Navicular - At what point do you decide to try barefoot??

Being a TB or TB x does not prevent a horse from having good feet. The genetics argument has no proof and IMO the poor feet on a TB is a mixture of a lifetime of poor management and breed apathy. There are plenty of successful barefoot TBs out there - at worst they just need more care than the non TBs.

Rant over:)

Regarding trimming - a barefoot horse needs very careful trimming. It isn't about knowing what to trim. It's about knowing what NOT to trim.

Enthusiastic chopping and rasping will keep a lame horse lame. Sympathetic management and conservative trimming from your hoof care provider will allow the horse to make the changes he needs to and facilitate healing rather than working against him.

Be it a farrier or a trimmer - the right person will make all the difference.
I like the UKNHCP and AANHCP methods. But the person I'd choose needs to have a client list of happy people before I'd consider them. Shiny websites mean nothing to me;)
 
annabel2009 said:
The other thing that worries me with barefoot is every vet and my farrier are all dead against it..? Which makes it difficult to go against the advice of professionals I trust but I will try it need be as a last resort.
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I know, its difficult, but the world is changing and eventually vets are going to have to be more open minded about it as the way to resolve so many foot related issues.
 
Oberon said:
Being a TB or TB x does not prevent a horse from having good feet. The genetics argument has no proof and IMO the poor feet on a TB is a mixture of a lifetime of poor management and breed apathy. There are plenty of successful barefoot TBs out there - at worst they just need more care than the non TBs.

Rant over:)

Regarding trimming - a barefoot horse needs very careful trimming. It isn't about knowing what to trim. It's about knowing what NOT to trim.

Enthusiastic chopping and rasping will keep a lame horse lame. Sympathetic management and conservative trimming from your hoof care provider will allow the horse to make the changes he needs to and facilitate healing rather than working against him.

Be it a farrier or a trimmer - the right person will make all the difference.
I like the UKNHCP and AANHCP methods. But the person I'd choose needs to have a client list of happy people before I'd consider them. Shiny websites mean nothing to me;)
Click to expand...

I agree that a TB should not have worse feet than any other horse just because it's a TB, my point was that most of the TB's I know have no heel at all and are long in the toe with flat soles. This could be for many reasons, poor management, or poor farriery, the latter of which is very difficult to put right as it is difficult to argue a point with someone who has far more knowledge and experience than you and by arguing a point you ultimately upset someone who has an active role in keeping your horse sound, healthy and happy. My point was that as far as a shod horse goes, Spirits feet a look great to my untrained eye, and if he didn't have problems it probably wouldn't have occured to me to think of trying barefoot, call it blindness or naivity or sitting in a comfort zone! But after nursing him through the kissing spines op, which has taken me through a steep learning curve and a lot of thinking outside the box I have become more holistic and open minded about his care and management. The whole point of the post was to ask advice and find other peolple who had been through similar situations with more knowledge than me to further my own knowledge with a view to going barefoot. Is it so wrong to be frightened of the unknown? Or worry about making things worse not better? Having nursed the grumpiest beast who happens to be my best friend through the last 7 months all I want is the best for him, and my question was posted with the utmost gravity, as to me a complete change in management is not something to be taken lightly or done hastily.

My Rant is also now over

Please do not take my question the wrong way, I did not mean to start a barefoot is best and shod horse owners should be shot sort of thread! Each to their own in my opinion, but my opinion is changing, and I just wanted as much info as possible to allow me to make an informed decision for the welfare of my horse.

I still have many questions, especially about diet, do you get the diet right, then take shoes off? Or just take them off and put the diet right at the same time? How do you know if the feet are in good enough shape to cope? What if anything could go wrong? Can I still keep exercising him during the transition? If I can't then I'm stuffed as the muscle mass over the back will disappear and I'll be back to square one with the KS rehab(Spirit is only allowed a maximum of 14 days off) I really do want to do this, but I'm the sort of person that needs all the facts at the beginning to make changes as smooth as possible.
 
