Navicular - At what point do you decide to try barefoot??

islandspirit

islandspirit

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 April 2010
Messages
324
Location
South West
Visit site
I have just started to ride my horse post surgey for KS, it's been a very long process and I was over the moon to get back on board but after 1 week of short hacks in walk he has become intermittantly lame on his left fore. He had both fronts xrayed a couple of years ago and we found that the pedal bone had reverse rotated due to poor hoof pastern axis and blocks were carried out resulting in the vet making a diagnosis of Navicular. My question is at what point to you go ahead and try barefoot? I have read several accounts of horses coming sound by removing the shoes but is this just hearsay or does it really work?
 
Go barefoot first.

Rockley Farm have now sorted out about 30 horses with caudal hoof lameness, and I and dozens of other people have done one each, making probably a couple of hundred in total?? Most of those horses were still lame after bar shoes, wedges, adequan, tildren, HLA and every other known non-surgical treatment. Most of them came fully sound with barefoot.

So why start with meds and shoes, which fail 80% of the time, when barefoot succeeds 80% or more of the time???

Research good feeding first. Be prepared to wait while your horse's feet harden up if they are soft. Be prepared to put the work in to gradually increase his work on various surfaces. Get a trimmer/farrier who knows what they are doing with a navicular rehab. And then hopefully enjoy many sound years with your horse.

If we can help, just ask.
 
islandspirit said:
He had both fronts xrayed a couple of years ago and we found that the pedal bone had reverse rotated due to poor hoof pastern axis
Click to expand...

This diagnosis is incorrect, surely?

The poor hoof pastern axis is a result of the low heels your horse has. The low heels have possibly/probably been caused by shoes. The reverse pedal bone angle is due to the low heels, not the hoof pastern axis. Both are the result of the weak heels. The quickest and easiest and cheapest way to rebuild heels is to work the horse barefoot on supportive surfaces like a sand arena and on flat surfaces like roads. Once his heels beef up, the reverse pedal bone angle and the hoof/pastern axis will right themselves. Look on rockleyfarm.blogspot.com for many photos of heels beefing up in weeks with the right stimulus.
 
Ditto all previous posters

I have a paper on Negative Palmar Angle by Andrea E. Floyd, DVM that should help answer some of your questions relating to the change in angle of p3. I can't figure out how/if to attach on here so if it sounds of interest just PM me your email address and I'll send it over.

Good Luck
 
Thank you so much for all your advice, barefoot definately seems to be the way forward. I may have gotten confused over the reasons for the reverse rotation, will check on my bills when I get home. Do you think it would be best to send him to Rockley Farm or could I do this myself? do I need to find a local practitioner and what do I need to feed??? Sorry - so many questions..... Currently he's fed on topspec senior, dengie alfa a mollasses free and magnitude.
 
if you can (and esp if your insurance would stand the cost) then I would def consider Rockley because your horse already has problems, so isn't just a case of whiping shoes off a sound working horse. Why don't you read the blog/website and give Nic an email so you can work out what would suit you and your horse the best?
Good luck!
 
You could do it yourself but Rockley is very close to you, near Bridgewater, so it would be easy to send him there. Their facilities are so perfect for these horses that they recover very quickly, and their fees are not extortionate, because part of the treatment is that the horses live out and keep moving. If you are insured you can get a referral.

Lots of barefooters don't do well on alfalfa, and there are quite a few anecdotes of problems with Top Spec products too. Buy teh book "Feet First" from Amazon and it will give you a really good idea of what going barefoot means.
 
Rockley Farm is all very well and good, and takes the hassle out of transitioning a horse. But the trouble with not being involved at every stage, is when you get your fixed horse back, you may not necessarily have the knowledge to continue the work, as going barefoot is a longterm process. Yes, Rockley can probably get your horse sound in 3 months, but there will still be improvement to be made over the course of months and years. You could rapidly go back to square one without knowledge of all the issues affecting barefoot horses, how to maintain their progress, and the support of a qualified barefoot trimmer who will advise on everything you need to do between trims, not just tidy the hoof and leave.

So it's up to you, and if you're near to Rockley and would take an active interest in what's going on, and gen up on what you need to do when your horse comes home, and get the support of a good trimmer (my preference is the DAEP qualification), then go for it. But you can do all this without sending your horse away, it's not essential, and it's often best to be involved in a hands on way from Day 1.
 
I agree that the owner of a barefoot horse needs to take more responsibility over their feet than the average person, especially where the horse has a pathology.

But it need not be complicated - it's a process of learning to just relax, leave alone and let the hooves get on with it usually.

