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Wundahorse

Wundahorse

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Has anyone got any tips on stopping my Labrador bitch from chasing the horses.I have always had Collies,and still have two,Lab is my daughters,and have never had any trouble with the Colllies.They are obedient and want to please and never defy me.The Lab has always been the opposite,so a bit of a challenge.I have tried the usual recall work,treats and having her on a lead telling her "leave it",but to no avail.Some of the horses actually chase her and my section D ignores her antics,but a few are scared and i really want to stop this behaviour.She has selective hearing and when on a mission,of whatever kind,she ignores me.Any advice would be much appreciated.
 
If training methods (ie "leave it"/ "No") commands aren't working (although I would suggest working on these) then maybe a good old fashioned telling off???

When you tell her to "leave it" when on a lead, do you MEAN it when you say it and does she respond in any way? Is she rewarded when and if she does put her attention back on you?

We have ad two labs in the past - very leggy, athletic types and I think both (well at least one) chased horses (he actually chased sheep too but that was when they were in our field). To be honest, he got well an truly told off for doing it - ok, so i don't condone this but this was many years ago - he may have got a bit of a slap at the time.

However, this did work and stopped him and he never bothered again once he realised it was truly not acceptable. Personally I guess I'd rather give then a bit of a hiding for it the once than risk them continuing to chase and this resulting in much worse, either for the dog or what it is chasing.
 
ladyt25 said:
If training methods (ie "leave it"/ "No") commands aren't working (although I would suggest working on these) then maybe a good old fashioned telling off???

When you tell her to "leave it" when on a lead, do you MEAN it when you say it and does she respond in any way? Is she rewarded when and if she does put her attention back on you?
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No offense but whether you "mean it" or not, the dog will only know what to do if they have been trained to that command. They may understand your body language and a harsh tone or physical stature but whether you whisper "leave it" or shout it, if the foundations have not been built for the command then the dog will not know what to do.

The problem with chasing in dogs is that it's a self-rewarding act, it produces lots of endorphins which makes the dog feel good. Often they shut themselves off to their other senses and if they're really into the chase, they may not even notice a whole parade of elephants, a bomb dropping, you serving them up a full roast dinner on a gold plate, etc. - they are chasing, and chasing alone.
My Rottie has a huge prey drive and it's something I've been tackling for a while. I'm not sure she'll ever be fully trustworthy but have managed to call her off a rabbit or break her focus on multiple occasions which is a huge improvement.
Firstly you need to stop the dog from being able to practice the behaviour - it's a bit like quitting smoking, you're going to find it a lot harder to quit if you're still having one cigarette a day. You may do well for the 23.75 hours a day that you resist, but that 15 minute fag break you nip out for will bring back the temptation, remind you of how much you enjoy it, etc. every time. The dog needs time to forget how fun the chase is, to reduce the desire to do it again and again. So keep her on a lead, use a longline if you have to, but don't allow her to keep chasing.
Then you want to channel her energy elsewhere. If she loves a chase, transfer that to a ball or a frisbee. You want to make the ball even more rewarding to chase than the horses, so that eventually you can have her next to a horse where she has the opportunity to chase, but she doesn't because the ball is so much more fun.
It'll take time and hard work but it will be a much more reliable method than physical punishment - which only works until the dog becomes less afraid of the punishment than the desire to chase.
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing/
 
krlyr,

I've read through your above post, and another on a previous thread, and I've also skip-read the article which you've offered, but really only to try to understand the direction of the writers argument.

I'm not arguing for the sake of it, but in short, I don't agree with you. I suspect that I'm not alone, as I can assure you that many who have competed at National and International levels, in a variety of disciplines, would also be staggered to hear that you hold Cesar Milan in such low regard. Most of those who earn a living from dogs, and dog work, would accept and embrace his ethics and principles.

Basically, I have never used a reward system with dogs, and never would. There is a reward, and that's my gratitude. Training dogs with toys or food rewards simply encourages a dog to be selfish, and I've seen all so many, rather like your Rott when it prefers rabbits to a ball or titbit, and owners tell me that recall "mostly" works! My argument is that when you issue your dog with an order, then it should comply because it's what YOU want, and not because it suits the animal at the time.

