Navicular and diet

[cellie]

I'm four months into barefoot as my horse has navicular . There's some improvement with lameness and frogs look good although one heel is still contracted and bit upright / boxy . I've started him on pro hoof his regular diet is linseed fast fibre and dengie hi fi . Should I be adding salt to his feed I'm sure I've read this can aid navicular and benefit supplement intake . I've only just started little bit of walk ridden previously long reined as he was too uncomfortable . I'm aware of rockley site and walk him over gravel and different surfaces .. Is there anything else I'm missing ?

 

[cellie]

I'm four months into barefoot as my horse has navicular . There's some improvement with lameness and frogs look good although one heel is still contracted and bit upright / boxy . I've started him on pro hoof his regular diet is linseed fast fibre and dengie hi fi . Should I be adding salt to his feed I'm sure I've read this can aid navicular and benefit supplement intake . I've only just started little bit of walk ridden previously long reined as he was too uncomfortable . I'm aware of rockley site and walk him over gravel and different surfaces .. Is there anything else I'm missing ?

Forgot to say he has Brewers yeast as well and I've just bought boots to try for riding as I realise he needs to improve blood supply .

 

[ycbm]

How much are you walking him? At this stage I would be doing an hour two days out of three and I would have expected a sound horse by now. Is he landing heel first?

 

[Orangehorse]

Put him in boots with pads in so he can land comfortably and therefore feel more like doing longer distances. I think you will notice a difference with the Pro Hoof too.

 

[cellie]

Definitely heel first now . Should also add he had irap and Osphos . If heel is still contracted and you can see growth line surely there are some changes that still need to be made. Growth line is half way down hoof capsule . I've been doing 10 to 15 mins 5 times a day . Can't long rein on roads too busy and he had horrid experience with 4 horse and cart so I'm bit stumped

 

[cellie]

That should have read a week oops

 

[cellie]

Boots arrived yesterday I plan on riding in them tonight and leaving bf for turnout

 

[DGIN]

Hi, I have a 22 year old TB who went to Rockley when he was 17 (he was diagnosed with Navicular about 10 months before). I feed him pro hoof, alfalfa pellets and speedibeet. Hes also on the supplement No Bute now as his arthritis gets to him a bit. They say to feed a no sugar diet. Road work is great for building up good strong hoofs, the more road work you do the more the hoof grows to compensate. Any more info you want to know just ask as ive been through it all with my boy........

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

Forgot to say he has Brewers yeast as well and I've just bought boots to try for riding as I realise he needs to improve blood supply .

You don't walk over gravel if he is footsore, Rockley have a lot of different surfaces, but I don't think they use gravel [sharp bits of stone] to help the horse. Once the feet are toughened up, they may cope with gravel.
Pea gravel is a different matter, it is soft, round and slightly crunchy, even humans can walk on it barefoot.

 

[ycbm]

That should have read a week oops

He isn't doing enough work.

 

[cellie]

Thank you mines tb as well but only 7 . I have pellets but they make him bit wired . Road work used to be great until we had problem with traffic but I can work on that .

 

[cellie]

Probably didn't describe it well it's packed down from cars so rough gritty surface but not exactly pea shingle . It's not my yard so I can't dictate what's put down although I'd love to try pea shingle to speed things up .

 

[cellie]

Wouldn't working lame horse make it worse . He's sound in walk in his paddock now . I was also dealing with surgery on his back from Ks op . I tried working early on but he regressed so backed off . One of his hooves is still compromised and very contracted although improving .

 

[ycbm]

Wouldn't working lame horse make it worse . He's sound in walk in his paddock now . I was also dealing with surgery on his back from Ks op . I tried working early on but he regressed so backed off . One of his hooves is still compromised and very contracted although improving .

Walk appears to put them right, not cause more issues. I have walked all mine, in hand to start if they were lame. The Rockley track system works because it makes them walk and they lead out from another horse of the horse is not sound to ride.

I have had two which were long term unsound and had also been rested for lengthy periods and they did not come sound until they were walking for an hour two days out of three.

These had no problems other than the navicular syndrome.

 

[cellie]

Walk appears to put them right, not cause more issues. I have walked all mine, in hand to start if they were lame. The Rockley track system works because it makes them walk and they lead out from another horse of the horse is not sound to ride.