Quote "The other thing that worries me with barefoot is every vet and my farrier are all dead against it..?"



this is simply not true. My vet is not against it and I get a lot of support and enthusiasm for BF. The vet has "grown up" with my BF horses for about the last 15 years and knows what a good foot should look like and that BF horses can simply do the same as shod horses. I suspect vets that are against it simply don't have the experience of working BF horses.

I know without a shadow of a doubt if I said to my vet I wanted to rehab a navicular unshod I would get 100% support and a lot of help.

As for farriers well try this one on the site below.

http://www.rockfoot.com/why.html

he was actually a pretty good farrier when he was shoeing. :D:D
 
Islandspirit,
It is not wrong to be terrified of the unknown and it is very easy for those of us who have unshod horses and who have rehabbed them to say whip the shoes off, feed it, exercise it and life will be fine.
In your position I would be very scared. However with a lot of planning and learning you can make it work.

It is unlikely that you will be able to take the shoes off and get on and ride as normal. There are standard things you will have to do. Shrivelled frogs and thrush will be the first. Nothing to stop you starting now whilst he is shod.
Diet. Again a good place to start is whilst he is shod. You won't know if you have got it right until the shoes are off but there is nothing to stop you improving his diet (if indeed it needs improvement) to a more friendly BF diet. We are talking low sugar, fibre and the correct minerals. Surely that is the same for all horses?

If he goes to Rockley you will simply have a breathing space. In that time you can learn how to care for him. You will be given instructions based on your particular horse.

If you go it alone then I suspect you will need padded boots. If you boot him then he will be in more of a position to be exercised. That doesn't necessarily mean you can get on him on day 1 and there will be no change. Is he fully riedable at the moment? Until his shoes come off it will be very difficult to know how he will react.

The most obvious thing that will go wrong is that he will be very footsore once the shoes come off. This could be due to thrush which can be resolved. It could be due to diet and it may be the case that you will have to make large adjustments immediately. This may include grass restriction so it will be a case of working out, in advance, your living arrangements to see how you would cope with grass restriction. He may just have very sore feet initially till he adjusts. You would have to consider how to get him to his field. Can you avoid stones and gravel or boot him to get him over or throw a carpet over the stones.
Alternatively nothing may happen.

Who is going to trim him? are they going to be available to give you a lot of support?
I am sure this doesn't even begin to answer your questions but hopefully it may give you some encouragement either way.
 
islandspirit said:
I agree that a TB should not have worse feet than any other horse just because it's a TB, my point was that most of the TB's I know have no heel at all and are long in the toe with flat soles. This could be for many reasons, poor management, or poor farriery, the latter of which is very difficult to put right as it is difficult to argue a point with someone who has far more knowledge and experience than you and by arguing a point you ultimately upset someone who has an active role in keeping your horse sound, healthy and happy. My point was that as far as a shod horse goes, Spirits feet a look great to my untrained eye, and if he didn't have problems it probably wouldn't have occured to me to think of trying barefoot, call it blindness or naivity or sitting in a comfort zone! But after nursing him through the kissing spines op, which has taken me through a steep learning curve and a lot of thinking outside the box I have become more holistic and open minded about his care and management. The whole point of the post was to ask advice and find other peolple who had been through similar situations with more knowledge than me to further my own knowledge with a view to going barefoot. Is it so wrong to be frightened of the unknown? Or worry about making things worse not better? Having nursed the grumpiest beast who happens to be my best friend through the last 7 months all I want is the best for him, and my question was posted with the utmost gravity, as to me a complete change in management is not something to be taken lightly or done hastily.

My Rant is also now over

Please do not take my question the wrong way, I did not mean to start a barefoot is best and shod horse owners should be shot sort of thread! Each to their own in my opinion, but my opinion is changing, and I just wanted as much info as possible to allow me to make an informed decision for the welfare of my horse.