Let me ask you something, assuming that you have children, or if you don't and you can cast your mind back to when you were a child, were you bribed to comply with your parents wishes? I wasn't, I did as I was told, just as my children did.

Wundahorse, the brutal truth is that your dog has no respect for you. You call the dog to you, it ignores you, and takes off after horses. It may well be that you end up with a huge vet's bill, or worse, and all because bribery didn't work.

Alec.
 
No help for the OP but to back up Alec, the two worst behaved dogs I have ever met are labs that have been trained using food.
 
I do partly agree with Alec, you can get a dog to respond to a command and you can earn some respect, I have had to work on getting dogs to stop focusing on horses, 2 being rotts and 1 a very determined shepherd who where to be homed on a livery as guard dogs, both perfect for the job is not to friendly:D but they did focus very much on the horse (my horse) was a very good dummy.
You need a second person with you, and you need to some what flood the dog around the horse (physically tire the dog out) and keep it close to the horse whilst working with it and control well and be very confident in your control, with a reprimand (I usually check) and couple it with a "leave it", I want the dog to associate the reprimand with the command and if firm enough and you will get your result (not every dog) will respond to reward and lets face it in a situation where the dog relapses at all better you have voice control.
If I was using a treat based reward then I would use it after "leave it" but still use a reprimand, but where the drive is so strong and self rewarding as suggested it's very hard to get focus with the usual ball, frisbee suggestion.
I never physically punish other than a check via a check chain and my voice (my voice is then my sole control) easy for me to say im dealing with dogs day in and out with serious behavioural issues, I can tell you it can be done.
I would keep her on the lead at all times for the next 3 months atleast in every situation and up her exercise in other ways and by all means try to introduce a stimulator in whatever form you think will do it, treat/ball etc, work harder on recall, to the point her recall is restricted to longline and you alone (no off lead) and impliment some firmer rules wherever you think her behaviour could be improved.
Never let her off around the horses but always have someone wit you when you are dealing with the horse so they can handle her and use a calmer horse and keep it in a walk/stand it and groom it with her sitting quietly beside under control. The more she sees those horses in a calmer manor and her under control (halti and good training lead the better) and absoloutely don't be affraid to be firm, a dangerous behaviour is not a good scenario and the longer it goes o the worse it will get.
At present how are you dealing with it?
 
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krlyr said:
No offense but whether you "mean it" or not, the dog will only know what to do if they have been trained to that command. They may understand your body language and a harsh tone or physical stature but whether you whisper "leave it" or shout it, if the foundations have not been built for the command then the dog will not know what to do.

The problem with chasing in dogs is that it's a self-rewarding act, it produces lots of endorphins which makes the dog feel good. Often they shut themselves off to their other senses and if they're really into the chase, they may not even notice a whole parade of elephants, a bomb dropping, you serving them up a full roast dinner on a gold plate, etc. - they are chasing, and chasing alone.
My Rottie has a huge prey drive and it's something I've been tackling for a while. I'm not sure she'll ever be fully trustworthy but have managed to call her off a rabbit or break her focus on multiple occasions which is a huge improvement.
Firstly you need to stop the dog from being able to practice the behaviour - it's a bit like quitting smoking, you're going to find it a lot harder to quit if you're still having one cigarette a day. You may do well for the 23.75 hours a day that you resist, but that 15 minute fag break you nip out for will bring back the temptation, remind you of how much you enjoy it, etc. every time. The dog needs time to forget how fun the chase is, to reduce the desire to do it again and again. So keep her on a lead, use a longline if you have to, but don't allow her to keep chasing.
Then you want to channel her energy elsewhere. If she loves a chase, transfer that to a ball or a frisbee. You want to make the ball even more rewarding to chase than the horses, so that eventually you can have her next to a horse where she has the opportunity to chase, but she doesn't because the ball is so much more fun.
It'll take time and hard work but it will be a much more reliable method than physical punishment - which only works until the dog becomes less afraid of the punishment than the desire to chase.
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing/
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This is basicly very well explained! i train both my dogs in schutzhund with a top trainer in the sport and basicly now the 'habit is there and the endorphins are flowing you either have to redirect it onto a ball etc but to do this you will have to keep her on a long line, find a good trainer, and if it is getting to the point of her possibly getting hurt or the( horses) then i would highly recommend getting a good dog trainer to help using an electric collar. It is a long process as you have to desecertize them to the collar otherwise they learn when its not on they can do what they like. I had a problem with my dobe chasing deer but with 3 months of her wesring it and then finaly 'using it' (with my trainer at the helm i might add)i now dont have any worries when out and about. good luck
 
Alec Swan said:
krlyr,

I've read through your above post, and another on a previous thread, and I've also skip-read the article which you've offered, but really only to try to understand the direction of the writers argument.

