Naughty with farrier-advice

[I_A_P]

Just wondered if anyone has any ideas. Ai have had my boy for over 3 years now. He has always been a bit tricky with the farrier. Generally it is when it is with his front feet and he either goes to pull them down or goes up in front and is generally a bit difficult. Mup until last year he was given sedalin which was not always fail safe especially when farrier is early/late and takes time to act.

Last year he had a problem as was feeling the hard ground and had to have wedges, gel pads in for a while until he was better. For this we had him sedated by the vet as he said he needed to make sure he was kept still to do this (fine). Anyway he is now 100% on his feet and pads etc are all off. His feet look much better now as well as do not look so flat.

Problem I have is our farrier is now saying he won't do I'm unless sedated but it's costing me £150 at least every 5 weeks to get his feet done. Does anyone have any alternatives to getting vets to sedate them or any idea of how I could make him a bit easier?

 

[Cocorules]

Can only suggest a lot of practice at holding legs in the way the farrier will ie twice a day. It may take time to build up to that so start the way you would when teaching a youngster that had never had its feet touched. Make sure he is standing squarely too. If you think there is a physical cause get the vet to check over. If you think the farrier isn't helping change farrier.

 

[I_A_P]

Thanks - I have beenfiddling around with his feet a bit more and maybe will just try tapping around on his front feet especially.

I have always wondered if it is a pain related thing and then he had this concussion injury last year through one foot due to basically his feet getting flat and his sole was prolapsed! I now wonder if he has always been a bit tender there although never had other lameness etc. My farrier has never been able to understand why he is like how he is.

He's 100% sound and he has his back etc done regularly so don't think it can be a physical thing. Just costing a fortune!

 

[Littlelegs]

Is there any chance you could try some bute/ danilon next time he's done to rule out pain? Getting mine used to having random strangers (eg other Liverys, friends etc) holding her legs up like farrier would made a huge improvement, was just a trust issue for her.

 

[Wagtail]

There will be a reason for his reaction. I would say it is pain. My horse was exactly like this for two years before being diagnosed with kissing spine. Since the op, he is loads better. Before the op I had to trickle feed him pony nuts throughout the whole shoeing procedure. I tried twitching and sedalin. Both worked to a certain degree, but the trickle feeding worked best.

 

[I_A_P]

Thanks - have thought about trying him on danilon but the farrier is saying he wont shoe him unless he is sedated so am a little bit stuck.

Regarding pain - this is what i have always thought too but he is fine in every other way. When he had the concussion injury last year due to him having thin soles i wondered if he has always been feeling the ground a bit and therefore sensitive with having his feet done.

Did your horse show any other signs of being in dicomfort other than being difficult with the farrier ?

I am going to try and handle him twice a day or as much as i can from now on to see if there is any improvement and get other people to have a go as well.
He is generally very easy to do but doesnt really like being groomed for a long epriod of time and can be difficult first thing in morning changing his rugs as he just wants to get outside.

 

[I_A_P]

Also he has his back etc checked regularly and if anything he has less 'issues' every time she comes out to see him.

 

[Wagtail]

Did your horse show any other signs of being in dicomfort other than being difficult with the farrier ?

My horse was a saint to ride and the vet, physio and chiro all said his back was nice and strong with no sore areas. However, when I first got him I realised he did not like moving after I had girthed up his saddle. He showed no objection to me actually girthing it up but when he was led away afterwards he would freak. I just thought he was girthy and so rode him with a much looser girth and his issues disappeared. That was until one day I realised the girth was dangerously loose and so I tightened it from the saddle. I went to move him forwards and he just exploded! Bucked leapt and reared before finally stopping. I jumped off him and he was trembling from head to foot. That was when I realised something was seriously wrong. Even then, my vet insisted his back was fine but I urged her to xray and she found the worst case of KS she had ever seen.

With your boy, I would suspect he has very sensitive feet and probably finds the whole shoeing process very painful. Horses never behave like this without reason. Of course it may be MEMORY of pain, though usually you would see a gradual improvement in behaviour if this was the case.

