Navicuar Feet again - better photos - to take shoes off or not...??

viola

viola

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11th September 2010

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August 2009 (The day he was first tried at seller's yard)

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He passed 5 stage vetting week later. Bought as a project horse, hasn't done much, bit of hacking. Two weeks later went lame after being brought back into work - slowly and only on the lunge as was awaiting saddle fitting). He had since been diagnosed with SI strain and navicular (changes on X-rays). Off work for the last year with exception of very on/off work in walk under saddle (20-30min hacking as advised by vets).
He has many musculoskeletal problems and IF he ever recovers from navicular his physio says he will need his movement pattern re-educated due to poor coordination.
His conformation doesn't help - back end high and on the forehand.

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Thank you for reading and all your views.

More photos http://s991.photobucket.com/albums/af34/wiola1/Kingsley Feet/
 
Those shoes are way too small!!

Wedges are not going to help in this sitiation especially as the breakover is already compramised by the toe being too long. If your horse is in shoes at all it should be in egg bars set back to improve the break over and actually give heel support. Im not surprised that your horse is lame. Wedges are also only for short term use as they can cause permenant tendon and ligament damage.

eta: the long toes and the flares also need addressing

It wouldnt hurt to try him barefoot but i would recommend talking to a remedial farrier for a second opinion (AWCF) before taking the shoes off, also discuss with them taking the shoes off. It wouldnt hurt to talk to a 'remedial trimmer' by this i mean a trimmer that has actually successfully rehabilitated a horse with navicular. Otherwise another option is shoes off and turn away (with regular good trimming in the mean time, then bring the horse back into work and reevaluate). As navicular is a concussive disease shoes off can be beneficial as the there is no increased consussion as there is with shoes.

A successful shoe to use on Navicular cases is the easywalker shoe wich is plastic and gives the support of a bar shoe (being a bar shoe) with the benefit of concussion absorbtion.
 
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Ouch, those photos make me wince. Off immediately, without question (and change farrier!!!) With the ground becoming softer its a good time to go for it. Personally I'd have a deep shavings bed ready, and some good hoof boots with soft pads inside for getting over any rough ground between stable and field.

The key question to ask those treating your horse currently is how this approach is going to "cure" the problem, not merely mask the pain temporarily.

Great photos by the way. Well done, and good luck.
 
Hummmmm.... hate seeing wedges.

In your other post you mention that both your vet and farrier wanted the frog to be taking some pressure yet from the photos it's very clear to see that on anything other than a very soft/giving surface the frog will never ever make any ground contact.

The feet are way too long - the shoes and wedges only make things worse. From the photo taken when you went to try him at the dealers yard it's clear they are already feet in trouble.

Taking the shoes may also help his other problems - barefoot horses move more naturally than shod horses... just as human beings without shoes move more naturally than human beings wearing shoes.

It is possible to do this barefoot rehab at home - plenty of good trimmers about - you need to think of it like bringing a horse back from a tendon injury. It shouldn't cost you anymore than it cost to put this set of shoes and wedges on! Most trimmers I know (including me!) don't charge anything like £60-70 a trim. Hoof boots last a lot longer than shoes so work out much cheaper. Changing the diet to a barefoot friendly one usually means saving a fortune as you cut out all those expensive commercial mixes.

He looks a lovely lad who's had his feet screwed up by incorrect diet and bad shoeing - not your fault, not his fault, just how the horse world is at the moment. Try barefoot - what have you got to lose at this point?
 
Awful shoeing!

Its really worth you going barefoot; have you looked at the Rockley farm website?

You can do this kind of rehab yourself with the guidance from a good trimmer; the main thing you need to address is diet.

I would recommend the book 'Feet First' (I got mine from amazon) for some really good info on barefoot and a thorough explaination of how and why it works.

Good Luck!
 
Just read other thread and wanted to say barefoot doesn't haven't to be expensive at all; it's not about having the trimmer all the time as the diet is the most important aspect. It's about the horse being able to grow a better foot to support him, not about a 'magic' trim.

I have both my horses barefoot at a normal livery yard with no special facilities or surfaces to work them on.