I'm not arguing for the sake of it, but in short, I don't agree with you. I suspect that I'm not alone, as I can assure you that many who have competed at National and International levels, in a variety of disciplines, would also be staggered to hear that you hold Cesar Milan in such low regard. Most of those who earn a living from dogs, and dog work, would accept and embrace his ethics and principles.

Basically, I have never used a reward system with dogs, and never would. There is a reward, and that's my gratitude. Training dogs with toys or food rewards simply encourages a dog to be selfish, and I've seen all so many, rather like your Rott when it prefers rabbits to a ball or titbit, and owners tell me that recall "mostly" works! My argument is that when you issue your dog with an order, then it should comply because it's what YOU want, and not because it suits the animal at the time.

Let me ask you something, assuming that you have children, or if you don't and you can cast your mind back to when you were a child, were you bribed to comply with your parents wishes? I wasn't, I did as I was told, just as my children did.

Wundahorse, the brutal truth is that your dog has no respect for you. You call the dog to you, it ignores you, and takes off after horses. It may well be that you end up with a huge vet's bill, or worse, and all because bribery didn't work.

Alec.
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Actually you will find many professionals share my feelings for Cesar Milan - vets, behaviourists, trainers, breeders, rescue organisations, etc. The APBC and APDT are two large organisation bodies of trainers and behaviourists who will not allow their members to use his type of methods on dogs.
It is not about bribery but about having a dog behave because it wants to behave. As a child, I did things because I wanted to - for the recognition from my parents, teachers, peers, or because I enjoyed it (and a reward for a dog does not have to be a treat or a toy - attention/"gratitude" can equally be rewarding for many dogs). My younger brother was raised quite differently, on the fear of punishment from my father. Yes, it was very effective - at times, but only when the fear of punishment was greater than the desire to misbehave. If my father wasn't home, where was the incentive to behave? Yes, he might get 'found out' later but a child tends not to think of the consequences for their actions in such a timeframe, and neither do dogs. As it turns out, I turned out to be the child who goes out of her way to make my mother's birthday presents, Mother's day, etc. special because I like to see er happy - and do not have anything to do with my father once I realised what a manipulative bully he really was. My younger brother is the one with no respect and no shame in his behaviour because now he is an adult that cannot be shouted or smacked, he has no consequence for them.

I do not want my dogs to behave in a certain way because they are afraid they will get shouted at, hit, or even an electric shock if they do not. I want them to stay with me on walks because I'm more fun than the rabbit over there, because they enjoy focussing on me. I think that it creates a much sturdier foundation than training with aversives and intimidation. Yes, sometimes it is more time consuming but I would rather take the time than use unnecessary physical force on an innocent animal that cannot understand the reasoning behind it - all they know is that chasing a rabbit results in pain, they do not understand that it is for their safety.

I have not been on here very long and not involved enough in the horse world to know what is considered the norm, but would you be comfortable shocking your horses with an electric collar or some kind of electrical prod? Forcing them onto their backs to "submit", kicking them violently in the ribs to antagonise bad behaviour so you could then use physical force again to "correct" it? Cesar Millan uses very physical, unnecessary force on animals than are half his size or less. He is not a dog behaviourist, he is not a dog whisper, he is a well-presented bully, and the dogs' body language on his shows just screams out at how uncomfortable they are.
 
