80s and 90s), there weren’t actually that many natives and cobs on our yard. There were a handful that did mountain and moorland classes at county level, but the majority of people had TB crosses. Even the kids ponies tended to be the finer boned, blood types. They all came out of winter a bit ribby and were happy as Larry on spring grass come April/May. We occasionally saw laminitis in round welsh ponies, but it wasn’t a regular thing.
I remember my friend getting a piebald cob and we all thought he was common as anything because we just didn’t have them on the yard back then. You can’t move for them on yards around here now.

I imagine a lot of the ‘naughty’ horses that I was chucked on as a kid had underlying issues such as KS and ulcers. I was the gutsy, lightweight rider who would sit on anything and I dread to think how many of the poor things I clung onto and worked through actually had some level of pain. The back man was a rarity, he’d come out to the odd livery who was happy to splash the cash on such things.

I think equine obesity plays a huge part in soundness aswell. The tendency now towards people wanting natives/native part breds, people not hunting in the winter months or even working their horses that much, but stuffing them with good quality hay and feed and then pulling them out come spring and suddenly starting to work them again, probably without any real thought to building up their fitness carefully. Recipe for disaster really.

 

[The Irish Draft 2022]

There is a lot more fatter horse nowadays which can lead to joints issues laminitis . I think people forget the biggest cause of ulcers are feeds high in sugar it wasn’t common thing to do . It come down horse are spoilt nowadays with ruging feeds supplements.

 

[McGrools]

When i was a kid we never heard of physios, saddle fitters, equine dentists, let alone hygienists!
I do think the average novice horse owner gets ripped off nowadays. I know plenty that spend a fortune on a constant merrygo round of the above services and more and still dont have a rideable horse at the end of it.
I blame too much time spent stood in stables due to livery yard restrictions and not enough desire to actually keep a horse fit.
I agree that lami was very rare back then, now it seems like every other horse is at risk.
A lot of leisure horse owners dont ride often or intensly enough to keep a horse fit.
I agree that the use fertilizers may explain a lot. The grass needs to be poor.

 

[Gloi]

One thing I remember without affection from the early seventies are the saddles everyone had for their ponies. Half panelled, Serge lined,flat seated and mine was really hard to uncomfortable and slippery. I don't think they really fit anything but they were all we had at the time. I remember saving up my Saturday job money and buying a new saddle for £49 about 1974 and what luxury it was to ride in it

 

[Illtellyoulater]

When I was a kid (80s and 90s), there weren’t actually that many natives and cobs on our yard. There were a handful that did mountain and moorland classes at county level, but the majority of people had TB crosses. Even the kids ponies tended to be the finer boned, blood types. They all came out of winter a bit ribby and were happy as Larry on spring grass come April/May. We occasionally saw laminitis in round welsh ponies, but it wasn’t a regular thing.
I remember my friend getting a piebald cob and we all thought he was common as anything because we just didn’t have them on the yard back then. You can’t move for them on yards around here now.

I imagine a lot of the ‘naughty’ horses that I was chucked on as a kid had underlying issues such as KS and ulcers. I was the gutsy, lightweight rider who would sit on anything and I dread to think how many of the poor things I clung onto and worked through actually had some level of pain. The back man was a rarity, he’d come out to the odd livery who was happy to splash the cash on such things.

I think equine obesity plays a huge part in soundness aswell. The tendency now towards people wanting natives/native part breds, people not hunting in the winter months or even working their horses that much, but stuffing them with good quality hay and feed and then pulling them out come spring and suddenly starting to work them again, probably without any real thought to building up their fitness carefully. Recipe for disaster really.

also worming programmes are more sophisticated now. I think the powders we used were more of a purge and we were feeding parasites as well as the ponies

 

[Cloball]

I'm just about old enough to remember the old new Zealand rugs, now modern rugs are definitely more sophisticated but can we add in over rugging? It is very rare I see a naked horse these days regardless of the season. Some of the modern rugs with liners are essentially duvets, I over heat lugging them across the yard in winter! I am sure it is effecting the metabolism/thermoregulation.

 

[SEL]

I'm just about old enough to remember the old new Zealand rugs, now modern rugs are definitely more sophisticated but can we add in over rugging? It is very rare I see a naked horse these days regardless of the season. Some of the modern rugs with liners are essentially duvets, I over heat lugging them across the yard in winter! I am sure it is effecting the metabolism/thermoregulation.

Yup! I'm having a bit of a battle with the native I inherited with my land persuading the lady whose horse is in the paddock with him that he 100% does not need a rug. Not in work, not clipped, obese and growing a lovely woolly coat. Lots of shelter too. I think we are made to feel bad if we haven't got a whole wardrobe for our horses these days.