I have had two which were long term unsound and had also been rested for lengthy periods and they did not come sound until they were walking for an hour two days out of three.

These had no problems other than the navicular syndrome.

. Today I worked him for 30 mins he is sound in walk and looks pretty good in straight line in trot without rider . We have gone from head bobbing lameness to feeling off in trot he asked today round our track which is grass and is much better is it good idea to keep plugging away in walk or let them have small trot if he asks . I will try road work later but he's highly strung tb so safety first .
Personally I don't agree with box rest restricted turnout much better and I know movement is key but unsure if I should allow trot . He's in boots just for riding and do much happier .

 

[ycbm]

I do what they are happy to do. I wouldn't want to trot far if the horse is not sound, but of it's safer to let him move faster for a short distance, then I would. It sounds as though things are moving fast in the right direction for you

 

[ester]

I agree with ycmb, more walking on whatever surface he is comfortable on/boots if necessary. Personally I wouldn't trot until happily doing 45 mins/ hours worth of walking most of days (unless to get out of way of a car ), I then started trotting on a long stretch of flat grass we had access to. I did everything hacking before we did any circles.

I don't think ycmb meant box rest when she said rest particularly either.

 

[cellie]

I'd love to get out hacking again he was great as 4 yr old but our roads are horrendous at moment . Hoping new road will divert some of heavy traffic away from country lanes . The lorries and tractors pass to close and he loses the plot a bit . We have track round paddocks I can use nice straight lines ��

 

[missyclare]

So, was the navicular definitely diagnosed by xray or are you dealing with some kind of pain in the back of the foot? Is the navicular foot the boxy foot? I wonder how long the heels are at this point If the boxy foot has not quite "come around" yet, then it probably was the one with the worst pathology to get over and is being favored more so than the rest. This makes the growth pile on like that. Makes sense to me...keep patience on your sleeve. Heck, it takes a full year to grow a new hoof and here you are only a few months down the road and things are looking much improved. It all sounds like a good run so far and yes, boots with those magical pads and more roadwork. The things that come to mind that would lock in contracted heels are thrush, still a long toe pulling, uncleared quarters, excessive bars holding in false sole at the back of the hoof and a heel that is still too long and a frog not ready. The boots with pads with the road work will develop the back of the hoof and the concavity, that allows the farrier to "arrive" with his trim. I also believe that more roadwork is going to put you on top of this. This journey is called transition, you have to graduate and you're getting there. Boots/pads/more road work is going to cut transition time way shorter as well.

 

[TPO]

Movement is key (along with diet) BUT you need the horse to be taking comfortable steps. There is nothing to gain in making a horse walk over a surface that he is sore on.

Boots (and pads) are your best bet to enable him to take comfortable steps. If you have a school/grass/smooth tarmac, basically any surface he is comfortable on, then walk him without boots over them gradually increasing the time. His feet will strengthen and you can change/remove the pads you are using and increase the time out of boots and varying surfaces you work him over.

Are you using a farrier or a "trimmer"?

Some horses don't do well with Fast Fibre (it contains "NIS" - nutritionally improved straw which is basically straw broken down with caustic (I believe) chemicals to make it digestible in the equine gut and oatfeed) and Hi-fi (again contains NIS and Alfa). I'm presuming from the relatively low calorie feeds that your horse doesn't need condition? A plain grass chop with the linseed and Pro Hoof might be enough. Some horses who are sensitive to alfa in chop cope with it find as a soaked feed like Alfabeet. It's a lot of trial and error to find out what works for each horse as they all vary so much.

I found the "Hoof Guided Method" by Maureen Tierny a good help. I have every "barefoot" book I can find but this is the smallest (and cheapest at £15) but it made the most sense. It illustrates the points that missyclare has made re the toes pulling the hoof forward and the sole ridges to indicate where/how to trim the toe back.