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krlyr said:
Actually you will find many professionals share my feelings for Cesar Milan - vets, behaviourists, trainers, breeders, rescue organisations, etc. The APBC and APDT are two large organisation bodies of trainers and behaviourists who will not allow their members to use his type of methods on dogs.
It is not about bribery but about having a dog behave because it wants to behave. As a child, I did things because I wanted to - for the recognition from my parents, teachers, peers, or because I enjoyed it (and a reward for a dog does not have to be a treat or a toy - attention/"gratitude" can equally be rewarding for many dogs). My younger brother was raised quite differently, on the fear of punishment from my father. Yes, it was very effective - at times, but only when the fear of punishment was greater than the desire to misbehave. If my father wasn't home, where was the incentive to behave? Yes, he might get 'found out' later but a child tends not to think of the consequences for their actions in such a timeframe, and neither do dogs. As it turns out, I turned out to be the child who goes out of her way to make my mother's birthday presents, Mother's day, etc. special because I like to see er happy - and do not have anything to do with my father once I realised what a manipulative bully he really was. My younger brother is the one with no respect and no shame in his behaviour because now he is an adult that cannot be shouted or smacked, he has no consequence for them.

I do not want my dogs to behave in a certain way because they are afraid they will get shouted at, hit, or even an electric shock if they do not. I want them to stay with me on walks because I'm more fun than the rabbit over there, because they enjoy focussing on me. I think that it creates a much sturdier foundation than training with aversives and intimidation. Yes, sometimes it is more time consuming but I would rather take the time than use unnecessary physical force on an innocent animal that cannot understand the reasoning behind it - all they know is that chasing a rabbit results in pain, they do not understand that it is for their safety.

I have not been on here very long and not involved enough in the horse world to know what is considered the norm, but would you be comfortable shocking your horses with an electric collar or some kind of electrical prod? Forcing them onto their backs to "submit", kicking them violently in the ribs to antagonise bad behaviour so you could then use physical force again to "correct" it? Cesar Millan uses very physical, unnecessary force on animals than are half his size or less. He is not a dog behaviourist, he is not a dog whisper, he is a well-presented bully, and the dogs' body language on his shows just screams out at how uncomfortable they are.
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Excellent post Krlyr. Cesar Milan is TV entertainer with a huge marketing machine behind him. He has an appauling lack of understanding of dog body language and uses methods that have been scientifically proven to be wrong. I get so frustrated when people say that by using treats you are bribing the dog and you must make sure he knows you are the boss. My dogs are all stock safe, including my young dog, they have boundaries, and they understand the boundaries I have set because I have trained them using positive methods, not because I have bullied them into doing what I want.

OP, I would go back to basics, I have taught my young dog to ignore the horses in the fields using a harness and longline, allowing him to look at a distance, waiting until he turns and looks at me, then rewarding him for looking at me, gradually getting closer to the horses, but only when he is calm and focused on me. It will take a while, but at the end of it you will have a dog who understands what is required of her and her default behaviour will be to ignore the horses and come back to you because she wants to. If you do don't want to use food, use a toy/ball as the reward, find what 'floats her boat' and use it.
 
agsam27 said:
....... you either have to redirect it onto a ball etc but to do this you will have to keep her on a long line, ....... then i would highly recommend getting a good dog trainer to help using an electric collar.
So when we fail to instil discipline in a dog with a ball, or treats, then we fry the bloody thing with an EC. Really? You obviously wont agree with me, but I'd recommend the basic grounding of discipline!!
It is a long process as you have to desecertize them to the collar otherwise they learn when its not on they can do what they like. Thank you very much for making my point. If the dog learns how to evade the collar or learns when the collar's on or off, then what was the point of it, and what have you achieved ? Would it not be better, to discipline the dog, in the first place, before we rely upon dubious aids?

..............
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I keep an open mind and am more that happy to learn and to be wrong, but, I've never used an electric collar, and I never will.

The very best trainers who I've met, have all had a bond with their dog, a bond which they managed without the use of electric shocks. ;)

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
I keep an open mind and am more that happy to learn and to be wrong, but, I've never used an electric collar, and I never will.

The very best trainers who I've met, have all had a bond with their dog, a bond which they managed without the use of electric shocks. ;)

Alec.
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I am surprised that you came to Cesar Millan's defence then. Not only have there been many reports of him "priming" dogs on his TV show by using electric collars off air and has used them visibly in some of his episodes too, but he has been linked to the training method that has been dubbed "E-Touch" (perhaps trying to benefit from the good reputation of T-Touch?).http://www.k9lifeline.net/id19.html

Don't get me wrong, he has the basics right in a lot of cases, I agree with his emphasis on ensuring a dog is adequately exercised, staying calm can really help a reactive/fearful dog, and so on but his fondness of blaming everything on dominance and using physical corrections just does not do it for me, when many of the dogs are quite obvious in their body language and displaying their fears, their discomfort etc.
 
krlyr said:
.......

