Navicuar Feet again - better photos - to take shoes off or not...??

hey everyone-can I have a definition of navicular for a simpleton like me also does anyone know if it passes on to foals from mares, a stud near me has a stunning warmblood mare with a colt foal they want to sell as a potential breeding stallion.. wot does everyone think?::confused:
 
cumbriamax said:
hey everyone-can I have a definition of navicular for a simpleton like me also does anyone know if it passes on to foals from mares, a stud near me has a stunning warmblood mare with a colt foal they want to sell as a potential breeding stallion.. wot does everyone think?::confused:
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There is research which has been quoted in a similar discussion previously that poor quality of the navicular bone is heritable in continental warmbloods.

BUT

There is also evidence that navicular disease (changes to the navicular bone) is caused by lesions in the deep digital flexor tendon inside the foot and that this in turn is caused by a toe first landing. The primary cause of a toe first landing appears to be shoes, since sound and working barefoot horses land heel first.

The other things that cause back-of-the-foot (caudal to use the posh term) pain are collateral ligament damage and impar ligament damage and they are caused primarily by foot imbalance.

Lastly, there is little evidence that poor navicular bone quality causes lameness. My vets have always told me that if you xrayed 100 horses, more than half of them would show changes to the navicular bone and most of them would be perfectly sound. There is a very tenuous link between radiographic changes to the navicular bone and degree, or even existence, of lameness.

Nowt wrong with breeding from that colt, I reckon. (but don't go shouting about his mother, people are so superstitious!)
 
Ah, must be luck that my navicular horse is now happy and sound due to the work of my remedial farrier and vet who work together at each shoeing. A few months ago, this horse was so distressed that everyone thought she should be shot.
The BUA crew at my former yard actually took barefoot trimmers into her field to discuss her care. No one with a correspondance course and a weekend workshop as their training was going anywhere near my horse.
A specialist vet and a former army farrier having worked with the latest research and technology and full time experience of many hundreds of such cases seem to be doing the job for us.
Both were depressed at the thought that, as her owner, pressure had been put on me to go barefoot. Incidently, same farrier has happily removed the front shoes of my other horse and is glad to trim him as needed. Doesn't charge if he doesn't need much doing either.
 
So are lots of them but they don't all get navicular. Anything particular? Long toes and collapsed heels is always a good one. I hope it continues to work for you, but if she deteriorates again, as some of them do, at least you'll have a fallback option. If you are forced to take it (rather than have her retired or put down) you will now find trimmers with serious training who can help you if your farrier can't. I don't think any of us would recommend rehabbing a damaged horse using someone "with a correspondance course and a weekend workshop as their training".
 
good grief cptrayes, change the record!

Your constant drone that shoes are the root of all evil is really very dull.

some horses are badly shod, some will develop an underrun heel, some just have misshapen feet or poor hoof quality anyway.

and sometimes a good farrier and SHOES are actually part of the cure

If you can't see that you are in danger of being regarded as a complete crank and then even if you have something useful to contribute it will be disregarded

like your ulcer comparison though...do you see yourself as a barefoot disciple?

Now that is cranky!
 
the watcher said:
good grief cptrayes, change the record!

Your constant drone that shoes are the root of all evil is really very dull.

some horses are badly shod, some will develop an underrun heel, some just have misshapen feet or poor hoof quality anyway.

and sometimes a good farrier and SHOES are actually part of the cure

If you can't see that you are in danger of being regarded as a complete crank and then even if you have something useful to contribute it will be disregarded

like your ulcer comparison though...do you see yourself as a barefoot disciple?

Now that is cranky!
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So when someone takes the time to explain their point of view in a detailed way, with amazing patience, repeatedly, they become boring?
 
If you don't like what I write, put me on ignore. But the last time I looked we were still living in a country which believes in freedom of speech.

Meanwhile, there are at least two horses belonging to people who use this forum which are well on the way to full health barefoot, having been written off by their vets and farriers. The owners of those two horses have thanked me for the information and support I have given and while owners like that still exist, and while horses can be saved from an unnecessary death or premature retirement, and their owners can be saved from the heartache of a long term lame horse, then I will continue to write whether you like it or not.

You clearly haven't read all my posts (I'm not suggesting that you should have) because if you had you will see that I am far from anti shoes where a horse cannot be kept sound barefoot. Many owners don't have the facilities or time to get their particular horse fully comfortable barefoot. Some riders feel that they need studs. I have written more than once, better a well shod horse than an unsound barefoot one.

There are dozens, probably well into three figures by now, of people of people who have resolved serious lameness problems in their horses that shoes and medication could not resolve. I am one of them. I am not unique. I am not special. I am not even uncommon.

That's the whole point.
 
20% of the horse under our care do not have shoes , so i am not anti barefoot . typical bua response , if you dont like what i say shut up . freedom of speech for you but if you dont like the response we have to shut up ,your rantings might be new to the uk , but the rest bof vthe world has been hearing the baloney now for a lot longer and it is getting tedious . if you read my posts instead of scanning them so you can have an arguement (typical bua again ) you will have read that i live in portugal and practice my profession in many places including the uk . stop turning things around and look to blame others for wanting an arguement you are the problem with your one dimensional view on lameness issues
 
LucyPriory said:
..... and significant infection of frog/central sulcus. Horrible contraction too, but that is a combination of poor quality shoeing and the infection (which is also in part down to the shoeing.)
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My horse had similar infected central sulcus which made the horse sore enough in the heels to try to land the foot toe first and trip in navicular fashion. Just mentioning this in case you have got this going on as well as anything else.
 