Best of luck, it will be worth it

 

[cellie]

So, was the navicular definitely diagnosed by xray or are you dealing with some kind of pain in the back of the foot? Is the navicular foot the boxy foot? I wonder how long the heels are at this point If the boxy foot has not quite "come around" yet, then it probably was the one with the worst pathology to get over and is being favored more so than the rest. This makes the growth pile on like that. Makes sense to me...keep patience on your sleeve. Heck, it takes a full year to grow a new hoof and here you are only a few months down the road and things are looking much improved. It all sounds like a good run so far and yes, boots with those magical pads and more roadwork. The things that come to mind that would lock in contracted heels are thrush, still a long toe pulling, uncleared quarters, excessive bars holding in false sole at the back of the hoof and a heel that is still too long and a frog not ready. The boots with pads with the road work will develop the back of the hoof and the concavity, that allows the farrier to "arrive" with his trim. I also believe that more roadwork is going to put you on top of this. This journey is called transition, you have to graduate and you're getting there. Boots/pads/more road work is going to cut transition time way shorter as well.

thanks for reply I've had X-rays lollipop lesions were present . Frog looking really healthy after initial development of thrush . The new hoof is much less contracted . Road work is not good option at moment he hypher feeling much better and I need time in saddle o get him listening again . Thinking of investing in calmer as well . He's 7 to so going through rebellious period as he's had time off

 

[cellie]

Movement is key (along with diet) BUT you need the horse to be taking comfortable steps. There is nothing to gain in making a horse walk over a surface that he is sore on.

Boots (and pads) are your best bet to enable him to take comfortable steps. If you have a school/grass/smooth tarmac, basically any surface he is comfortable on, then walk him without boots over them gradually increasing the time. His feet will strengthen and you can change/remove the pads you are using and increase the time out of boots and varying surfaces you work him over.

Are you using a farrier or a "trimmer"?

Some horses don't do well with Fast Fibre (it contains "NIS" - nutritionally improved straw which is basically straw broken down with caustic (I believe) chemicals to make it digestible in the equine gut and oatfeed) and Hi-fi (again contains NIS and Alfa). I'm presuming from the relatively low calorie feeds that your horse doesn't need condition? A plain grass chop with the linseed and Pro Hoof might be enough. Some horses who are sensitive to alfa in chop cope with it find as a soaked feed like Alfabeet. It's a lot of trial and error to find out what works for each horse as they all vary so much.

I found the "Hoof Guided Method" by Maureen Tierny a good help. I have every "barefoot" book I can find but this is the smallest (and cheapest at £15) but it made the most sense. It illustrates the points that missyclare has made re the toes pulling the hoof forward and the sole ridges to indicate where/how to trim the toe back.

Best of luck, it will be worth it

I need calories but use linseed he's tb fibre is to try and keep level head which isn't working to well at moment . I'll take another look at feed thanks . I use a farrier but can't do anything too fast as he reacts to just rasping so we will have to Change things gradually . Farrier said he is starting to self trim already . Hooves are improving all time and only just started using pads and boots for ridden work . Hopefully I can get him back on roads when he calms down . Thanks

 

[tallyho!]

Definitely add salt.

I think just keep up with the walking in boots or bare, whatever is comfortable on the day as each day is different I found with my navicular rehab. Food wise, I laid off the alfalfa and stuck to grass and speedibeet with a copper rich supplement. Seemed to do the trick but each horse is different. Yours will be different. I have a horse that does best on absolutely nothing whatsoever barefoot. Just grass. Happy days!

Back to my gelding, I turned him away over winter (October - December) and was absolutely amazed at the changes!! We had a really frozen year that year too which I think helped enormously as his foot grew really strong on the hard ground. He never looked lame out there and had two other geldings he played with. In January I was leading him out bare on tarmac. Tarmac is fantastic stuff for rehab. By June we were dressage schooling, and then in October did a couple of HT's out and about. We were 3rd in one.

It can be done. It's early days and every horse has different needs. There is no prescribed time or method. Feel your way, sounds like your farrier has lots of experience. I think the key is to find people who have lots of experience with proper barefoot, not just a farrier that does cheap pasture trims. They often cause more harm or prolong the process.

It comes down to your knowledge too, as barefoot is not mainstream. People have opinions and what works for one person in County Durham is going to be different for someone in Bristol. For all sorts of reasons. So, just arm yourself with as much self-education as possible. Research research research.