I still have many questions, especially about diet, do you get the diet right, then take shoes off? Or just take them off and put the diet right at the same time? How do you know if the feet are in good enough shape to cope? What if anything could go wrong? Can I still keep exercising him during the transition? If I can't then I'm stuffed as the muscle mass over the back will disappear and I'll be back to square one with the KS rehab(Spirit is only allowed a maximum of 14 days off) I really do want to do this, but I'm the sort of person that needs all the facts at the beginning to make changes as smooth as possible.
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Please don't misunderstand me. I'm certainly not having a pop at you in any way.

My 'TB Thing' is a long standing peeve:) . They're not my favourite breed (I'm an Arab fan:p) but I get so frustrated when they are allowed and expected to have some of the worst feet I've ever seen. And (even though it's not very PC of me) I am angry at the farriers and vets for it). It's all so un-necessary:(

That's aside from your present issue - so apologies for unloading my crap in the middle of your thread - being on nights makes me a bit ranty:)

What I do get from you (and I see it a lot) is someone who is desperately looking for an answer, but all you are getting is more questions.

There are a lot of people who can't get their head around it all and would rather continue with a lame horse than take the shoes off.

The fact that you are willing to look outside the box, however scary it may be, and possibly stand alone from the professionals, puts me in awe of you and all the other barefoot rehab owners out there.

I apologise if I offended you - it was certainly not my intention. I just wish there wasn't this shod v barefoot wedge because it just makes things hard for people facing your situation.

Keep the questions coming (here and on the UKNHCP forum) and if any of us 'Barefoot Taliban' can help, we will try.

Let's make a start....

1) What is he fed now?
2) Do you have any pics of his feet (at ground level, front and side and also of his sole)
3) Which area of the country are you in?
 
Oberon said:
Please don't misunderstand me. I'm certainly not having a pop at you in any way.

My 'TB Thing' is a long standing peeve:) . They're not my favourite breed (I'm an Arab fan:p) but I get so frustrated when they are allowed and expected to have some of the worst feet I've ever seen. And (even though it's not very PC of me) I am angry at the farriers and vets for it). It's all so un-necessary:(

That's aside from your present issue - so apologies for unloading my crap in the middle of your thread - being on nights makes me a bit ranty:)

What I do get from you (and I see it a lot) is someone who is desperately looking for an answer, but all you are getting is more questions.

There are a lot of people who can't get their head around it all and would rather continue with a lame horse than take the shoes off.

The fact that you are willing to look outside the box, however scary it may be, and possibly stand alone from the professionals, puts me in awe of you and all the other barefoot rehab owners out there.

I apologise if I offended you - it was certainly not my intention. I just wish there wasn't this shod v barefoot wedge because it just makes things hard for people facing your situation.

Keep the questions coming (here and on the UKNHCP forum) and if any of us 'Barefoot Taliban' can help, we will try.

Let's make a start....

1) What is he fed now?
2) Do you have any pics of his feet (at ground level, front and side and also of his sole)
3) Which area of the country are you in?
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Hi Oberon, I should also apologise, although I have ridden for nearly 40 years, I've only been lucky enough to own my own beast for 3 of those and boy did I choose the most difficult horse for the first 1! And those 3 years have been a steep learning curve. The rehab for the KS should have taken 12 weeks but because of the severity and complications with muscle atrophy I was only able to get back on board last week after 25 weeks which is when he went lame with the roadwork. Before that we had either lunged in the school or he was turned out and any gait abnormalites have been put down to the back.

to answer your questions and the answers are very gratefully received, Spirit is fed Dengie Alfa A mollasses free, top spec senior, magnitude and at the moment Cavalor Muscle Force and ad lib steamed hay. I haven't got pictures but will take them tomorrow as it would be interesting to hear everyones thoughts - please don't slam me! ( I can see his back feet are not as good after having the shoes back on), he is about three weeks into this set and is growing very quickly at the mo. Finally, I am in Newton Abbot in South Devon, and he grazes on an equine pasture mix.

