Naughty behaviour during groundwork.

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SadKen

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Been wondering whether to post or not but would like some opinions so gonna suck it up!

As mentioned in the now infamous 'vibes' thread earlier, my new lad really surprised me yesterday when I was doing some ground work. He doesn't have a saddle yet so I haven't ridden him (although I rode him when I went to view, all fine with nothing unexpected given he's only 5). I was planning on doing lots of groundwork anyway as he's not very confident.

We were walking on the lead rein/headcollar in the school as we have done most days since I got him just under 2 weeks ago. I asked him for trot on a leadrein and he jerked his head up and surged forward, barging me out of the way, ears pinned. I told him no, he nipped me (he has been nipping since I got him, previous owner liked to treat him and I don't think she was in charge). I flicked his shoulder with the lead rein, told him no, and he struck out a front leg at me, then did this twice more. My escalated reprimands of prodding him with a finger made him worse.

I insisted on him going backwards by pushing into his space, which he did, grudgingly. Then I let him off the leadrein and sent him away from me. He responded by suddenly surging forward and showing me some ear pinning. After sending him away a bit more, I concluded by taking him back out of the school and he followed me back to the stable on the lead rein, but suddenly was very spooky (he hasn't been like that since I got him, but was a bit spooky with previous owner). I'll admit I was scared. The striking thing is new to me despite a bit of experience!

Of course I accept that he has to settle in as it's a new regime. Feedwise he's on a couple of handfuls of fast fibre with mag ox/linseed/cinnamon/brewer's yeast, grass (he's out 8-4 with a subservient gelding in about 2/3 acre) and hay, which I will now soak. In addition, he's got mud fever. I put baby oil on it yesterday, which he allowed and he was stamping that leg and swishing his tail about 5 mins after. Thinking back, he was swishing in the school too.

I guess I'm looking for some opinions - does anyone think the mud fever is to blame (I do feel guilty for not picking up that he was uncomfortable as he was sound, but would feel more so if he hadn't struck at me). Any suggestions for handling this, did I get it wrong and is lunging at a distance the way forward? And finally, is striking like this very uncommon and should I be looking for outside help now rather than later?
 
Sounds to me like you did the right thing by sending him away, I would continue to do this whenever he shows you any sort of aggressive behaviour, from ear pinning, to striking out with his legs.

Don't show that you are scared as he will pick up on this, stand tall and confidently and make yourself look as big as possible.

It will probably help to get an instructor out to help you nip this in the bud before it gets any worse.

Do you know what age he was when he was gelded?
 
I really wouldn't put baby oil on mud fever. It will make it really sore. That could be the root of the problem I think. You need to bath the scabs in a weak solution of hibiscrub and when they soften, pick off the scabs and spray with something such as terramycyn. This will sting for a few seconds but clears mud fever up pretty quickly as it kills the bacteria that causes it. Baby oil will make mud fever much worse.
 
Thank you for the support :)

Yep, he was just over 2 - realise it's a bit late but I think his owner then was considering breeding from him as he does have a nice pedigree.

I considered rigginess but he's genuinely been fine otherwise. When he was a baby, he suffered malnutrition from being turned out in a big field with a lot of other horses, and because he was so submissive he didn't get any of the hay over the winter. He was bottom of the pile when he arrived at our yard 2 weeks ago and was put in with the OAPs. Might ask YO if he can go back in with them.
 
i think you actually hit the nail on the head with your statement "hes in with a subservient gelding" sounds like he needs to be in with a dominant gelding to put him in his place. if hes spoilt and not been given boundries by the previous owner you need to be careful-always wear a hat and gloves on the ground when you handle him to be safe. good luck just to add baby oil is fine for mud fever as that what pig oil is made with and cob people swear by the stuff
 
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Does not sounds like he is being naughty, more that he does not trust you yet so is taking matters into his own hands. It's common for a new horse (esp at his age) to throw a bit of a tantrum at you to see whether you give a calm and convincing answer that makes sense to him, or whether you back off/ appear scared/ give an unclear response.

I'm afraid it sounds like the latter is happening - saying no, flicking him on the shoulder and prodding him with your finger I'm afraid are not particularly convincing signals for a young horse.

I don't mean you have to beat him! The most effective correction I have found is to use big energy and body language, augmented if necessary with a coiled up lunge line or a flag/plastic bag on a stick. A correction well made with energy, instead of a physical one, seems to go a lot deeper into their small horsey brains. To make that sort of correction you need to be at least 6 feet away (partly for safety and partly because they can't see your BL properly if you are too close).