When the vet came to vaccinate my (lame) TB shortly after I bought him he looked at his feet and said "well they are absolutely shocking" Now he has great feet and is sound doing lots of roadwork/schooling/jumping.

Seroiusly, give it a go. Your horse will thank you for it. :)
 
OP - I am so glad you are thinking about taking these shoes off. It is this type of poor work that gives farriery a bad name.

Definitely check out Rockly Farm as background info.

But if you can find a good trimmer and are willing (have the resources) to address the horse's management (diet being key), there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to do this at home.

From the photos it would appear that your horse does have dietary issues, the hooves are badly bull nosed, big event lines and significant infection of frog/central sulcus. Horrible contraction too, but that is a combination of poor quality shoeing and the infection (which is also in part down to the shoeing.)

Slightly off point IMO horses with feet in this condition and this badly shod should never pass a vetting. I know I know, there are thousands of feet just like this out there and vets and farriers never pass comment. Shame on them!

OP - you will find the deshoeing process so much easier if you have boots. They do last for ages and many of us find that after the initial transition, they are no longer required. Some of us will always need them during peak grass sugar times.

If your horse changes foot shape so you need to change your boots you will find there is a healthy second hand market so you can offset the expense of new ones. If you are lucky you will be able to pick up a second hand pair from the start. But you will probably find the advice of a good trimmer regarding the best style and fit to suit your horse will save you money.

And thank you for being so open and posting these pictures for everyone to comment on. Not everyone can do it.

Good luck and all the best

Just get those horrors off your horse's feet :-)

Oh - and all the horses I have deshod end up moving so much better - some immediately, some after a considerable time transitioning. But without fail, when they have grown the feet they need for their particular conformation etc, they are softer, find it easier to lift their backs, move out better. Some have cantered for the first time in years.

But you can't expect a horse with metabolic issues and very poor feet to be sound immediately the shoes come off. Which is one reason we recommend boots to start with.
 
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I'd have the shoes removed too, a lot of horse owners seem to turn to barefoot as a last resort when conventional methods haven't worked and they have usually ended up with a sound horse at the end of it all. It would be the route I would take first now.
 
OP - I just want to give you a big hug (I do great hugs!).

Just reviewed the last few posts in your previous thread where you are worrying about cost and other injuries.

I admit I have a lot of experience, so can be a bit 'oh it's easy' when for newbies it is anything but.

However - it is easy if you do it just one step/one day at a time and take lots of deep breaths..........

I use the acronym D.E.T.E.C3.T to help clients remember what they need to do to be successful in their barefoot journey. Diet is where people usually fail, and usually only when on full livery, because then they don't have full control.

Most of my clients are not wealthy, some very much not so. But we always find a way round that one. Barefoot is not about buying a healthy horse, it is about growing one. And it's all in the attitude, the best barefoot clients are those who have a 'can do' approach and take responsibility.

As for the other injuries, you know, mostly I find they get so much less of a problem when the horse can grow the foot it needs rather than the one dictated by the shoe.

Just one example - much against my better judgement I took on a horse (destined for meat) to rehab. My OH intended it should mend my broken heart because my old horse had just died in the most dreadful of circumstances.

Well my attitude has been 'well if we can fix this, we can pretty much fix anything' in that Grace has EPSM, is very prone to laminitis, is allergic to vaccinations and reacts badly to wormers and had been very badly handled too.

If I had 'tried' I could probably have had her diagnosed 'navicular' too, owing to chronic caudal heel pain from thrush and corns. But I tend not to go that route these days.

Anyhow a year later and she is very 'fixed' and the nice/but awful thing is I have completely fallen for her. So much for the rehab project....

So good luck, don't panic and all the best.
 
GMR - these feet don't appear to have as many issues as the OP. But I would advise you get a second opinion from good barefoot trimmer.

Never liked wedges. Dealing with symptoms and an apparent inability to correctly trim a foot.
 