I have a navicular horse who was written off by one of the countrys leading equine vet practices and one of the leading farriers after having all the conventional treatments.

Last night I had my first trot on him barefoot and he was as sound as a pound.

If he didnt go barefoot, he would be dead by now.
 
mrdarcy said:
Great to hear about another success story Laura! I bet that trot felt amazing!
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Yes it did - the poor boy couldnt even walk properly when i got him :(

It was the best feeling in the world.

I see him in the mornings now come cantering up the field with my young TB, bucking and farting and I have to pinch myself to remind me that it is actually still the same sad pathetic creature that i collected a year ago

So, BUA - bring it on!! :D
 
cptrayes said:
Fantastic, Laura. We should have a party with all our rehabs!
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Give me another couple of months and we could have a fun ride!!

The one fantastic bonus to this horse is that I have the vets reports and x-rays from when he was diagnosed - he is being re-xrayed in the next few weeks and I will get my vet to do another report and send to the original vets.

I just hope if nothing else it will show them that there is another way, with the evidence to prove it.

I spoke to the original vet who diagnosed it and all she said was that I should PTS and he was a hopeless case.
 
I feel for the OP it's really hard to know what to do for the best sometimes, im going through a similar thing with my Comp horse atm. It's not Navicular but a damaged Impar ligament. We are currently shoeing with Eggbars with Frog support & Equipak to try to reduce concussion.

However there is a lot of sway to go barefoot with this horse as well, Im more than happy with my horses farrier though & im extremely confident with his work. So im trying the Shoes for the time being but i may be going barefoot, but if i do it will be with my Farrier.

Being honest i would be far from happy with the hooves shown in the pictures there is a lot wrong with that shoeing & im far from an expert but luckily i get to see good shoeing so bad stuff tends to stand out.

I wish you luck OP but i would be sacking that farrier imediately.
 
Im not getting in a slagging match here and i think its wrong to so do you not think this girl is going though enough without us ripping each others head of we all have are own opinons it dosent mean there right or wrong their just ours so please only give the best advice we can for the poor girl she must be going though hell
 
dressagecrazy said:
I feel for the OP it's really hard to know what to do for the best sometimes, im going through a similar thing with my Comp horse atm. It's not Navicular but a damaged Impar ligament. We are currently shoeing with Eggbars with Frog support & Equipak to try to reduce concussion.

However there is a lot of sway to go barefoot with this horse as well, Im more than happy with my horses farrier though & im extremely confident with his work. So im trying the Shoes for the time being but i may be going barefoot, but if i do it will be with my Farrier.

Being honest i would be far from happy with the hooves shown in the pictures there is a lot wrong with that shoeing & im far from an expert but luckily i get to see good shoeing so bad stuff tends to stand out.

I wish you luck OP but i would be sacking that farrier imediately.
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Thank you and hope you will find a way to rehab your horse's injury too - I have seen your photos and your horse is stunning and so talented.

I would like to thank you for all the advice and PMs - I spent last week reading all I could find on the subject. I'm overwhelmed by your response and the will to help, thank you ever so much again.
Personally I am open minded as far as shoeing goes and I wouldn't keep every horse barefoot by default but it looks like for our horse and in this moment in time it's either barefoot or PTS.
The latter has been crossed off...We contacted someone and made some decisions. As soon as it's all finalised I will post an update :)
 
traceyann said:
Im not getting in a slagging match here and i think its wrong to so do you not think this girl is going though enough without us ripping each others head of we all have are own opinons it dosent mean there right or wrong their just ours so please only give the best advice we can for the poor girl she must be going though hell
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Thank you.
Fortunately, I've been on this Forum for long enough to learn to take the advice and ignore the arguments.
 
I have today got at my yard a 16.2 ID x mare with navicular, confirmed by scans at Rossdales. She has wedges on at the moment, which are coming off tomorrow. She has been given to a friend.
I think it has been 'caused' by really bad farriery, the horses at the yard where she is shod all have terribly shaped feet, constantly pull their shoes off and get bruised soles. I have always had my horses shod, never barefoot, but I have never had any of those problems.
Anyway, shes a lovely mare and hopefully my farrier will get on top of it. He has seen her feet and thinks she can be fine, but needs a radical reshape which will take time.
I haven't read all the middle pages so may have missed out on some bickering but heres to hoping both yours and mine are sound soon.
 
Good luck with your barefoot journey Voila - hope it works for your horse.

I've met some horses that it has worked very well for.

But just to give something to think about look at this - this was the shoe that came off that foot after a period of increasing unsoundness - look how much the back of the hoof has changed. That's what should have been at the back of that foot - but it couldn't develop when he was shod.

DSCF0381.JPG
 
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I cant offer any advice as am still trying to find some myself but I really hope your horse comes right for you.

My boy has navicular and I have tried everything (steriods, Tildren, Navilux, Egg Bars) and nothing has helped.
 
viola said:
Personally I am open minded as far as shoeing goes and I wouldn't keep every horse barefoot by default but it looks like for our horse and in this moment in time it's either barefoot or PTS.
The latter has been crossed off...We contacted someone and made some decisions. As soon as it's all finalised I will post an update :)
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I'd like to wish you and your horse the best of luck with your decision.
 
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