Naughty 3 year old ID x TB

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Emma68

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Hello

After some advice. I have a 3 year old ID x TB (will be 4 in April 2014) who I have owned since he was 6 months old. I sent him away to be professionally backed in the spring and have ridden him lightly throughout the summer. The professional yard owner did say he wasn't easy!

He is good to ride but difficult on the ground. Generally can be strong to lead and I use a haltie head collar when leading him down to his field. He is also not good about your personal space. I am constantly asking him to get back from the door of the stable. He will step back when given his food but you have to ask repeatedly otherwise.

As he is difficult, I decided to not turn him away this winter and bring him in and stable him every night. I am just lightly hacking or schooling him once or twice a week.

I lunged him this evening and started out well on a 15 meter circle for the first 2 minutes but then makes a run for the entrance of the school and I can't hold onto him. He's just too strong. After 3 attempts, I ended up leading him around the school in hand and then creating more distance between me and him on the lunge line and he was standing when asked to. He had a bridle on.

Do you have any advice on things I could do to avoid him tanking off on lunge line? I don't want this to become a habit and for him to learn that he can get away from me.

Any advice much appreciated.
 
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Sounds like he's got wise to using his strength against you. If he were mine, I'd do one or both of the following:
1. turn him away for winter to chill out and be a young horse. (he's been sent away for professional backing at just turned 3 years old so he's had a lot to cope with mentally in 2013 and time to digest it will be good).

2. use the resulting free time to improve on my education of myself on groundwork and human body language in order to maintain safe personal space and boundaries between me and my horse - maybe have a groundwork session with a good groundwork trainer and their horse, attend some demos, read some books, watch some videos (whatever works for you) so that you have a bigger, better toolkit which will also improve your confidence (I'm not saying you're not confident though). Then when you go and get him out of the field in spring, your manner with him will help make him think twice about trying you out so much and he'll be more amenable.

Good luck with him, bringing on your own young horse from teh age of 6 months must be amazing.
 
Breaking at three is NOT too much to cope with, it is standard practise (until recently, apparently..) and done for good reason: at three horses are still mentally immature and figuring out where they are in life; this is a good time to show them! Waiting until they are older gives them too much time to form opinions as to their own wonderfulness! If he is being piggy on the ground I would suggest using a lunge line over the head from the bridle (through the near bit ring, over the poll and attached to the off side bit ring); I have had 17hh stallions try to p*ss off with me, and be stopped by the former method. Using horses own strength against himself.
 
Thank you Cortez, I did run the lunge line over his head but found that he runs in a straight line out of the circle to the entrance of the school.

It is easier in the lunge pen but our lunge pen is like a lake at the moment with all this rain. I have had a few lessons with him and the instructor has described him as piggy.
 
All you have to do it if he gets away from you is keep your cool, go fetch him and start again where you left off. That way it gains him nothing and he has wasted a huge amount of energy for nothing. And he has learned that you are persistent to he may as well try to do what you are asking of him in the first place.
As for personal space, it requires a specific few sessions, and it requires that you lead him from in front. Decide on the limits of your personal space - with me, it is the length I can reach with outstretched arms.
Have a longer than normal rope on your headcollar (lunge line will do so long as you don't get tangled up) and have several feet doubled up to a length of about 18" between your hands. Walk away from him asking him to follow, but keep an eye behind you (or ask someone else to). As soon as he invades the distance you have decided is your "bubble" of personal space, turn to face him with outstretched arms with the line between your hands facing him. If he is too close step him back - apply backwards pressure to his headcollar, push his chest, step on his toes, whatever takes. By the third or fourth time he will be ready for you and stop outside your space. Do it a few more times and every now and again when he gets pushy - it has never failed with mine, even the big bargy ones.
And as a spin off benefit, if you are leading and he is following respectfully, he has acknowledged you as a leader. And that will make him more settled because he would much rather leave the decision making to you, so long as he can trust you to be fair and consistent.
Don't worry that you can't have him upsides when you are leading him - if he knows about your space but spooks at something he will run round you not into you, and it is important that with a young horse you are leading him, not the other way around..
I know a lot of people won't agree, but trust me it works, I have proved it with many of mine and shown it to a lot of other people who find it really does make a difference.