Thanks Lucy,
I seem to spend most of my time crying at the moment.. my boy has been to RVC , but they can only find bruising on the navicular an no damage to soft tissue, there are changes on the navicular, but his still very lame, (6/10) He has had an MRI.
I have had him 11 years, (his 15) and had a new farrier for one year...maybe its that.
Now the RVC are shoeing him but he is a little better but not much..
Feeling like just taking him to the place in exmoor that does barefoot rehab..I love him so much and its heartbreaking and the mo,
G xx
 
Sorry for late reply but was working all day - thank you for all your views and for taking the time to respond. I must say I am slightly shocked by the consistency of your negative comments as this horse is under very professional care including a vet specialising in orthopaedic issues.
The boy's feet were very bad to start with that's true.

I will keep you informed on how he is doing.
I should also add: the wedges are only temporary as we are awaiting different shoes that are made to measure for him. He had egg bar shoes for several months and only improved in the first 2 weeks or so, then went lame again.

I am very tempted to try barefoot but there is a lot of other factors involved which I don't want to discuss on open forum.
Once again thank you and if anyone has any more success stories and/or additional info about the diet - examples?? please do post.
 
LucyPriory said:
OP - I just want to give you a big hug (I do great hugs!).

Just reviewed the last few posts in your previous thread where you are worrying about cost and other injuries.

I admit I have a lot of experience, so can be a bit 'oh it's easy' when for newbies it is anything but.

However - it is easy if you do it just one step/one day at a time and take lots of deep breaths..........

I use the acronym D.E.T.E.C3.T to help clients remember what they need to do to be successful in their barefoot journey. Diet is where people usually fail, and usually only when on full livery, because then they don't have full control.

Most of my clients are not wealthy, some very much not so. But we always find a way round that one. Barefoot is not about buying a healthy horse, it is about growing one. And it's all in the attitude, the best barefoot clients are those who have a 'can do' approach and take responsibility.

As for the other injuries, you know, mostly I find they get so much less of a problem when the horse can grow the foot it needs rather than the one dictated by the shoe.

Just one example - much against my better judgement I took on a horse (destined for meat) to rehab. My OH intended it should mend my broken heart because my old horse had just died in the most dreadful of circumstances.

Well my attitude has been 'well if we can fix this, we can pretty much fix anything' in that Grace has EPSM, is very prone to laminitis, is allergic to vaccinations and reacts badly to wormers and had been very badly handled too.

If I had 'tried' I could probably have had her diagnosed 'navicular' too, owing to chronic caudal heel pain from thrush and corns. But I tend not to go that route these days.

Anyhow a year later and she is very 'fixed' and the nice/but awful thing is I have completely fallen for her. So much for the rehab project....

So good luck, don't panic and all the best.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much for this post!
 
GMR said:
Thanks Lucy,
I seem to spend most of my time crying at the moment.. my boy has been to RVC , but they can only find bruising on the navicular an no damage to soft tissue, there are changes on the navicular, but his still very lame, (6/10) He has had an MRI.
I have had him 11 years, (his 15) and had a new farrier for one year...maybe its that.
Now the RVC are shoeing him but he is a little better but not much..
Feeling like just taking him to the place in exmoor that does barefoot rehab..I love him so much and its heartbreaking and the mo,
G xx
Click to expand...

I really feel for you. We love these horses and want to do whats best for them but sometimes nothing seems to work. Honestly with this horse too barefoot is the way forwards. Those heels are so underun - taking the shoes off will return circulation to the area and strengthen the heels so that the foot can function naturally again. I bet the results of taking the shoes off will astonish you. Respect the healing power of nature!
 
Not a fan of wedges tbh!!! Mine has a chipped navicular bone and under vet and professional farrier recommendation we went with the wedges but mine had more heel support. He was so sore with them he refused to go forwards under saddle and bucked constantly. They were removed after 6 weeks as they were making him worse and three farriers who looked at him said get them off or he'd be crippled in a year!!! So new farrier replaced them with concussion pads and normal shoes, legs swollen and sore for a week then sound :D
 
viola said:
I am very tempted to try barefoot but there is a lot of other factors involved which I don't want to discuss on open forum.
Once again thank you and if anyone has any more success stories and/or additional info about the diet - examples?? please do post.
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I totally understand your "other factors", its not an easy decision and we each have to balance what we can do in our own circumstances.