 

[sbloom]

When i was a kid we never heard of physios, saddle fitters, equine dentists, let alone hygienists!
I do think the average novice horse owner gets ripped off nowadays. I know plenty that spend a fortune on a constant merrygo round of the above services and more and still dont have a rideable horse at the end of it.
I blame too much time spent stood in stables due to livery yard restrictions and not enough desire to actually keep a horse fit.
I agree that lami was very rare back then, now it seems like every other horse is at risk.
A lot of leisure horse owners dont ride often or intensly enough to keep a horse fit.
I agree that the use fertilizers may explain a lot. The grass needs to be poor.

Just because the new paradigm isn't doing everything that horses deserve doesn't mean the old paradigm was better. I resent being implicated in some kind of rip off scandal, and I don't agree that everything was alright when we kept horses fit, and didn't own natives/other types more prone to lammi. We just didn't know, and the more we learn, the more we realise we need to learn. We have a long way to go until we have true joined up thinking, science is helping us to an extent, but it's also doing us a disservice in separating everything out into something "solvable" instead of looking at the horse as a set of systems that need to be in balance. Correct movement, and everything needed to support it, is key.

 

[Widgeon]

I expect it was because in my youth it was mainly kids on ponies, there was a lady in the village who had two event horses but like the rest of us she had no access to a school so all training was on grass.
I was a member of pony club and rallies were on grass as were all competitions were on grass. It did mean that in the winter people did do not much due to dark evenings.
I don't think people rode as well as lessons were uncommon and schooling didn't happen much. Perhaps horses had less wear and tear.

I do wonder if you have a point here, I know a lot of people who primarily ride in an arena and their horses are kept in small paddocks. That's not a criticism as it's often not a choice, but is due to all sorts of factors like availability of land, fear of hacking, difficulties of riding on the (often dangerous) roads - but I guess it means that horses maybe don't have the same base level of fitness from trundling around a big field with their mates, then when they are ridden they're being asked to work collected on a surface. That can't help joints etc can it.

 

[criso]

Although we might not have owned purebred natives, alot of ponies were scruffy heavier types so I don't think less prone to lami. As I said before I came across fewer cases but the ones I did see didn't make it as people didn't try to change keep to manage it.

Re types of horses, alot of Welsh sec A's if you were small enough. Alot more Arab used in breeding to cross with natives and other horses to get a good all rounder or sports pony type. Not so many specific warmblood breeds but lots of 1st generation warmblood equivalents crossing Tbs with heavier types.

With feed no molassed chaffs, in fact no bagged chaff at all, I learnt to ride in the time cutting your own chaff no longer happened but it wasn't sold in bags yet. Sugar beet only came in molassed and if you needed weight you fed that and flaked maize so quite high in sugar and starch. However I would say that feeding straight s meant you knew what you were feeding.

And finer types were clipped and heavily rugged but it meant a smelly jute rug with numerous blankets underneath carefully folded back under a roller to keep them all in place. And no nice rug wash service to take them away and bring them back clean.

 

[McGrools]

Just because the new paradigm isn't doing everything that horses deserve doesn't mean the old paradigm was better. I resent being implicated in some kind of rip off scandal, and I don't agree that everything was alright when we kept horses fit, and didn't own natives/other types more prone to lammi. We just didn't know, and the more we learn, the more we realise we need to learn. We have a long way to go until we have true joined up thinking, science is helping us to an extent, but it's also doing us a disservice in separating everything out into something "solvable" instead of looking at the horse as a set of systems that need to be in balance. Correct movement, and everything needed to support it, is key.

Sorry, I didnt intend to cause offence. what i see is horses not kept in conditions suitable for them to thrive and then a fortune being spent on trying to diagnose their issues. When if they were just turned out to be horses a lot of these issues would naturally alleviate.

 

[sbloom]

Sorry, I didnt intend to cause offence. what i see is horses not kept in conditions suitable for them to thrive and then a fortune being spent on trying to diagnose their issues. When if they were just turned out to be horses a lot of these issues would naturally alleviate.

Thank you. Unfortunately horses challenge us to be our best selves and we don't always step up. We don't have the money, or the time, or the inclination and, as owners, we take paths of least resistance, usually understandably. Until we are all horse-centred we will continue to stick with management styles that cause our horses harm, that often we can't see unless someone else points it out, and then there will always be someone who disagrees. I've been pretty much banned from a small yard for repeatedly saying the horse's feet were part of the issue. Apparently they were paying me to fix the saddle and nothing else.