ETA - lunge line off a bit with an unruly 3 year old?? A very very quick way to ruin his soft uneducated mouth IMO and teach him not to respect what the bit should mean - communication, not strength - for a lifetime of being ridden.
 
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As he is difficult, I decided to not turn him away this winter and bring him in and stable him every night. I am just lightly hacking or schooling him once or twice a week.
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Can't you ride or work him more than this at the moment? It's a big ask to get a young horse to behave when he is being worked so infrequently. Maybe it would be best to turn him away until spring, and then work or hack him 6 days a week when you have more time.

ETA but continue to work on the ground manners in your daily handling in the meantime.
 
There is something I call the "hip lock" which, if you are quick enough, will stop a stampeding buffalo; with the line in a strong enough attachment (see above), when horse goes to pee off, with BOTH hands put line behind back, over your hip and use your weight and back to anchor horse. Even if he goes off in a straight line this will whip him around: if he's REALLY gone for it then you'll just have to let go, but I've never had to do this.
 
Have you done any ground work with him? If not try it
also long line rather than lunge you will have a lot more control with 2 lines plus you will be able to encourage him to soften as if in your hands
Personally I never lunge, always long line :)
 
I have the same breed, and bred myself. He also had issues like your saying. I'm not a believer in parelli but did use a pressure halter and long rope and used some of the space techniques. He is now much easier to handle walks in his own space (not on top of me) and will stop when i stop. We now have a dually halter on just to give me that extra control if needed.
I agree work him don't turn him away, mine was broken in at 3 and has been worked since. He is not at all easy but is better with work, i always lunge with a bit. And make sure you are using side reins or pessoa something to make them work. But i would do lots of ground work and get him to respect you this should then help with the lunging.
But don't ever give up never let him win even if it takes hours, its hard but worth it in the end :-)
 
I had a young warmblood that did this, the minute he managed to get on a straight line he was off, it is a form of nappiness so you do want to nip it in the bud. I put side reins on him so he couldnt get his head up and also kept him on a circle so he wasnt able to pull away from me but having said that he was a 5 year old. My ID who I have had since a weanling was backed at three but i did it myself at home was then turned away and brought back into work at 4, Im not sure I would have been keen to lunge on a 15m circle at 3 rising 4 personally
 
irishdraft said:
I had a young warmblood that did this, the minute he managed to get on a straight line he was off, it is a form of nappiness so you do want to nip it in the bud. I put side reins on him so he couldnt get his head up and also kept him on a circle so he wasnt able to pull away from me but having said that he was a 5 year old. My ID who I have had since a weanling was backed at three but i did it myself at home was then turned away and brought back into work at 4, Im not sure I would have been keen to lunge on a 15m circle at 3 rising 4 personally
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It doesn't need lunging on endless circles though does it, all that needs to be established is manners on the lunge. At 4 it should be able to walk and halt, stay out and behave itself.
 
Cortez said:
Exactamundo!
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That would be a good name for a horse !

At the risk of stones being thrown, I am going to add that I would use whatever tack I thought would work to stop the naughty young man from bogging off until he realised it is far easier to be a nice boy. Which is why I mentioned the chambon earlier on. It does not come into play until the horse activates it, assuming correct fitting of course.

Side reins are useful but if the horse truly wants out of the circle they won't do a great deal unless they are fitted too tight. I have only done a few horses, all of them huge and I have Ted waiting in the wings, but with these big horses I strongly believe in gaffering them early because once they cotton on to how strong they are you are in big trouble.
 
AdorableAlice said:
That would be a good name for a horse !

At the risk of stones being thrown, I am going to add that I would use whatever tack I thought would work to stop the naughty young man from bogging off until he realised it is far easier to be a nice boy. Which is why I mentioned the chambon earlier on. It does not come into play until the horse activates it, assuming correct fitting of course.

Side reins are useful but if the horse truly wants out of the circle they won't do a great deal unless they are fitted too tight. I have only done a few horses, all of them huge and I have Ted waiting in the wings, but with these big horses I strongly believe in gaffering them early because once they cotton on to how strong they are you are in big trouble.
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No stones from me; you speak the truth!
 