Advice is gratefully received, thank you
 
Hi, my horse is another Rockley re-hab. I, like you was very, very uncertain of which route to take when my boy was diagnosed with navicular, the only thing I was certain of was that I would not subject him to months of box rest if there was another way.
I came here first, asking for advice and barefoot came up again and again. Initially my vet and farrier were dead against it as my horse 'was never going to cope barefoot'. They weren't against barefoot as an option, just not for my boy as his feet 'needed constant balancing and support' due to his confirmational issues etc. Basically they have been proved wrong...
At the same time, my friends 19 year old mare had gone lame again after almost a year of remedial shoes - an MRI showed extensive DDFT damage, bone bruises, navicular changes...the list goes on. Again the vet said no, box rest/tildren/shockwave/more wedges/pads are the answer... neither of us listened and both horses were sent to Rockley. It really isn't expensive when you consider how much it costs to keep a horse even on a diy basis. My friend had her costs covered by insurance but I wasn't so lucky.
We now have, three months after their return, two happy and sound horses. Both are going better, standing better and behaving better than ever before. Both are much better muscled, more soft and supple through their backs and a huge girthing problem I had with mine has vanished. Both horses are set to compete again this year, and none of it would have happened without sending them to Rockley.

It hasn't been easy, and the diet is essential along with restricting grass in our cases. we mineral balance too. Sending my horse to Rockley took everything I had financially and mentally as he has never been away from me since he was born, and I am always broke :rolleyes: but it was undoubtedly the best decision.
Personally, I would feel worried to go it alone unless I had the support of others who had done the same, but I maybe just a wimp :o its not easy and I have had setbacks after a trim that was too invasive. Nic at Rockley is a saint, always there to answer q's and give support.
 
I take it I've been conned on the price1 :-)
I'm going to need help I think on ingredients, I'll check the muscle force tonight but I don't think I have a Topspec Senior bag and trawling the Internet hasn't helped, I can't find the ingredients anywhere!!! Can anyone help out?
 
Just looking back at my vets reports from the original work ups in June '09, Spirit was basically between 1 and 3 tenths lame on and off for 5 months. Initially there was a medial to lateral imbalance to the left fore and positive hoof response over both inner heels, outer wall longer than inner wall on left foot, digital palmer nerve block to left fore results positive. Shod in eggbars and pulled off twice in a few weeks and more lame on right fore then shod
traditionally with equipak. Then had coffin joint blocked, negative result next visit navicular bursa, 90% improvement. Feet were then xrayed, solar surface of pedal bone horizontal, broken back hoof pastern axis. Re xrayed 3 months later, increased sole depth and marginally elevated palmer processes?? 2 months later lame again, improved foot confirmation but tendancy to collapse inner heel if left fore and loss of natural flare to outer wall. Was sound again after about 4 months and stayed that way till brought back into work 2 weeks ago. Thought the extra info may be of help, going to take pics tonight
 
ok. here goes, pictures of Spirits feet, be gentle with me! :-)
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Very contracted all round with multiple event lines.

Shoes off to allow decontraction, diet change, rehabilitation schedule

Get boots that fit well and someone experienced to help you.
 
Event lines are often caused by diet issues (too much rich grass or sugar or use of wormers) they can also be created by abscesses as there is more blood flowing to the foot, and sometimes by freezing weather (or that seemed to be the case with my gang)
 
That's weird, Spirit has only been wormed once in the last 2 years, and moved yards 6 months ago onto equine meadow pasture. Has steamed hay, and as far as I am aware low sugar feed. Confuzzled.com
 
islandspirit said:
That's weird, Spirit has only been wormed once in the last 2 years, and moved yards 6 months ago onto equine meadow pasture. Has steamed hay, and as far as I am aware low sugar feed. Confuzzled.com
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Perhaps he is lacking other minerals in his diet? Have you had your forage analysed? perhaps any grass causes him issues?
 