.. but his fondness of blaming everything on dominance and using physical corrections just does not do it for me, when many of the dogs are quite obvious in their body language and displaying their fears, their discomfort etc.
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Dogs will react to different situations and in different ways, obviously. Those which are accustomed to having their own way, and in reality pleasing themselves what they do, will obviously be uncomfortable with being forced into a less than dominant role. When they come to terms with it, and when they work out for themselves that life does have some benefits, then their demeanour will change.

You have to remember, and it's important, that Milan's programmes show him breaking his way into, very often, serious hard cases who've been allowed to live their lives out side of or at the head of, a pack. If we accept that dogs are pack animals, then we also have to accept that someone has to be the leader. If that's to be the human, then it takes some skill to usurp a dominant, spoiled and opinionated dog, and place him further down the pecking order. Have you ever taken over such a dog? Have you ever known anyone else who has? Did they distract the dog with a ball, or offer it treats? Did they try to bribe their way into the dog's affection? Did it work?

If those who acquire so many of these difficult and known aggressive dogs, as puppies, were able to instil discipline into them, and from an early age, then Milan wouldn't have had a TV show! Neither Milan or anyone else who agrees with the principle of leadership would use his displayed systems on a puppy. Properly brought up, and gently disciplined from birth, puppies grow up understanding their place in the system.

Badly behaved adult dogs, when they can't have their own way will often sulk. Eventually the lowered and submissive head will rise, when the dog accepts its place. That is a compliant, happy and obedient dog, in my view.

The difference between our two stances, I suspect, is that I insist upon compliance, and you request it. There will never be agreement.

Alec.
 
Cesar Milan does indeed have some methods of training I personally do not agree with just the same as I agree a one method of training does not suit all, I think brandying the same old ball/frizbee/treat is not solving behavioural problems, some dogs are not at all toy driven and some dogs indeed lack discipline and that not have to be sought with violence/e collars or endless amounts of food. I strongly believe in structure and a good bond with your dog, I have a good bond with my dogs, all rejects all different breeds, all came with their own behavioural issues some very dangerous, I did not have to resort to physical violence/e collar/or the use of food funnily enough.
I did find it infuriating that some people will only use one method of training full stop to the point the owner and dogs will be excluded from a training class because the dog simply will not shape in any way or form using these methods or how a behaviourist can charge alot of money and use the same techniques on a home visit leaving the dog and owner well and truely stranded literally after so many sessions being able to not return when they run out of answers and the dog is not responding. On the other hand we as a rescue are the ones that end up with the dog when the owner becomes so frustrated that the dog is becoming even more unmaneagable, we cannot wash our hands so easily.
I think also to use comparisons of more than bidable pet dogs to another in regard to their dogs behaviour does not help the situation (that is in general not regards to this post), esp where one method has been used and possibly worked for a dog with no where near the same level of issues/drive which is where alot of opinion seems to derive from in regard to solving a problem with another dog/advice given.
I think alot of people do alot of reading then pass it off as experience and in regard to animals behaviour that is less than ideal and somewhat damaging.
Whilst I don't agree with all CM methods, I do with he deals with some down right idiots and his exercise and boundaries make very clear sense. I am confused as to why we are not seeing a flood of behaviourists setting up similar programmes with their methods and showing people how dogs can be worked with using these methods, all we have is maybe 2 other trainers dealing with what we see as "very very basic" problems that anyone with half a brain could understand why the dog became this way.
I personally also think comparing dogs to children is where we are seeing more behavioural problems we have ever seen before, dogs are not humans/children, this and a lack of understanding as to the dogs needs and then quite clearly not being met.
I also met someone who uses the t touch methods of training and have to say their dog was very poorly behaved which shocked me, even to the point she used the multi lead method to stop pulling and yet the dog pulled like a train:confused: she also went through more than a normal person from none training background how I was sure she could return the dog if any problems occured (again baffled) as she was basically saying t touch could over come everything, yet she was rhyming off reason to return the dog, not once did she express belief in her own methods and said "I can over come all problems" using my methods (which did not give me much hope):confused: now im sure it does work in some instances, but this baffled me:)
In regard to horses could the use a of whip and electric fencing be seen as negative, is there anyway a horse could be trained to remain in a field with the use of treats? and not giving them a shock?
I have never used a shock collar whilst training but have seen them used by a trainer and used correctly and under experienced guidance I do not have a problem esp where the alternatives are rehome or put to sleep, Im sure alot of people on this forum have used the method and have not looked back, I know the sessions I sat in on, the dogs never reverted back to the behaviours they displayed which was stock worrying and recall (high prey drive) where they had exhausted all avenues and spend alot of money on trainers and where the alternative which worried them most was a bullet/being hit by a car, or mass injury there is going to be discomfort in all lessons.
I use many a method in training on other peoples dogs, be it firmer handling (not violent punishment) positive rewards/negative reinforcer (again not violence) i am not sure an owner would be happy with me kicking/punching their dog infront of them;) I also don't brandy the "bribing" in regard to food, I would more so like people to realise it does not and will not always work and other methods have to be adapted.
Of course we would also love endless time to train and for the people we are trying to help to put endless time in (but they cannot/will not) simple.
Anyways that is all. Op take the advice you think will help or seek a good trainer who has experience and dealings with this behaviour to give you a better insight but in the mean time definately do not let him off around the horses.
 