Eggbar shoes won't work either (tried them too) just temporary relief, as you found out I think earlier. Diet may be an issue, but without removing the shoes, balancing the foot and allowing the heels to spread again diet changes won't help.

All the best and if you want trimmer recommendations I'll do my best to assist you.
 
GMR said:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=822&pictureid=4823
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/picture.php?albumid=822&pictureid=4822 http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/picture.php?albumid=822&pictureid=4821
My horse is in the same position, what do you think, lame since march.
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hi GMR, your farrier is much more skilled but the basic problems are still there. Heels far too long and underrun, left fore more than right fore. Again, my approach would be the same, shoes off, deep shavings bed at night, turn out in the day, soft hoof boots to get him to and from the stable across any challenging ground. I would expect these feet to recover rather quickly to be honest.
 
viola said:
I must say I am slightly shocked by the consistency of your negative comments as this horse is under very professional care including a vet specialising in orthopaedic issues.
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Heaven help us!

If you have an orthopaedic expert who failed to comment on the fact that your horse, diagnosed with pain originating in the heel, has been shod so short that his heels are overhanging the back of his shoes/wedges by a big margin, there is no hope for us ordinary mortals who depend on this so-called "expert" advice. I'd go so far as to suggest that both the farrier and the orthopaedic vet have been incompetent with regard to your horse and that one or both could do with being reported to their governing bodies.

Some people wonder why I seem so anti vets and farriers. This is a great example! The shame is that there are great vets and great farriers, but this work is letting all vets and farriers down, because no-one knows who they can actually trust when "experts" charge you for such appalling work!
 
I have always found vets to be unwilling to comment on even obviously very poor shoeing.

Just one example of many:
A few years ago I had a part livery that was blatently very badly shod.(yes I spoke to the owner but the farrier was the 'expert'). When the horse went lame enough and vet came out he just refused to state the glaringly obvious- it was the feet! After nerve blocks of course it showed pain in the foot, remedial farriery got the horse sound again eventually. (different farrier)

In those days I used to feel sooooo angry and frustrated by it but now I know its sadly par for the course.
 
To add to the negativity: that is a horrendous shoeing job. I'm fairly anti-shoes at the best of times, but those ones just look like instruments of torture.
You might find 'No Foot, No Horse' by Gail Williams and Martin Deacon an interesting read if you are going to carry on shoeing, although it's quite an old book it has some good stuff on how foot balance affects the rest of the body.
For barefoot, look at 'Feet First' by Barker and Braithwaite, Pete Ramey's stuff on the web (free!) and Jaime Jackson's books.
 
Shouldn't the wedges be removed/shoes removed in 2 stages, so the horse can adapt to the different balance? Not all in one go when there might be a danger to the horse's tendons, etc.
 
soloequestrian said:
To add to the negativity: that is a horrendous shoeing job. I'm fairly anti-shoes at the best of times, but those ones just look like instruments of torture.
You might find 'No Foot, No Horse' by Gail Williams and Martin Deacon an interesting read if you are going to carry on shoeing, although it's quite an old book it has some good stuff on how foot balance affects the rest of the body.
For barefoot, look at 'Feet First' by Barker and Braithwaite, Pete Ramey's stuff on the web (free!) and Jaime Jackson's books.
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Just ordered this book, thank you.
 
ORANGEHORSE said:
Shouldn't the wedges be removed/shoes removed in 2 stages, so the horse can adapt to the different balance? Not all in one go when there might be a danger to the horse's tendons, etc.
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He's only had the wedges in since Thursday and they are to be temporary and replaced with aluminium shoes?
Either way, we are now looking into having a barefoot specialist/farrier barefoot friendly coming to see him.
 
your horse needs shoeing properly . the shoes are too small and fitted too tight , the pads need removing ,the feet need dressing and balancing correctly and a pair of shoes need applying that fit . dont go the barefoot route problems such as you are experiencing need both proper foot dressing and the application of shoes correctly to benefit both the horse and yourself .
 
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