I would stick to working him loose if you have a safe area that's small enough, or failing that on a lunge line.

Loose, send him away from you and then after only 10-15 seconds get him to change direction and go the other way. Any time he changes direction on his own or stops, you correct him with BL (big energy if needed) plus rope/bag on stick. After only a couple of minutes of doing this consistently, he will get the idea that when you ask, he moves his feet, and you'll notice his body language changing. But don't worry if he acts annoyed in the meantime, he is just verifying that the rules have changed. He'll quickly get the new game. NB this should take maximum 3 or 4 minutes, you are not trying to run him to exhaustion!

On the lunge, similar idea, he has to do what you ask or you correct him, but obv you can't do changes of direction. Use the size of the circle to control the speed, if he is going to fast make the circle small till he slows, then allow him larger again. Stay level with his quarters to drive him forward. From time to time enlarge the circle by stepping directly to his shoulder so his forelegs step outwards away from you - psychologically this is really important - if he doesn't go, flap the rope at him with big energy until he does. He must move away when you ask him to.

I doubt the mud fever has much to do with it, although of course it needs treating. His diet sounds ok, tunring out 24/7 would help if possible (but I hear you about the mud fever) but basically he is trying to find out if you are cool in a crisis - if so he can chill out, if not he will have to be on his guard and look out for himself. Iyswim.

The striking out is not all that uncommon in your situation and is a symptom of his confusion. If I were you I'd get help from someone who trains using body language etc (rather than jsut giving them a bash) but who is down to earth and not fluffy-bunny!!

Kelly Marks, Richard Maxwell and Silversand might be places to start to find someone who trains that way & is near you. You sound like you have some good ideas but HOW you do it is everything. Above all stay safe, wear hat and gloves and stay out of the kick zone (either end!)

PS turnout with a bossy mare will do him no end of good.
 
I wonder if some of its boredom. Even if he wasn't in work before walking & trotting round an arena in hand every day for a fortnight sounds pretty boring, think most horses would soon switch off. I'd either leave it, & gain his respect with everyday handling till you get a saddle, or if he's been worked well on them in the past get him working properly on longlines. Dependent on if it was possible to do so safely, I'd possibly take him for inhand hacks where there's at least something interesting for him to look at out & about.
 
I agree with eatmoremincepies, it sounds like he is testing the boundaries. Lots of lunge and loose schooling should help, how is he in his stable? Does he go back on command or is he a bit pushy? Even if I don't have time with work her I will often get Miss to go back, halt and move her quarters for me just to reiterate my boss position. A lot of Western riders over here use join-up as standard with a new horse, and I have done it with a client horse and Missy. It doesn't take long and I found really helped my working relationship with both (esp the client hose who I was frankly frightened to ride as she was so bolshy).
Lunging is great for obedience too, getting them to work off your voice and it really makes you aware of your body position. I would get a lesson on lunging if you can, as I know from experience that it is really easy to give the wrong signals and end up with an evading and confused horse and frustrated handler! Groundwork is all I have done for most of the year and I have had to be quite inventive so that neither me or Missy lost our minds with boredom. I use poles a lot both on the lunge and as ground exercises, and I even taught Miss how to play with a gymball, although as this required treats prob not the best task for your guy...we are now at the point where she will walk a course of poles and cones etc just following my body language.
Missy had mud fever too when I first bought her. After months of scrubbing and putting on various potions and lotions she was getting more and more p***sed with me fiddling about with her feet so I went the easy route: whacked on some zinc oxide cream and left it. Reapplied every day and within a week it had gone, never to return :)
Good luck, don't stress I don't think you are doing anything wrong, but do get a lunge lesson now and plan out some groundwork sessions that will be fun for both of you. And even if you're not feeling super-confident, take a deep breath and Fake it Til You Make It :D
 
eatmoremincepies said:
Does not sounds like he is being naughty, more that he does not trust you yet so is taking matters into his own hands. It's common for a new horse (esp at his age) to throw a bit of a tantrum at you to see whether you give a calm and convincing answer that makes sense to him, or whether you back off/ appear scared/ give an unclear response.

I'm afraid it sounds like the latter is happening - saying no, flicking him on the shoulder and prodding him with your finger I'm afraid are not particularly convincing signals for a young horse.