I haven't had the forage analysed, where is the best place to send it? Plus, how do you know what to do with the results? I spoke to a barefoot trimmer who is also a remedial farrier yesterday who is Going to come and see us for an initial assesment but I have to have my vets permission. Another quick question, I have pretty much got my head round shoes but now I'm faced with all sorts of different trimming techniques, how do you know who to go for? There must be good and bad trimmers just as there are farriers and as i'm going to need a great deal of help and don't really know what I'm doing, I could end up in a right old mess!!
 
islandspirit said:
I haven't had the forage analysed, where is the best place to send it? Plus, how do you know what to do with the results? I spoke to a barefoot trimmer who is also a remedial farrier yesterday who is Going to come and see us for an initial assesment but I have to have my vets permission. Another quick question, I have pretty much got my head round shoes but now I'm faced with all sorts of different trimming techniques, how do you know who to go for? There must be good and bad trimmers just as there are farriers and as i'm going to need a great deal of help and don't really know what I'm doing, I could end up in a right old mess!!
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I believe Forageplus are very good and will tell you what you need. You should also try posting here http://uknhcp.myfastforum.org/forum2.php as they are very helpful on all subjects about going barefoot and healthy hooves:)
 
islandspirit said:
I haven't had the forage analysed, where is the best place to send it? Plus, how do you know what to do with the results? I spoke to a barefoot trimmer who is also a remedial farrier yesterday who is Going to come and see us for an initial assesment but I have to have my vets permission. Another quick question, I have pretty much got my head round shoes but now I'm faced with all sorts of different trimming techniques, how do you know who to go for? There must be good and bad trimmers just as there are farriers and as i'm going to need a great deal of help and don't really know what I'm doing, I could end up in a right old mess!!
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hi, as I live pretty close to you I have PM'd you in case I can help
 
islandspirit said:
That's weird, Spirit has only been wormed once in the last 2 years, and moved yards 6 months ago onto equine meadow pasture. Has steamed hay, and as far as I am aware low sugar feed. Confuzzled.com
Click to expand...

Steaming hay won't remove sugar. Sugar is removed by osmosis so the hay needs to be immersed in lots of water for several hours and then rinsed. If the hay is too tightly packed into the soaking container, so there isn't much water then the sugar removal will be reduced significantly.
 
I'm not a professional trimmer, so I'm not an expert. But the feet don't look too bad to me.

They look like feet coming out of a summer at grass, but the heels look pretty good for a shod horse.

IMO, they look OK, but are obviously not ok as he is lame:). The person who is tasked with trimming him needs to know how to respect the hoof. The horse needs to be allowed to grow what he needs, where he needs it and for the trimmer to understand the difference between dietry/infected deviation and natural, horse-grown deviation.
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/04/symmetry-twisted-legs-and-strengthening.html

It's not important to follow a certain type of trim, it's important to be sympathetic and conservative with the trim.
http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2011/09/application-of-celery-and-how-to-tell.html

Regarding diet, forage analysis can be done from ForagePlus or Dodson and Horrell. Then you need someone to recommend what you use to balance the forage. ForagePlus do it all. I used my trimmer who also does it.

If you haven't got an analysis - then you can use Pro Hoof or Equimins Advance Concentrate.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....3407424&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT#ht_1466wt_905
http://www.equimins-online.com/acatalog/Equimins_Advance_Concentrate.html

I've been feeding my old boy his balanced minerals for the last month, now he comes in at night. I am totally astounded by how tight and neat his white line now is. It's amazing how it works. Just a teaspoon of copper and a teaspoon of zinc a day thrown into some Fast Fibre and PING...instant health!
 
Oberon said:
I've been feeding my old boy his balanced minerals for the last month, now he comes in at night. I am totally astounded by how tight and neat his white line now is. It's amazing how it works. Just a teaspoon of copper and a teaspoon of zinc a day thrown into some Fast Fibre and PING...instant health!
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Emphasis here is on BALANCED folks, Oberon knows her food is low in copper/zinc or too high in stuff that stops copper/zinc being absorbed.

Copper fed when you do not have copper deficiency is a poison :(
 
cptrayes said:
Emphasis here is on BALANCED folks, Oberon knows her food is low in copper/zinc or too high in stuff that stops copper/zinc being absorbed.

Copper fed when you do not have copper deficiency is a poison :(
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Sorry. Yes, my bad:p

I have had an analysis done and I had my minerals balanced from it for my own horse's needs.

It's not advisable to add anything blindly:)
 
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