 

[I_A_P]

Thanks Wagtail - its hard to know if he is better as he has been sedated every time since the injury. I will have to have a serious chat with him I think - obviously most important i do not want him in pain but also i cannot afford to be paying just that amount every 5 weeks just to get him shod.

I know he has got typical tb flat feet but just hope they are as good as they can be!

 

[claribella]

Is there any possiblity he could just go barefoot? I know he'd still need to be trimmed but I only get my girl done a few times a year because the ground keeps her's down.

 

[I_A_P]

claribella- i dont think so; i have him to event (although havent done so recently for various reasons) so needs studs etc in. He also does not have great feet and i think the walls would wear too quickly and make him foot sore.

 

[samlf]

I would think going barefoot would probably help a lot.
If not, feed as if he was barefoot to help reduce sensitivity in his feet and also would improve his 'typical tb feet', which btw are only typical because of how they are kept!

Mine hates the stand thing, i dont know why i think she was probably not treated very well at all. try a different farrier who will work with you?

 

[I_A_P]

What do you feed if they are barefoot? Excuse my ignorance. He doesn't get much in the way of hard feed at all.

Would going barefoot stand up to show jumping and eventing? I also would not be able to use studs... I imagine being barefoot would be as 'slippy' as having shoes on?

 

[claribella]

People often think that barefoot causes problems but actually it can really help. It's us humans that have been conditioned to thinking that they need shoes but actually taking them off helps the hoof work properly and often reduces/cures lameness etc There is an transition period and as long as you can cope with that (and when I say you, I mean it will affect you more than your horse because you have to change your way of thinking a bit regarding diet, trimmers etc) then you will be better off and more money in your pocket!!

Regarding the diet, it's helpful to switch to a high fibre/low sugar starch diet. My girl is on fast fibre and linseed for condition. I find that in spring she is a little more sensitive due to the grass in that season.

It does take time but the whole thing is definately worth it.

 

[claribella]

I'm not fully clued up on eventing etc but I have read articles about many people going down the barefoot road and still competing at higher levels. Regarding the slipping, again I'm not sure about in the competing field but I find that my girl has so much more grip without shoes. There were certain areas on our hacks and things, where she always slip and in one particular place she'd be constantly slipping but we rarely do these days.

 

[maisieblu]

OOOPS sorry....as i flicked through, I read this quickly as though you wanted to be naughty WITH your farrier!!!!

 

[marc]

Dont cripple the horse by going barefoot you have enough issues already. I have found from experience where horses are shod has a big effect on their behaviour, where do they prefer to stand for a prolonged period of time? sometimes it can be easier to shoe them in their stable. Perhaps on softer footing for when they are shod or fully shoeing one front hoof before moving on to the opposite front hoof so the horse isnt weight bearing on a bare hoof

 

[I_A_P]

I am open on ideas but just don't think barefoot would help him really, although did not want to dismiss it straight away. I just don't think it will work practically.

Marc- good idea, thanks for the suggestion but he does not like being in the stable (in fact can't wait to get out hehe) . The only place he is more settled is in the field. We tie him in the yard away from the stable facing his paddock as this seems best for him (also have to change his rugs here in the mornings as doesn't settle in the stable or tied right outside)

 

[Littlelegs]

Reading marcs reply gave me another idea, is he on his own when he's done? We tie ours outside for farrier too, and on previous occasions people have borrowed my oldie to get their less than well behaved horses done. She's the lead mare & has a calming effect. She can be relied on to munch hay & not move, if something actually leaps into her she will tell them off whilst she keeps eating. Has yours maybe got a friend who could come in & behave whilst keeping him company?

 

[BigRed]

I think it is easy to say the horse is being naughty - when probably it is pain, although it is often hard to find where the pain is. I can;t comment on that - you have my sympathies. I was sold a horse as good to shoe, only to find out she had to be doped properly or the farrier would not touch her. It is VERY expensive to get the vet out.