Emma68 said:
Hello

After some advice. I have a 3 year old ID x TB (will be 4 in April 2014) who I have owned since he was 6 months old. I sent him away to be professionally backed in the spring and have ridden him lightly throughout the summer. The professional yard owner did say he wasn't easy!

He is good to ride but difficult on the ground. Generally can be strong to lead and I use a haltie head collar when leading him down to his field. He is also not good about your personal space. I am constantly asking him to get back from the door of the stable. He will step back when given his food but you have to ask repeatedly otherwise.

As he is difficult, I decided to not turn him away this winter and bring him in and stable him every night. I am just lightly hacking or schooling him once or twice a week.

I lunged him this evening and started out well on a 15 meter circle for the first 2 minutes but then makes a run for the entrance of the school and I can't hold onto him. He's just too strong. After 3 attempts, I ended up leading him around the school in hand and then creating more distance between me and him on the lunge line and he was standing when asked to. He had a bridle on.

Do you have any advice on things I could do to avoid him tanking off on lunge line? I don't want this to become a habit and for him to learn that he can get away from me.

Any advice much appreciated.
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What a trainer did for a horse bolting on the lunge was putting jumps across the E AND B marker so he was kept in a small area, this was done till he accepted the space and this was gradually moved to slightly bigger.


Sound to me he picked up some bad habits and I think you should get a trainer in to help you
 
I've backed lots of different types and sizes - from opinionated natives to TBs and PBAs through to Percherons - and worked on the ground with the same range of horses who may lack manners too - of all ages, foals, yearlings up to teenagers.

Personal space is a must, but sometimes best dealt with at a distance initially. I like them to be willing to back up (from a visual spin of a rope, not a pressure), move their quarters at a light click, and move their shoulders out of my way too (all not from lots of pressure, although we've often needed to see a point through in the beginning and if a horse starts to threaten your space dangerously then start things at a distance until you can gain respect then move in closer with the same request and release when they oblige). I've sometimes had to put a gate between them and me because they are so adamant they'll knock me down and out of the way if I dare say I'd like them to show respect of my space.

Control of their feet is the way they establish their hierarchy in the herd, so if they can move us either by pushing or pulling at any point then they are in control of us in their eyes.

So we need to get to the point where we're on the same page about who's controlling the shots before moving on to work in a circle in my experience.

Once we can control the quarters especially, we can control their 'lock and run' technique, because as soon as they try to put themselves against us, as long as they have learnt and accepted that pressure (mental and visual, not physical) towards their quarters means to yield away from it, the harder they try to run, the quicker they end up stopping. A bit like a moving turn-about-the-forehand. And that is VERY frustrating! Makes them want to stop doing it, rather than having to have a physical fight. Just like in dreams where the faster you try to run away the closer something gets - makes the running feel worse than futile.

It's not a technique which is particularly easy to learn, especially if you have a sharp/intellingent/strong-willed/strong horse working against you - sometimes they are all 4 temperaments at once and then some! - so definately enlist some help if you can.

Others will have different opinions, but this is what's worked for me and all the horses I've come into contact with so far :-) .


ETA: Once the control of feet is established from halt - and make sure you reward each correct movement with their feet that they give with a brief release of the pressure (mental, not physical) so they understand that's what brings the release - then I progress to driving the shoulders out to take the horse onto a circle and using the quarters to stop them before moving on to trot, although if clever horsie attempts trot or canter before I do then they are quickly shut down by driving pressure (mental, not physical) towards their quarters unrtil they yield. Sometimes that pressure may just be a spin of the rope, sometimes it may be me stomping towards them, sometimes it might be me slapping the end of the line on the ground by spinning it, so it's not always airy-fairy LOL!

I have a suspicion some things like this are used with Parelli, but I wouldn't know as I don't do it! I learnt this method from Richard Maxwell and very useful it is too!
 
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If you finished on a good note by leading and then increasing the distance between and this worked then why not continue and build on this?

It is a leadership issue by the sounds of things so I would be doing some groundwork exercises as Jill suggested and build slowly on the good bits
 
Leviathan said:
What a trainer did for a horse bolting on the lunge was putting jumps across the E AND B marker so he was kept in a small area, this was done till he accepted the space and this was gradually moved to slightly bigger.