The problems tend to occur where we humans start interfering, either by diet or rasp;)

The time the horse is at Rockley gives sufficient time for an owner to brush up on their barefoot knowledge and time to find adequate support for the future.

It is fully possible to rehab a horse at home. There is no magic wand that Rockley waves, it is all the same stuff that can be done at home - however the owner will often not have the support of the vet or farrier for this course of action. So unless the owner is already an experienced barefooter - they will be largely on their own.

My livery mates rehabbed their horse at home - and they were not experienced barefooters and they did not use forums for support. They had to rely completely on their trimmer - who is (fortunately) excellent.
 
You sound exactly like me about 3 months ago! My boy was diagnosed early June, had steroid injections which did nothing other than possibly give him low grade laminitis, and was shod remedially to support the heel (normal shoes, just set back further).
Looked good initially and after second shoeing was sound... then went completely lame.
I too found very quickly that a lot of horses are coming sound when going barefoot so the shoes have been off a month now, I can see his feet changing and he is sound in walk and some trotting.
Have absolutely no idea what I'm doing despite reading all the books but decided to try it at home first - Rockley is quite expensive.
It's proving to be quite a lot of work, we're up to 30 mins in hand walking now, both on the road and in the school. Road is ok but the school really kills me.
Can be very frustrating too, he seems to have good days and not so good days so I'm constantly wondering if I'm doing too much/ not enough / feeding the right diet etc
Hope it works out for your horse.
 
My gelding was diagnosed with navicular about twelve years ago and I had all the remedial shoing etc etc and for the next seven years and one year of retirement later, I decided there was nothing to lose by trying barefoot. I wish the bf movement had been further forward when I had the diagnosis so I could have saved time and maybe I would have had more time riding etc. He has been bare for 5 years now and I had to learn quickly. Good bit of advice I had was try not to measure the progress to often, especially if you are getting down about it. Try to look back at how things were a few months ago and compare the improvement - and there will be rapid improvement - take plenty of pictures of the feet, then you can look back at where you started out.
I found it very lonely, you have to be very strong willed to carry on and to ignore the whispers and dissapproving looks. Others couldn't understand why I was putting my horse through this, when the vet and the farrier had advised against it. One disadvantage I didn't bargain for was, when my gelding sprained a suspensory ligament, I called the vet out and she took one look at his bare feet and said he will have a bruised sole. She told me to rest him for a couple of weeks and bring him back into work and if he goes lame again, she would come back with her hoof testers!
Things are a bit better for us now, vets are better clued up and some are better than others and there is a lot more support in places like this and Rockley. We need lots more rehab yards around the country with Paddock Paradise systems set up so we can board our horses amoungst others doing the same. I have eventually found a yard where most of the horses are bare and the owner does her own trimming, I feel I am amongst like minded people now.
I would go barefoot definitely, learn all you can and try not to worry too much. Your horse's feet will fast begin to heal themselves once you get those constricting iron shoes off. Good luck:)
 
Delta99 said:
Rockley is quite expensive.
.
Click to expand...

Got to correct this, sorry. There are people who have paid less to have their horse full time at Rockley in rehab than they paid for livery when the horse was sound. And livery does not normally include ridden exercise, total hoof care and recovery from life threatening lameness. Rockley is a bargain, she has a waiting list and could charge far more than she does.

I have no connection with Rockley other than knowing the owner. We need a yard like it in every county in the country. It is very worrying to go it alone, especially if your vet and farrier are sceptics.
 
Last edited:
Delta99 said:
You sound exactly like me about 3 months ago! My boy was diagnosed early June, had steroid injections which did nothing other than possibly give him low grade laminitis, and was shod remedially to support the heel (normal shoes, just set back further).
Looked good initially and after second shoeing was sound... then went completely lame.
I too found very quickly that a lot of horses are coming sound when going barefoot so the shoes have been off a month now, I can see his feet changing and he is sound in walk and some trotting.
Have absolutely no idea what I'm doing despite reading all the books but decided to try it at home first - Rockley is quite expensive.
It's proving to be quite a lot of work, we're up to 30 mins in hand walking now, both on the road and in the school. Road is ok but the school really kills me.
Can be very frustrating too, he seems to have good days and not so good days so I'm constantly wondering if I'm doing too much/ not enough / feeding the right diet etc
Hope it works out for your horse.
Click to expand...

You're not alone!

If you're not already a member - the UKNHCP forum is full of peeps who can give you help and support if you need it.