The only comment I would make, is ask your vet for dermosesan gel. It works as well as a jab. It is LOADS better than Sedalin. Dermosedan works quickly and lasts a reasonable time. It will mean you need to ask your farrier to give you a proper eta, so you can administer the gel at the right time. I paid about £40 for the gel, and so long as you put it under his tongue - do not squirt it in like a wormer, you should find it effective.

 

[I_A_P]

He is never alone when the farrier is there - my old boy keeps him company and he is very calm.

Well I have always said since I have had him that it may be a pain thing but never really got anywhere with my farrier in this respect and he just says that he has not known another horse like it.

I will be speaking to the vet for the gel as well as it is not something I have heard of.

 

[marc]

i have also had success with the magic syringes on some horses too, having them an hour or two before shoeing they are very cheap but work on only a few horses

 

[Dolcé]

Is it worth thinking about trying another farrier? I don't really hold with this 'farriers demanding sedation because a horse can be tricky'. A really good farrier who actually gives a ***** and understands his 'clients' (horses) would work very hard to help the horse through it's issues. If the sedation is for the sake of the horse it is one thing but just because the farrier doesn't want to have to work a bit harder (as long as the horse isn't dangerous) is another. Our horses are all pretty good although one is a bit quirky with one hind leg, we took his hinds off because the knocking on seemed to cause him distress and he had good feet, the farrier at the time was going to 'sack' our then 12 horses because this one was a bit snatchy with one leg! We have now found our dream farrier! I just could not imagine him balking because a horse is difficult, I know of one he dealt with belonging to a friend, that he worked long and hard with just to be able to pick a foot up. This guy is rapidly taking over our area, never heard a bad work about him and he really loves his job, loves the horses, is brilliant with them and so patient. Is the problem when his legs are pulled forward for rasping, several of our ponies hated this because the stand was too high, our guy just uses his knee instead if need be, the way the old farriers used to!

 

[I_A_P]

Dolce- Yes, I am certainly thinking about it and may call someone later - I know he lives quite local to me so may ask if he can pop over and have a look at this feet on his way home once evening and discuss it with him.

Just tryign to get more recommendations from people I know at the moment so I can be sure they are good.

 

[vicky_sut]

My first guess would be pain, I used to look after a horse that was bad to shoe he would go up or backwards but was sound and eventing. It turned out he had scar tissue in his shoulder that was found by a very good physio. He improved alot with daily leg stretches.

 

[Forester]

If you wanted to try using some sort of "calmer" there is a product called Zylkene which I recently tried on my " difficult to shoe" horse. I tried it as part of a study conducted by a final year veterinary student.Its actually made out of a milk protein. It improved my mares behaviour considerably. It might be worth a try.

 

[doodleberry]

Have you thought that your horse has thin soles and finds it quite uncomfortable putting all weight on one front foot? I have one that cant hold his front foot up for very long due to this so my farrier is extremely patient and lets him tell him when he is feeling sore on the other foot, he lets his foot down for a bit and then my horse will pick his foot up again for the farrier , so they kind of communicate!! perhaps try shoeing on the grass or rubber matting or somewhere soft???? this is only a suggestion but some farriers these days take too much work on and therefore are always in a rush. the other possibility is joints? try bute or even exercising b4 the farrier arrives. if you current farrier cant get on with your horse and hasn't got the patience to figure out whats wrong get another one!!!could be if its a joint problem the farrier is too hard when he is banging on the nails or holds the foot so the joint is bent too far??? try and work out at which point your horse objects good luck

 

[MagicMelon]

I had a horse who would get bored very quickly with the farrier and start pulling away / stamping hoof down / going up in front etc. If its purely down to boredom rather than him being actually scared of the farrier then the 2 things that worked for me where a haynet and one of those mini likits! I just held the likit in my hand the whole time and the horse stood quiet as a lamb licking it, one usually lasts a whole shoeing session easily. Sounds really basic but definately try it, a lot cheaper than sedating...