It's great we can share experience on a forum too and that adds to it. Hope you're feeling supported anyway. Navicular will come right, what you're aiming for is building strength, space and flexibility back to that area that has been impinged and compromised. Taking shoes off has removed 90% of the problem and now that leaves the fine tuning with diet and exercise and time to heal.

 

[cellie]

There's a lot of info on Internet like you said applying to your own needs and fine tuning . Biggest problem at moment is bringing him into work sensibly . He's now bit more rebellious to the 4 yr old I started with .7 yrs old and too much energy that can't be channelled some days I feel like he's going to send me into orbit . I'm just picking my moments I'm no good to him broken . I tried walking him over poles fore core strengthening and he's so full of energy he is trying to jump and is effectively lunging which is not great idea . I'm going to get calmer see if that helps until we can get more discipline . Either that or employ stunt rider ������

 

[tallyho!]

There's a lot of info on Internet like you said applying to your own needs and fine tuning . Biggest problem at moment is bringing him into work sensibly . He's now bit more rebellious to the 4 yr old I started with .7 yrs old and too much energy that can't be channelled some days I feel like he's going to send me into orbit . I'm just picking my moments I'm no good to him broken . I tried walking him over poles fore core strengthening and he's so full of energy he is trying to jump and is effectively lunging which is not great idea . I'm going to get calmer see if that helps until we can get more discipline . Either that or employ stunt rider ������

Sorry, why is lungeing over poles not a good idea?

 

[ycbm]

Sorry, why is lungeing over poles not a good idea?

One key test for navicular syndrome lameness is to lunge in a circle because that exposes the lameness. The reason for that is that is where the most damage is caused. So in rehabbing a navicular horse, you want it sound on straight lines before you put it on circles, preferably. Adding poles to a circle would be about the last exercise I would want a horse like Cellie's to be doing at the moment.

 

[tallyho!]

One key test for navicular syndrome lameness is to lunge in a circle because that exposes the lameness. The reason for that is that is where the most damage is caused. So in rehabbing a navicular horse, you want it sound on straight lines before you put it on circles, preferably. Adding poles to a circle would be about the last exercise I would want a horse like Cellie's to be doing at the moment.

Not the school of thought for my navicular... although we are not talking making the horse go round like a bucket on the end of a rope here...

Just do it gently on a soft surface. Any exercise is beneficial. make sure it is gentle.

 

[cellie]

Tally ho not quite sure what you mean ...are you saying work in school is helping your horse ? I find deep surface is harder for mine although hoof boots have helped as soft surface doesn't push into soft tissues . Mines more comfortable on grass . One hoof is still very contracted at heel although it is opening . Just not sure how long it's going to take before he's really comfortable ridden . Are you lunging or just walking on lunge ?

 

[tallyho!]

Tally ho not quite sure what you mean ...are you saying work in school is helping your horse ? I find deep surface is harder for mine although hoof boots have helped as soft surface doesn't push into soft tissues . Mines more comfortable on grass . One hoof is still very contracted at heel although it is opening . Just not sure how long it's going to take before he's really comfortable ridden . Are you lunging or just walking on lunge ?

I don't have an arena so only ever worked on grass.

ycbm is making assumptions about lungeing... you can promote exercise on the ground in walk if you like on a lungeline. Exercise is the ultimate goal no matter how it is done. You are building strength in the hoof capsule.

 

[ycbm]

I don't have an arena so only ever worked on grass.

ycbm is making assumptions about lungeing... you can promote exercise on the ground in walk if you like on a lungeline. Exercise is the ultimate goal no matter how it is done. You are building strength in the hoof capsule.

I do not agree with you. If a horse has unbalanced feet, and particularly if there is collateral ligament damage, then I would not want it working in any area where it is constantly required to be turning corners or circles. There is a reason why turning corners is usually where navicular type lameness first shows up.

The objective is not just to build a stronger foot. The primary objective is to allow the soft tissue damage which creates the lameness to recover, and only subsequently supporting it and preventing it becoming damaged again by building a better strength foot. It's not just about a new foot, the damage has to be allowed to recover, and work on straight lines on supportive flat surfaces is more likely to achieve that result than turns and circles.

Tallyho, you are the only person I have ever seen advocate arena work and lunge work for the early stages of a navicular rehab.