Alec - I know someone who has taken such a dog on, and has turned its behaviour around using reward-based training. The mistake many people who lack experience is using this method make is to think that it only includes cooing over the dog and throwing food at it. It does not. Used correctly, it is a powerful training tool, and only a fool would dismiss it out of hand.

As a trainer, I have limited time for the techniques of Mr Milan.
 
Alec and I have clashed heads on this and other issues a number of times re electric collars, food training, ball training etc.
The principle of and EC is not to shock the dog when it does something wrong, it is meant to be used as an attention-grabber, BEFORE the dog has started to chase.
The great thing, and equally the bad thing about ECs depending on what you want to use them for, is that the dog does not equate it with the handler, the dog thinks the stimulation or the correction comes from God.

I also train my dog in IPO. I am not a trainer.

Food training and ball training and clicker training is good for a lot of dogs and for puppies and for foundation training and your average pet dog in terms of recall and reward. I will still use it for many things.

However I now have an almost 18 month old, very intelligent, very headstrong dog, who has been given CHOICES. I gave him a choice every time, go and do that fun thing or have some food. Go and do that fun thing or play with a ball. I have given him too many choices and not enough consequences. And I wish to God I had trained him in a way that suited the individual dog, which should have been, you will NOT go and do that fun thing, you will stay right here.
I am not talking about battering the head off the dog, I am talking about showing the dog that there is a consequence for displaying behaviour that is undesirable.

'Ignore the bad, reward the good' allows the intelligent, free-thinking dog to self-reward.

Don't anyone give me links and don't give me blanket statements about something that absolutely does not relate to my dog.
And please don't anyone tell me that I wasn't doing it right. I just didn't do it right for this individual dog.

We are heading for a storm of badly behaved, uncontrollable, potentially dangerous to themselves and other dogs, dogs, because of a PR campaign equally as slick as Cesar Milan (I am sure all-positive trainers like to make money too) who are telling people with lovely flowery language that any other way to theirs is 'cruel' or 'abusive'.
 
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CAYLA said:
Agree strongly^^^^^^ with CC
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We are indeed headed for a storm, but some can nicely wash their hands of the issues once money has changed hands and the txt book/instruction manual failed. It's not them who then have to house the dog or help find it new beginnings or even actually deal with the original problem.
I certainly wont get rich doing what I do;)
 
Agree with CC's post totally. Positive reward for dogs is not a new thing and has its place in the training of every dog, they do right, they are rewarded for doing right, thats simple honest to god common sense. The form of reward needed changes from dog to dog. What I dont agree with is entirely positive based reward training, you praise a dog for doing right only, the dog will never learn when its done wrong if the only time you react to it is when its done right, they need to be as clear on 'that was wrong' as they are on 'that was right' and you dont acheive that adequately by ignoring the bad behaviour. I also think its confusing and frustrating for a dog to constantly be trying to work out for themselves what it is that you want from them, dogs like boundries, they like to know where they are and they are happier and more secure to know fully what is and isnt expected of them.
 
Vizslak said:
.......