I don't mean you have to beat him! The most effective correction I have found is to use big energy and body language, augmented if necessary with a coiled up lunge line or a flag/plastic bag on a stick. A correction well made with energy, instead of a physical one, seems to go a lot deeper into their small horsey brains. To make that sort of correction you need to be at least 6 feet away (partly for safety and partly because they can't see your BL properly if you are too close).

I would stick to working him loose if you have a safe area that's small enough, or failing that on a lunge line.

Loose, send him away from you and then after only 10-15 seconds get him to change direction and go the other way. Any time he changes direction on his own or stops, you correct him with BL (big energy if needed) plus rope/bag on stick. After only a couple of minutes of doing this consistently, he will get the idea that when you ask, he moves his feet, and you'll notice his body language changing. But don't worry if he acts annoyed in the meantime, he is just verifying that the rules have changed. He'll quickly get the new game. NB this should take maximum 3 or 4 minutes, you are not trying to run him to exhaustion!

On the lunge, similar idea, he has to do what you ask or you correct him, but obv you can't do changes of direction. Use the size of the circle to control the speed, if he is going to fast make the circle small till he slows, then allow him larger again. Stay level with his quarters to drive him forward. From time to time enlarge the circle by stepping directly to his shoulder so his forelegs step outwards away from you - psychologically this is really important - if he doesn't go, flap the rope at him with big energy until he does. He must move away when you ask him to.

I doubt the mud fever has much to do with it, although of course it needs treating. His diet sounds ok, tunring out 24/7 would help if possible (but I hear you about the mud fever) but basically he is trying to find out if you are cool in a crisis - if so he can chill out, if not he will have to be on his guard and look out for himself. Iyswim.

The striking out is not all that uncommon in your situation and is a symptom of his confusion. If I were you I'd get help from someone who trains using body language etc (rather than jsut giving them a bash) but who is down to earth and not fluffy-bunny!!

Kelly Marks, Richard Maxwell and Silversand might be places to start to find someone who trains that way & is near you. You sound like you have some good ideas but HOW you do it is everything. Above all stay safe, wear hat and gloves and stay out of the kick zone (either end!)

PS turnout with a bossy mare will do him no end of good.
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brill reply exactly what I would do :)
 
I agree with a lot of that reply, however dont over do the circling/one line lunging as it tends to teach them to motor bike and makes them one sided/sore

In the circs your first described Idve backed him up a few steps by shaking the leadrope, not by invading his space and pushing at him. It only needs to be a couple of steps to make the point. Idve then stood and let him think about that for a moment, if he tried to come into me without being asked by my body language idve backed him again. If he then struck out Idve sent him out on a circle, sending with a pointing finger with the lead hand and using the excess rope if needed for energy to move him on from behind. Id let him do one or two circles then direct my gaze at his hindquarters, if necessary step towards them in an abrupt aggressive manner and yield his hindquarters. I give him a stroke and let him stand and think. Then go back to doing what I was doing before he was naughty.

Some groundwork lessons with an expert are invaluable at this stage - before it gets to where a certain other poster has gotten and you are advised to 'give them a pasting' because trainers run out of answers....

PS make sure you have at least a 12ft leadrope and gloves, not a silly 6ft one so you can stay out of his space and not be in danger zone if he's handy with his legs!
 
Thanks for all the replies, lots of good stuff here. I love Richard Maxwell, I have his books and do use a 12 ft line ;)

This evening I mentioned the situation to the yard owner who is also an AI, and she took him out on the lunge for a while then worked with me to polish my technique. He went beautifully and was very settled when we finished. I thnk boredom and testing the boundaries is the most likely explanation. I will continue to work on the lunge and really put my foot down with handling him this evening as he did try to barge out of his stable but I was much more committed when I corrected him. I have cut him too much slack and have really put my foot down now, whether he likes it or not.

I was surprised last time but won't be again. Loving the bag or flag idea as he isn't at all bothered by a lunge whip! Will keep working on it and save the thread for tips. Thanks all :D
 
IMO, horse is bored with sore legs, made worse by owner. No wonder it's beginning to stand up for itself.

Take the poor soul out for a walk after washing its legs and spraying with some kind of anti-biotic/bacterial/fungal - I like teatree oil personally. Baby-oil has added perfume so it is bound to sting for a prolonged period - I'm not surprised the horse doesn't trust you, op.
 
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