I'm so in awe of owners who have 'gone it alone'. It takes a lot of guts to go against vet's advice and put up with people tutting at you with no guarantee that you're doing the right thing:P

I bow my head in respect to you and muff747 both;)
 
Definately try bare foot straight away. I looked at sending my mare to Rockley 2 years ago and just wasn't ready to take that step, and also the cost did put me off. 2 years later I was in no better a place with my beautiful mare so I contaced Rocklley farm again and made the huge decision to send her away. Very hard becasue it was not within easy travelling distance for me.
I would disagree that it is expensive. Although the price put me off 2 years ago this was not becasue they were expensive but because I was not convinced that bare foot was the right route for me.
They are incredibly good value for money and I have to emphasize that the support you get is amazing. I would not have coped with taking my mare bare foot myself and in fact she had been bare foot for 3 months before going to Rockley whilst waiting for a space. I did not have enough varying surfaces to start the rehab process off effectively myself at home, and within 2 weeks of going to Rockley the difference in her feet was astonishing.
I was so distraught at the entire situation and history of 2 years that for me sending Saffy away was the best thing for both of us to give her the best possible chance.
I imagine there are some situations that you can do it yourself but the expertise, on going long term support, and eductaion that rockley provides is invaluable and worth every single penny, and evert tear you may cry leaving your horse behind temporarily.
My mare has been home for a couple of months now and we are going from strangth to strength. I have the foundations to steadily build on what is currently a sound horse for the first time in 3 years. It is very hard and it is a long process but most definately worth the effort.
Good luck
 
Wow, not one reply saying don't do it! Trouble is I'm still so nervous, probably because there is this great divide between the barefoot and shod communities and when you say you're contemplating taking shoes off to treat the Navicular to other owners with shod horses they look at you as though you are crazy!!!! And the barefoot owners can't understand why you would contemplate shoes in the first place. I did question one of the other livery's farrier after I posted this question and he wanted me to try natural balance shoes or wedges but that seems stupid to me to be messing even more with the foot. One interesting comment has been that horses were never mean't for us to ride them but we do, so why shouldn't we put shoes on them as well? My heart says go for it but my head keeps over rulling with lots of what ifs and buts!
 
islandspirit said:
One interesting comment has been that horses were never mean't for us to ride them but we do, so why shouldn't we put shoes on them as well?
Click to expand...

That's a bit like saying: - well it's going to die anyway so it doesn't matter [if I beat it over the head]. (once used by a farm hand seeing smacking a calf over the head with a bucket)

What many people seem to have forgotten is that horses are designed to travel great distances on a daily basis - over very rough, harsh terrain and their weight naturally fluctuates quite considerably.

Hooves are living, anatomical structures, which can change over time and require work to stay fit. Shoeing traps them in a cycle of dependency. If you remove the shoes the hoof may require some rehabilitation because the hoof has become weak. (also known as transition). Navicular hooves are at the more extreme end. This doesn't mean removing the shoes from a 'navicular' is a bad idea, it just takes more skill and knowledge to rehabilitate the feet successfully.

And for some navicular feet diet is particularly important, but often over looked. I am currently dealing with one where I'd lay money that the whole mess started with long term low grade laminitis which was never diagnosed and which shoeing most definitely didn't fix.
 
islandspirit said:
Wow, not one reply saying don't do it! Trouble is I'm still so nervous, probably because there is this great divide between the barefoot and shod communities and when you say you're contemplating taking shoes off to treat the Navicular to other owners with shod horses they look at you as though you are crazy!!!! And the barefoot owners can't understand why you would contemplate shoes in the first place. I did question one of the other livery's farrier after I posted this question and he wanted me to try natural balance shoes or wedges but that seems stupid to me to be messing even more with the foot. One interesting comment has been that horses were never mean't for us to ride them but we do, so why shouldn't we put shoes on them as well? My heart says go for it but my head keeps over rulling with lots of what ifs and buts!
Click to expand...

We're either all brain washed and no one can be bothered arguing with us, or barefoot is the best option....you can decide which one is more likely:O

Have you checked out Rockley's blog today with the news of the rehab's reunion? Most of those horses went there as a last chance.

Natural Balance shoes do what?

They try to replicate a fully functioning hoof....Why not just do it more cheaply and simply and actually allow the hoof to do it's job? You'll get a much more reliable result than 'special shoes'.

As for wedges [shudder] they are trying to replicate again, but are a poor substitute and will eventually lead to tendon problems.

As for horses not being able to work without shoes - tell that to all the barefoot endurance horses in the world.....

At the moment you are looking for a way out within your comfort zone.

My livery mate with Schoko has been in the exact same position. Two years later and we are on the yard having a good moan about the lame, shod horses we both see who's loving owners would rather carry on as normal, and have the unlevel gait described as, "just the way the horse moves" than take the shoes off.