Sound to me he picked up some bad habits and I think you should get a trainer in to help you
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I would be very careful about putting any obstacles in the way of horse with 18 metres of rope attached to it, that is likely to get loose.
 
Oh and in addition to my initial post, not all of it needs to be done on one day, maybe the first time aim for respectfully backing up, then the next time recap on that then work on the quarters, the next time approach circling in walk, etc.

Good luck :-)
 
Thanks for all your help and advice. I will definitely do more ground work with him and try long reigning. I remember the professional yard I sent him to did lots of long reining with him prior to backing him and that seemed to work well.

On a positive note, him seems to respond well when leading him in the school and stopping when asked to at a distance from me. I started this when he was a yearling and followed the Robert Maxwell booking on bringing on youngsters religiously!
 
Richard Maxwell is great. I'd definitely teach a hind quarter yield - best tool in your tool kit imo. Had my unbroken youngster cantering loose for the first time today and one look at his quarters and he ground to a halt. An excellent technique for control without force.
 
saddlesore said:
Richard Maxwell is great. I'd definitely teach a hind quarter yield - best tool in your tool kit imo. Had my unbroken youngster cantering loose for the first time today and one look at his quarters and he ground to a halt. An excellent technique for control without force.
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Can you explain please......what it is, how it works? Tx.
 
I have the same age and the same breed . Thankfully he's a good boy but that wasn't just luck! He is bright, althletic and excitable (and becoming the dominated horse of his herd to boot, sigh).but has led a black and white life where he knows exactly what is expected of him. I have always been very firm and hot on manners for him.

I don't think the lunging problems is the real issue, just a symptom of his general lack of manners and respect. I suspect that the issues will slowly escalate.

I'd deal with it in a couple of ways.

Firstly I'd make it easy for him to get it right. He needs to be happy and settled with plenty of time outside with friends to burn off excess energy. Roo spends at least 2hrs a day running around and I'd dread to think what he'd be like with only a couple of hours turnout! Filling him full of feed won't help either, and some feeds may make him hyper (Roo can't eat alfalfa). Obviously make sure all tack fits. And finally, the work needs to be interesting and varied. Remember that lunging is BORING for them.

Then I'd work hard on manners and politeness. Being able to move him in all directions with just a touch, staying out your space AT ALL TIMES, leading politely. If you're not sure how to train that, get some lessons. He needs to learn to be polite. Naffing off on the lunge is not polite but if he can't even lead politely, how can he be expected to be polite doing more complicated things?!

I'd also work him more consistently and tire him out daily. Not necessarily physically, but making sure he's thought hard for the session every time. Roo can gallop round the field for 20min solid and still be buzzing yet 20min gentle hack somewhere he doesn't know has his nose on the ground and his toes dragging, yawning.
 
clip the lunge line onto the bit ring so he cant pull you around. It will not hurt him unless he pulls away. he has a choice of behaving and working nicely or if he tries to pee off then he pulls himself in the mouth. my 16.3 wb did this as a 3 yr old form a cavesson but now gets lunged off the bridle with no cavesson and is good. its not mean cruel or anything else, they have a choice and keeps you safe.
 
scribble said:
clip the lunge line onto the bit ring so he cant pull you around. It will not hurt him unless he pulls away. he has a choice of behaving and working nicely or if he tries to pee off then he pulls himself in the mouth. my 16.3 wb did this as a 3 yr old form a cavesson but now gets lunged off the bridle with no cavesson and is good. its not mean cruel or anything else, they have a choice and keeps you safe.
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On a 3 year old who has little concept of what the bit is for??? Young horses don't work out what might or might not hurt, they react and you could do enormous damage to a sensitive mouth doing that. Might be acceptable for an educated older horse but, please, not a 3 year old.
 
saddlesore said:
yes I'll pm you as I don't want to bore everyone! I'm on my phone atm so I can't but I'll send an explanation when I'm on my computer :-)
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I think we're talking about the same thing? I put a fairly long post on page 2 of this thread about it - good to know I'm not the only 'bore' who writes alot LOL!!!!
 
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