I also think its confusing and frustrating for a dog to constantly be trying to work out for themselves what it is that you want from them, dogs like boundries, they like to know where they are and they are happier and more secure to know fully what is and isnt expected of them.
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Words of wisdom.

Alec.
 
Some excellent posts latterly. I do not have a problem with reward training, it works for many dogs and I use it, I will also use more "old fashioned" methods when I make sure a dog knows that when I tell it to do something I mean it.
No two dogs are the same, and in my opinion you have to look at what suits your dog not what the current fad is. I have a friend who has trained a dog to a high working trials qualification, despite him being a really different dog. She has used the full range of training methods from positive reward training to electric collar. Her lad is a joy to watch when he is working and he absolutely adores his owner.
Krlyr, I notice you say you have DA problems with your GSD and chase issues with your rottie, presumably you haven't totally been able to cure these with just positive reinforcement, maybe a firmer approach might just have worked although of course nothing is guaranteed.
 
I don't have dog aggression issues with my GSD - he has fear-based reactivity and I strongly believe that a firm approach would not help things long-term. He has actually made huge improvements with positive reinforcement, previously he would react to dogs that were mere dots on the horizon and throw himself into huge fits, yet we now have moved somewhere where we pass many dogs on a daily basis and generally can pass with no incident. Occasionally he may go over threshold, e.g. when directly approached, but if he stays within his comfort zone he is happy enough. I actually had a terrier run over to us in a country park not too long ago (interestingly with his owner taking a very firm stance with lots of shouting and intimidating body language, but was this dog paying any attention, no way - why run back to the scary man waving his arms when you're fast enough to outrun him?) and my dog actually threw himself at my feet and cried. He's a big wuss who completely shut down out of fear and I don't think punishing his fear will get us anywhere.
I could have taken a firmer approach and punished his behaviour when he reacted but I don't see what this would achieve in terms of changing his outlook towards other dogs. If anything, he would gain more negative associations - if someone's irrational phobia of spiders was "treated" by a punch in the arm every time they screamed, I'm sure the fear would soon become a rational one, not just a fear of the spider but the association of spider and inevitable physical violence. If his fear of my punishment outweighed his fear of the dogs, I may be fine, but we could eventually reach a point where the fear of the dogs was greater and his reaction could be worse than ever due to the constant surpression in the past.
I have good reason to believe that he was taught with a firmer hand in previous homes, including being sent on a residential training course (usually use these kinds of methods), yet he was still enough trouble that he was rehomed 3 times prior to me adopting him. I think I have achieved far more with him in the time I've owned him, with positive methods, than anyone had in the past. His recall has improved immensely simply by making it rewarding for him to come back - he got high value food, or I'd continue the game of ball, or even just a bit of fuss. I could still teach him a consequence for bad behaviour, not by physical punishment but, for example, not continuing to play with him if he did not return to me. There was a negative consequence for him without getting aggressive or violent towards him, by denying him something he wanted.
The Rottie is a big project but she was allowed to chase animals for several years before she came into my care so it's a case of having to undo a lot of learnt behaviour. Recent behaviour has led to vet checks and the discovery she may be hypothyroid anyway, so I haven't particularly done much intensive training with her lately, though she showed huge improvement when I was working on it on a daily basis.

Maybe "positive reinforcement training" is the wrong term or is misinterpreted or misused. Some people get the impression that these dogs are in control, refusing to behave unless they have a food or toy bribe, that they're allowed to run amok getting away with everything. They're not, at least, mine certainly are, but I prefer that rules are taught by allowing the dog to discover the right thing and rewarding that, rather than waiting for the dog to do the wrong thing and punishing them. They do not constantly require treats, they will happily perform many commands without any kind of reward at all but usually I will at least give a verbal approval which they find rewarding enough.
This is a fab article - http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/who-is-a-positive-dog-trainer-not-me/
I just feel that, as a society that is becoming more and more against physical punishment to children (and adults), it is a shame that it is still so accepted by many to do to animals.
 
Speaking on behalf of wundahorse,her computer is down and she cannot reply to any suggestions until connectivity is restored.
 