Frustration isn't the word.

Take the shoes off, get the right diet, sympathetic trimmer/farrier and watch your horse transform.

Despite what you may have heard, it WON'T do your horse any harm.
 
Hi... My horse is a Rockley rehab. She was officially diagnosed with navicular (inflamed bursa/possible ddft damage) last September. I tried 1 set of wedges then graduated bar shoes for 2 weeks, then asked my farrier to take them off! I'd read the Rockley blog and decided to give barefoot a try.. I was going to try rehab her myself, but then decided to send her to Rockley and it was the best thing I ever did!

I do think that it's something I could have done myself, but it would have taken a lot longer and I obviously didn't have the knowledge... Nic has been fantastic and helped me through the rough times since getting Patsy home (so much to learn) and I would have really struggled without her!
The cost was only slightly more than what I was paying livery, and I would have paid treble that to the vets if I'd carried on with their suggested treatments.. it was worth every penny and the long journey! (from the north-east)

It's also interesting how you say your horse had kissing spine, as Patsy was diagnosed with that too (along with hind suspensory/annular ligament desmitis).. and I honestly think it's been linked to her being uncomfortable in her feet.. her stance has changed for the better and she is actually carrying herself (even the physio was amazed at the difference in her).. so to me she has been 'fixed' in many other ways too.

Good luck with whatever you decide :)
 
Thank you so much for all your advice, can I ask those of you that sent your horses to Rockley Farm for rehab, did you livery yard hold your place to come back to? Good quality yards are hard to come by near me and I don't want to loose my spot. I think I am more worried about sending Spirit away than I am of taking the shoes off. I've taken so long with the rehab after the KS op that it's hard to relinquish control.
 
My livery yard wouldn't hold my place unless I paid full whack.. which was full livery at nearly £400 a month, so clearly couldn't afford both. I put a deposit at another yard and she held my stable for 3 months for a £50 deposit, and also let me put the trailer there.. so suppose it depends on the yard owner?
 
One other point is that poor foot balance like this could well have contributed to the kissing spine issue - poor stance over a prolonged period causing his spine to be compromised.

Another reason to get those feet sorted quickly.
 
I can rave and rave about Rockley Farm all day long.

I am not exaggerating here when I say that it has saved my horse who would not be here if I had not sent him to Rockley.

Two different vets told me to have him PTS after trying every possible treatment going for navicular - steriod injections, tildren, nacilux, remedial farriery, box rest...

It's no straight forward easy solution by any means but it was hands down the best decision I have ever made for me and my horse.
 
Andalucian said:
One other point is that poor foot balance like this could well have contributed to the kissing spine issue - poor stance over a prolonged period causing his spine to be compromised.

Another reason to get those feet sorted quickly.
Click to expand...

Its difficult to say whether you are correct about the KS being caused by feet, I have only owned Spirit for 3 years and sorted his feet out ASAP when I first got him which took a change of farrier but at 14 he's had years of shoeing that I have no knowledge of. For a TB cross his feet are actually not that bad, although his heels are still a little too under him, but he does have small feet compared with his size at 17HH. In Spirits case the KS was very severe,12 dorsal processes were involved, the first 3, over the wither were fused and the rest touched. I don't think KS this severe could be down to his feet alone but I do think that the front feet have suffered due to the unatural stance from the fused DSP's. The most interesting thing for me was that post op the front shoes were put back on ASAP because of the Navicular but the back feet were left unshod for 12 weeks and he definately sorted out his own hoof balance with loads of excess horn breaking off and even to my very untrained eye looked much more balanced. The minute the back shoes went back on his windgalls came back with a vengance and the frogs shrivelled up and this has been circling through my mind ever since but at first I convinced myself that he wouldn't be able to cope without them on the roads and stoney tracks. Can I ask how you know if the horn is strong enough to take the shoes off?
 
I've read this thread with interest as my TB is similar. He was diagnosed with navicular last year. He has been sound with eggbars and a bute since but has now been lame for the last few weeks on his right front (the worst foot effected).

The vet is coming next Tuesday to see him but I have been thinking of trying him barefoot.
My only worry is he is a TB and a real wimp, unfortunately Rockley Farm is too far away and too expensive in the long term to send him there with not 100% chance of being right.

(Without hijacking your thread OP!) I was wondering what the difference was between farriers trimming your horses foot and barefoot specialists? Are they trained? Or is it something people can just set up kind of like the back mans etc who arn't qualified!!!!

The other thing that worries me with barefoot is every vet and my farrier are all dead against it..? Which makes it difficult to go against the advice of professionals I trust but I will try it need be as a last resort.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top