Thanks folks,i'm back on line now and can access all the posts.I have been working with the Lab on the lead,reinforcing the "leave it" command when we are around the horses.I never give her treats as i agree this can be self rewarding and counter productive,or at least it is with her.I give positive reinforcement for desireable behaviours,usually a "good girl" and a pat.For her undesireable behaviours she gets a assertive "no,leave it",and i ask her to submit by sitting or laying down.Unlike the Collies she does have a short attention span which somewhat affects the efficacy of the training.I then try to gain her attention and ask her to focus on me.I tend to use a lead while in the paddocks,particularly with certain of the horses who are afraid of dogs.Some of the horses actally chase her,which i feel allows her to appreciate the hazards and damage they can inflict on a dog.She is however,very aware of which horse is dangerous,and which ones are vulnerable through fear,which i guess is an insinctive behaviour,but one which needs total control nonetheless.
My experiences has always been with Collies who if well trained are very biddable dogs who are very tuned to receiving commands,and who actively want to please.They require little in the way of rewards such as treats and are more than happy with praise alone.The Lab has been a culture shock,but she is essentially a lovely dog.She is naturally playful and quite resourceful when it comes to food and pleasurable gains,being known to steal from whatever untended culinary delights are available.She is rising 5 and i have noticed some improvement but nowhere near as fast as i would like.It is a continuous process.
I have looked at the arguments for and against C.M,and feel that as some people have pointed out,there is no universal method,and it is important to probably use an eclectic approach.I have utilised C.M's methods with my younger Collie to good effect when having nursed him through a period of illness in which he nearly died he became fearful of other dogs which manifested in fear aggression.Realising he was taking responsibility for me,and thus refusing to allow other dogs near me,i took this responsibility back from him and then had a much more balanced dog who was able to tolerate other canines,as long as they don't harass him.Being naturally obedient he was very willing to submit to this new order.
Labradors do not seem to have the same ethic and i think it is this challenge which has thwarted me.The Lab is also the one who barks at strangers and is vigilant about protecting her territory,whereas the Collies love greeting all and sundry,friend or potential foe.The Lab will chase rabbits and squirells while the Collies ingnore these creatures passing by their noses.I think it is when she is bored and distracted that she looks around for trouble,I have days when she is good,and others when i despair.She does seem to understand the "stay" command,which i reinforce when around the horses.It maybe that it will take a horse to kick her before she understands the dangers of messing with them.I am not sure about the e collars but can see how they can be a negative reinforcer.It's not as if the dogs have never had the odd shock,which has happened to them all when they have come into contact with the electric fencing.On these occassions i have noticed how quickly they link a situation with the shock and this subdues them,and they remember this in future situations which indicates a learning process has occured where they identify a specific reaction or trigger which they actively avoid in future scenarios.
Thank you all again for your help and i will be applying some techniques.
 
I have a young rescue Boxer that used to chase the horses when she first arrived. She'd hurtle into the field and bark at them and circle/chase whenever she got the chance. I bought one of these spray collars that sprays water/mist in their face and operates from 300m away. I found it was enough to distract her from what she was doing so I could get her attention and lure/call her away with a frisbee. I put the collar on every time she went outside and fairly quickly she didn't bother any more - whether this was the collar, her getting used to being around horses or better recall/bond I don't know. She still has lapses sometimes if they are walking past her, but doesn't go near them in their field.
 
As i said this method would be the LAST resort! i.e. when animals could be in danger. Positive training is always prefered, making the dog WANT to be with you rather than off chasing things is the key. Also you cannot put the training of a horse, dog and child together in the same boat at all and you would be a fool to do so (maybe that is why so many dog owners have badly behaved pets?) horses are nervy flight creatures, children can talk and sometimes understand, dogs are naturally 'selfish' and pack orientated and without correct leadership will take over. I see alot of 'last chance' dogs at my training club and have seen most turn the corner, but only the ones whos owners take control and become stronger more 'black & white' with the dogs.
 
I love ceasar millan. I dont think you need to use his methods so much on an average dog but for the special cases he has he gets the results so must be doing something right!!
 
vieshot said:
I love ceasar millan. I dont think you need to use his methods so much on an average dog but for the special cases he has he gets the results so must be doing something right!!
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I think you hit the nail on the head, the average dog and the type most deal with;) do not need some of those methods, some of the cases he deals with people will very rarely see let alone deal with.:)
I don't agree with all methods as I suggested but some I certainly see why he uses such methods.
 
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